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[CSM8] CSM8 Town Hall #3: November 16 1900 EVE time

First post
Author
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-11-13 21:17:00 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you an elected representative of the people who play Eve, not a player in this case.
It does not matter if they hurt your poor feelings.
Answer the damn questions, all questions.
Do your job. Don't just grab the lobbed softball ones.

Unless of course, the CSM is just a lobby group for special interest groups, after all.
Then I understand your logic.

And btw, no one considers you a joke.
You are far too dangerous for the future health of Eve and CCP to ever be considered a joke.



Sadly I disagree. We are always players of the game . . . hell I know of folks who don't even have active characters who are still nominally players of the game. We are also representatives, yes. Damn good group of them, the ones I deal with regularly.

As to 'answer the questions' I was under the impression that this was a collection for questions for the Town Hall

/me checks the forum OP . . . yup

So this is not where we answer your question but collect them for the meeting this weekend. Unless they are too easy to answer or too tinfoil to chew on (did you just shudder?)

Now if after the Townhall we have not answered questions due to time limitations etc than bring them up again and ask for an answer here or in a new thread. If nobody else answers them then I will although I do not know if the answer will be up to your expectations or standards.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Frying Doom
#42 - 2013-11-13 21:32:15 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
How can they answer the question when the question is based on a false assumption? Between the warp-speed changes, interceptor changes, interdictor changes, new SOE ships, new ghost sites, new Marauder functionality....


Wait, what am I forgetting...Oh yeah! Deployables that have the ability to COMPLETELY RESHAPE PVP. Such as

-refitting on the fly
-changing t3 mods in space
-denying non-covops hotdrops
-stealing moongoo income from AFK POS owners
-tractor ALL the loot


AND I DIDN'T EVEN GET TO THE NEW HISEC POCO CHANGES UNTIL ABOUT THREE WORDS AGO!

Now compare that to every other expansion we have ever got, it is a crappy little patch

especially when you consider CCP has increased its Development budget by 50%

It sure as hell does not look like that budget went on EvE.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#43 - 2013-11-13 22:07:25 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Galen Darksmith wrote:
How can they answer the question when the question is based on a false assumption? Between the warp-speed changes, interceptor changes, interdictor changes, new SOE ships, new ghost sites, new Marauder functionality....


Wait, what am I forgetting...Oh yeah! Deployables that have the ability to COMPLETELY RESHAPE PVP. Such as

-refitting on the fly
-changing t3 mods in space
-denying non-covops hotdrops
-stealing moongoo income from AFK POS owners
-tractor ALL the loot


AND I DIDN'T EVEN GET TO THE NEW HISEC POCO CHANGES UNTIL ABOUT THREE WORDS AGO!

Now compare that to every other expansion we have ever got, it is a crappy little patch

especially when you consider CCP has increased its Development budget by 50%

It sure as hell does not look like that budget went on EvE.


Well, I also left out the RLML rebalance, the addition of RHMLs, reskins for half the command ships, the ISIS system and you know what, screw this. If I can't even remember all the features of an expansion in one go, I'm sure as **** not complaining about "lack of content."

If you want to know where that extra 50% went to, designing new ship models from scratch ain't cheap. And I doubt they coded in an entirely new deployable object system (that is likely being groomed to be the backbone of the new POS system) over the course of a lunch break either.

Really, you'd get a lot more traction if you actually stated what you want out of an expansion. I seriously have no idea what it is that you like or want, and I'll bet the CSM don't either. What do you want to see in an expansion?

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#44 - 2013-11-13 22:14:45 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
What do you want to see in an expansion?


He doesn't give a **** what's in the expansion. He just wants attention.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-11-13 22:23:02 UTC
Endovior wrote:
I just want opinions, from people who are in a position to have especially informed opinions, without the need to reveal any of the specifics that inform those opinions.

This is a really good post in all particulars. I've covered a lot of what I think about this topic here:

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-first-six-months.html

That said, it also deserves some expanding on. The basic answer to your question is "it depends." If you buy into CCP Seagull's vision of space exploration and capsuleer ownership of space that she laid out at Fanfest and consistently since then, then I think you have good reason to be very excited about developments over the next few years. Think about a movie or TV show or book that you like that had a long slow gradual build-up, laying groundwork as it went for several MAJOR pay-offs at the end -- Babylon 5, say, or Raiders of the Lost Ark. If you buy into the space colonization vision, then I can safely say that you have several HOLY **** moments ahead of you.

On the other hand, if you do not buy into the vision, then with one exception I think you may find the next few expansions to be not your cup of tea. A few scraps will fall from the table onto everyone's plate, but EVE is definitely on a journey for the next three years and you're ither part of it or you're not. As I mentioned though, there is one sizeable exception that doesn't necessarily follow the space colonization vision that CCP is nevertheless going to do that I personally am quite excited about but which is quite NDA. But I suspect CCP will start letting details about this one out soon(tm).

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

Frying Doom
#46 - 2013-11-13 22:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Galen Darksmith wrote:
Really, you'd get a lot more traction if you actually stated what you want out of an expansion. I seriously have no idea what it is that you like or want, and I'll bet the CSM don't either. What do you want to see in an expansion?

TBH mostly the basic 3

Fix POS
Fix Sov
Fix corporation management

on top of that, more PvE content for the PvE players, actual missions, not more monty haul features like Incursions. Not piles of features no one wants and no one who actually uses them now would like.

Also thanks Jester your post has actually made the most sense. I however do not follow CCP visions, mostly due to the number of times they have had a vision and then scrapped it.

The vision its self is good but if we are going to get more of the same for the next few expansions, it will be kind of disappointing.
Not to mention that features like Hi sec POCOs being player run will just annoy the few hi-sec PI indy types we have now, they will either be locked out from PI or Taxed to death and like most Indy players I have seen over the years, they will not PvP to get the POCO they will just give it up.

I suppose the big question is 'Why should we believe CCPs vision, this time, when we have been down this road so many times before?'

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#47 - 2013-11-14 06:16:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
In anticipation of seagull's announcements of the "improvements to empire space ", which I am certain involve "more player control", and Trebor's (edit: sorry, meant Jester, the null sec PvP fanatic) ominous comments of "you are with us, or you are not", I must ask, whose idea was it to give the PoCo tax income streams to player groups? Was it the CSM, or CCP?

And what person, specifically?

*Snip* Please refrain from spreading baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal

In fact, I would like a detailed list of the persons who made suggestions on the ruination of any part of high sec, be it CSM or CCP.

Surely, after a game mechanic is changed, why NDA whose idea it was?
Especially on the CSM side.
Under any democratic government, motions by elected representatives are a matter of open record.
That is one of the basis on knowing who to vote for in future elections.

Of course, I can imagine that one or 2 of the CSM may want to hide behind the curtains of the NDA when some of these nerfs to high sec are announced.
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#48 - 2013-11-14 07:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
In anticipation of seagull's announcements of the "improvements to empire space ", which I am certain involve "more player control", and Trebor's (edit: sorry, meant Jester, the null sec PvP fanatic) ominous comments of "you are with us, or you are not", I must ask, whose idea was it to give the PoCo tax income streams to player groups? Was it the CSM, or CCP?

And what person, specifically?

*Snip* Please refrain from spreading baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal

In fact, I would like a detailed list of the persons who made suggestions on the ruination of any part of high sec, be it CSM or CCP.

Surely, after a game mechanic is changed, why NDA whose idea it was?
Especially on the CSM side.
Under any democratic government, motions by elected representatives are a matter of open record.
That is one of the basis on knowing who to vote for in future elections.

Of course, I can imagine that one or 2 of the CSM may want to hide behind the curtains of the NDA when some of these nerfs to high sec are announced.


First off, my understanding is that the player owned POCO thing was CCP's initiative that the CSM liked. It established consistency across the board and put more power in the hands of the players.

Second, this doesn't "ruin" hisec. Unless you're bound and determined to cede any initiative to those with the courage/strength/wit to build their own sandcastle, you are just as capable at carving out a place for you and yours as anyone else.

Third, the whole idea behind Rubicon and future expansions is taking more out of the hands of the Empires and putting more in the hands of the players. The sky isn't even the limit, we're talking the universe here.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#49 - 2013-11-14 08:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Ripard Teg wrote:
Endovior wrote:
I just want opinions, from people who are in a position to have especially informed opinions, without the need to reveal any of the specifics that inform those opinions.

This is a really good post in all particulars. I've covered a lot of what I think about this topic here:

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-first-six-months.html

That said, it also deserves some expanding on. The basic answer to your question is "it depends." If you buy into CCP Seagull's vision of space exploration and capsuleer ownership of space that she laid out at Fanfest and consistently since then, then I think you have good reason to be very excited about developments over the next few years. Think about a movie or TV show or book that you like that had a long slow gradual build-up, laying groundwork as it went for several MAJOR pay-offs at the end -- Babylon 5, say, or Raiders of the Lost Ark. If you buy into the space colonization vision, then I can safely say that you have several HOLY **** moments ahead of you.

On the other hand, if you do not buy into the vision, then with one exception I think you may find the next few expansions to be not your cup of tea.
A few scraps will fall from the table onto everyone's plate, but EVE is definitely on a journey for the next three years and you're ither part of it or you're not. As I mentioned though, there is one sizeable exception that doesn't necessarily follow the space colonization vision that CCP is nevertheless going to do that I personally am quite excited about but which is quite NDA. But I suspect CCP will start letting details about this one out soon(tm).


The bolded part is the deal.Tell me that you buy the space colonization thing and i'll be able to claim that at least one person i know buys it.

Very early before Rubicon was announced, I started nicknaming the new development plan as "the Hallelujah Plan", with a satirical intent. My stance was that the new plan was so good that people would sing (not) "Hallelujah" over it, but also was a geeky pun on a spoof western titled "The Hallelujah trail".

Enter the first lines on the film's main theme:

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah

Don't know where we're goin' or where we've been
Hallelujah trail
It's written in the dust and blown by the wind
Hallelujah trail


And here we are.

CCP Seagull is adressing the wrong issue. People are regularly leaving the game and the influx of new players is having trouble to cope with the outflux of burned out players.

Most of the casualties, as far as I can tell from my experience, are from hisec space. There is a plague that kills players beyond the two year/30 million SP mark, once they've mastered everything in hisec that could interest them, have made their attempts with other space, and found nothing of their liking nor anything else left to do.

The true killer of game population is how hisec is deemed a starter zone forever. "Leave hisec or leave the game" is killing EVE population better than any Incarnageddon ever could.

We don't quit because there's not enough "other places" to go, but because the space we adapted to is too shallow and unrewarding FOR NO REASON. We don't need gold in the hills, we need city improvements.

As we like hisec as it is. We don't want other space in our space. We want something EVE-ish for our space.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Endovior
PFU Consortium
#50 - 2013-11-14 09:12:28 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
...ruination of high sec...

...democratic government...


Haha, no. Firstly, tax pressures drive the market. Even if nullsec were to conquer all the hisec planets (unlikely; RvB will put up a fight for damn sure), the smart money is in leaving your situation more or less exactly as it is. POCOs are still open for trade, you don't pay an ISK more, and the only difference is that the money you pay goes to fund our alliances and our operations instead of getting disintegrated. Sure, there will be a few assholes who shut down planets because trolling, but there should still be plenty of room available for you to do your thing. Again, because RvB, if nothing else. I'm actually really interested to see what'll happen now that there's actual stuff in hisec for the hisec power blocs to get involved in defending... could make the hi/null difference a little less drastic, and in any event will result in regular hisec fleetfights for the edification of newbies.

Secondly, and more importantly, the CSM aren't a government. They're an advisory group. They give feedback, they don't issue orders. And you don't have the right to get anything in particular from them, though open, available, and communicative CSMs are definitely to be preferred. CCP is the "government", and they're not a democracy, and not obligated to listen to any of your votes except the ones you make with your wallet. That said, if you're still angry (why? and about what, specifically? can you put that in the form of a question?) and want someone to blame, specific 'who said what' should be available sooner or later, in the minutes, when they get released. That ball's in CCP's court, which is much larger than the CSM's, so they can't tell you when, but the answer is probably "basically everyone", since the overall idea here is nowhere near as dire as you seem to think it is.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
If you buy into the space colonization vision, then I can safely say that you have several HOLY **** moments ahead of you.


Tell me that you buy the space colonization thing and i'll be able to claim that at least one person i know buys it.


Speaking as a vet who resubbed specifically because of that vision (specifically, the video presentation about the whole idea), I buy it. In fact, I bought it with cash. Personally, I find it quite reassuring to hear that the next few expansions are explicitly planned as building up like this, because player control of systems and player-driven colonization sounds like exactly the kind of adventure I want to have.

But then again, I'm a nullsec guy. My game is all about flying around in fleets smashing up other fleets, in order to put flags in space or take them down. More things to put flags on is something I'm interested in. If that's not the case for you... I shrug. What DO you want? What would make your hisec game worth sticking around for? What kind of things do you envision hisec having in and of itself that would make it specifically interesting?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2013-11-14 09:57:55 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


The bolded part is the deal.Tell me that you buy the space colonization thing and i'll be able to claim that at least one person i know buys it.


Two people.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#52 - 2013-11-14 14:00:58 UTC
Endovior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
...ruination of high sec...

...democratic government...


Haha, no. Firstly, tax pressures drive the market. Even if nullsec were to conquer all the hisec planets (unlikely; RvB will put up a fight for damn sure), the smart money is in leaving your situation more or less exactly as it is. POCOs are still open for trade, you don't pay an ISK more, and the only difference is that the money you pay goes to fund our alliances and our operations instead of getting disintegrated. Sure, there will be a few assholes who shut down planets because trolling, but there should still be plenty of room available for you to do your thing. Again, because RvB, if nothing else. I'm actually really interested to see what'll happen now that there's actual stuff in hisec for the hisec power blocs to get involved in defending... could make the hi/null difference a little less drastic, and in any event will result in regular hisec fleetfights for the edification of newbies.

Secondly, and more importantly, the CSM aren't a government. They're an advisory group. They give feedback, they don't issue orders. And you don't have the right to get anything in particular from them, though open, available, and communicative CSMs are definitely to be preferred. CCP is the "government", and they're not a democracy, and not obligated to listen to any of your votes except the ones you make with your wallet. That said, if you're still angry (why? and about what, specifically? can you put that in the form of a question?) and want someone to blame, specific 'who said what' should be available sooner or later, in the minutes, when they get released. That ball's in CCP's court, which is much larger than the CSM's, so they can't tell you when, but the answer is probably "basically everyone", since the overall idea here is nowhere near as dire as you seem to think it is.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
If you buy into the space colonization vision, then I can safely say that you have several HOLY **** moments ahead of you.


Tell me that you buy the space colonization thing and i'll be able to claim that at least one person i know buys it.


Speaking as a vet who resubbed specifically because of that vision (specifically, the video presentation about the whole idea), I buy it. In fact, I bought it with cash. Personally, I find it quite reassuring to hear that the next few expansions are explicitly planned as building up like this, because player control of systems and player-driven colonization sounds like exactly the kind of adventure I want to have.

But then again, I'm a nullsec guy. My game is all about flying around in fleets smashing up other fleets, in order to put flags in space or take them down. More things to put flags on is something I'm interested in. If that's not the case for you... I shrug. What DO you want? What would make your hisec game worth sticking around for? What kind of things do you envision hisec having in and of itself that would make it specifically interesting?


I've written fragments of it over many threads, but the design foundation would be to allow the players to interact with the NPC empires, namely corrupting NPC agents in order to play actions on other players, either positive or negative. A part of the system would be player-generated PvE missions whose turnout would influence the corrupted NPC agents and thus the power of their player masters.

Everything with thousands of words of caveats and good sense i've scattered all over the forums, so spare the obvious dangers (FAI, players farming their own missions) because i've already figured a counter to them (random anonymous missions being bought from a NPC market).

The question is, PvP can take many ways. There is a whole universe of drama in the lore that doesn't even mentions ships.

And hisec and the empires are the place to play that drama in game... and accidentally extend EVE beyond its niche.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2013-11-14 15:51:14 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
:words:


I want you to read Seagull's update here. While the images here and in other venues (her Fanfest presentation for example) certainly give the impression of new space, I want you to go ahead and tell me what it is that gives you the idea that it's exclusively about this hypothetical new space, because frankly, it's not. Distill it down and its about getting more players out in space doing things, having effects, everywhere.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2013-11-14 17:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I must ask, whose idea was it to give the PoCo tax income streams to player groups?
Where else should they go? And what do you mean by “given”? They're being introduced, not handed out.

Either the income streams exist — in which case there is only one possible recipient: players — or they don't exist at all.

Quote:
*Snip* Please refrain from spreading baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal
…and this is based on, now removed baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal.

Quote:
Of course, I can imagine that one or 2 of the CSM may want to hide behind the curtains of the NDA when some of these nerfs to high sec are announced.
What nerfs are you talking about?
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#55 - 2013-11-14 20:08:38 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
:words:


I want you to read Seagull's update here. While the images here and in other venues (her Fanfest presentation for example) certainly give the impression of new space, I want you to go ahead and tell me what it is that gives you the idea that it's exclusively about this hypothetical new space, because frankly, it's not. Distill it down and its about getting more players out in space doing things, having effects, everywhere.


I already read it as soon as it was released.


This was my answer:


>>Rubicon - towards the future of EVE Online

EVE Online is not just a game - it's one of the world's most ambitious living works of science fiction. The EVE universe is a canvas for some of the most hard core PvP action in the gaming world, player driven stories of epic dimensions that mirror humanity in both amazing and disturbing ways, and individual stories of exploring this world and achieving personal goals.

As we take the next steps on our journey with EVE Online, we will continue to create an amazing, demanding game experience that challenges intelligent people to master what the universe offers. But now we are also questioning old truths and the rules that govern the New Eden universe, and we are doing it in line with the secret plans we've been readying since the controversial launch of Incarna. That vision is about giving players, in the form of their immortal capsuleer representations, more power over this universe than ever before. This journey starts with EVE Online: Rubicon, and will unfold over the next several expansions to EVE Online.

We ask you to imagine with us. Think about an ancient, consistent dream of humans: absolute power. Imagine conquering the stars and bending life itself to our will. Such gargantuan efforts are built on the hard work of science, engineering, innovation and industry - the same components also used to wreak terrifying destruction. The duality of that cycle, creation and destruction through technical advancements, fuels the EVE universe and we will amplify it in EVE going forward.

In the universe of EVE Online, military and industrial might re-emerged following the dark ages of the EVE Gate collapse, growing into four human civilizations that rose to the stars: the Amarr Empire, the Gallente Federation, the Caldari State and the Minmatar Republic. Yet the capsuleers, the immortal pilots of EVE's most powerful spaceships, are becoming a stronger and stronger force of their own. They will not settle with what has been served to them thus far. EVE Online: Rubicon is the first step beyond a point of no return, on a dangerous path to ascension with consequences that neither capsuleers nor players can predict.

Think about building political allegiances and about destroying them.

Think about the rise of the immortal capsuleer, taking over what the human Empires used to control.

Imagine capsuleer corporations, rising in power and capabilities, flying their own colors and using their might to take over whole planets. Imagine disrupting what someone else took over, through cunning or force. Imagine profiting from the interstellar-scale commerce of planets, systems and constelaltions as capsuleers permeate politics and seize power.

Imagine what could happen if capsuleers truly exercised their economic might, and were no longer bound to obedience to the established powers.

We are on a long term plan to deliver on what we imagine for EVE Online and New Eden. With Rubicon we continue our efforts to improve and balance the game, to support our player community, and give you the unique sandbox science fiction experience that EVE Online provides.

As capsuleers, you will find the first keys to the future.

Be part of the game. Be part of the universe. Be part of the story.

CCP Your dreams - not a member of CCP>>

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2013-11-14 20:29:12 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I already read it as soon as it was released.


This was my answer:
Your vision lacks vision.
Torijace
The Upside Down
Forfeiture
#57 - 2013-11-15 04:57:52 UTC
A few questions that I have been curious about the last few months.

Has their been any talks between CSM and CCP about the economy of eve and the balance of isk sinks vers faucets

With the new changes like the high sec POCOs has their been any talk of player owned stations in high sec or low sec replacing some or all of high current stations.

On the thought of stations and eve as a brutal universe has CSM or CCP ever considered destructible player outposts

What is CSMs thought on allowing alliances to tax similar and in addition to corporations?

Whats the most expensive thing a CSM member has sacrificed to BOB (for those wormholing CSMs)
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#58 - 2013-11-15 07:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I already read it as soon as it was released.


This was my answer:
Your vision lacks vision.


Your trolling lacks wit.

Mynna apparently didn't read the letter and she's convinced that it talks about something else than new space colonization and the destruction of hisec...



...empires.Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2013-11-15 08:28:59 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Your trolling lacks wit.
No. It lacks trolling.
The point remains: what you're describing is not really a future visions since it rather describes the game today. Seagull, on the other hand, presents a vision for the future.

Quote:
Mynna apparently
…isn't me, so what he said has no bearing on the matter.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#60 - 2013-11-15 08:49:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Your trolling lacks wit.
No. It lacks trolling.
The point remains: what you're describing is not really a future visions since it rather describes the game today. Seagull, on the other hand, presents a vision for the future.


A fair point. Politics is something you do with people. Eve is intensely political; the politics are supported by the game mechanics, but take place largely on a metagame level, in negotiations between corporations and alliances. A political minigame that you play with robots would be neat... but it'd never really be a patch on the real politics of EVE.