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Ships faster than Missiles

Author
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-11-02 05:12:18 UTC
Can anybody give me an explanation on why ships travel faster than light missiles? I can see how frigates can travel faster than cruise missiles or torpedos, but faster than (anti-frigate) light missiles or rockets?


I just had a Ares orbit my Caracal at 20k and was going 7k m/s. My Caracal has a 55km range with CN light missiles and is unable to touch the Ares with its missiles. It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.




So. Any gameplay/lore reason why anti-frigate/frigate-based missiles are so slow?
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-11-02 08:47:36 UTC
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#3 - 2013-11-02 10:01:38 UTC
As I recall, Lights from a Cara' Assault launchers are capable of doing something of the order of 11km/s (or did the Cara lose its velocity bonus in Tiericide? I have a nagging suspicion that I recall something about it but I haven't flown one for a long while).
That sort of speed is really difficult to achieve in frigates, and really, really hard to maintain in an orbit around a Cara (particularly one which is manoeuvring deliberately to counter a frigate's orbit.
Even at 7km/s the simple orbit can be broken (forcing significant speed changes and a simultaneous volley of everything in the air at the time... which hurts a lot) and the manually piloted orbit requires very significant pilot skill. I would also summise that the Ares in this situation was not alone and was supported by gang boosts.

The Cara (and to an even greater degree, the Cerb) does make a fantastic 'frig umberella' - but it isn't an omnipotent hard-counter.
Chessur
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#4 - 2013-11-02 10:27:27 UTC
With out any missile projection implants, or hydraulic bay thrusters, light missiles only travel around 6.5 /6.7 KS. Because missile sin eve always need to curve around, and strike the back of a fast moving ship- many linked, snaked, and nanod frigs can out run them, unless you have built in ship velocity bonuses, implants or thrusters.
Dato Koppla
We Aim To MisBehave
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#5 - 2013-11-02 10:35:20 UTC
An all V Caracal with faction light missiles make them travel 8.43km/s which should be enough to catch most frigs but as mentioned because of the nature of how EvE missiles work, they tend to fall short if the enemy is going around the speed the Ares you were fighting was going, however not many ships go that fast and they often need to be linked/snaked up the wahzoo to outspeed light missiles.
Layla Firoue
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-11-02 10:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Layla Firoue
Verity Sovereign wrote:
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line


Theoretical yes, practical, no.

For a mach 2.5+ capable fighter to outrun a AIM 9 it has to travel close to mach 2.5 to begin with to be able to outrun the missile since the missile accelerates way faster than the fighter.
If the fighter is traveling slower he can not out run the missile even if he hits his afterburner, since it would take him too long to gain sufficient speed, which would be a bad idea to begin with since it makes him just a more yummy target.
There might be a circumstantial scenario where the missile is fired from far enough and the fighter is already traveling fast enough to keep distance long enough for the missile to run out of fuel.
Hence why a seemingly puny speed of mach 2.5 is sufficient for a short range missile to bring down its targets. Since during almost all of your engagements your and your target will be flying at a much slower speed.

"In theory I can defecate on the ceiling and make my poop stick, in practice its not that easy and a rather unpractical thing to do"!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2013-11-02 12:06:21 UTC
Its mostly because links.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

To mare
Advanced Technology
#8 - 2013-11-03 11:24:27 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.

maybe the sidewinder user pilot had bad skills Big smile
Shaotuk
Sin City Enterprises
#9 - 2013-11-03 17:13:40 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line


Umm, no there aren't.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-11-03 17:14:52 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line


How many can orbit the launching plane while maintaining enough speed to outrun it?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-11-03 17:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Can anybody give me an explanation on why ships travel faster than light missiles? I can see how frigates can travel faster than cruise missiles or torpedos, but faster than (anti-frigate) light missiles or rockets?


I just had a Ares orbit my Caracal at 20k and was going 7k m/s. My Caracal has a 55km range with CN light missiles and is unable to touch the Ares with its missiles. It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.




So. Any gameplay/lore reason why anti-frigate/frigate-based missiles are so slow?


Lesson learned don't shoot an interceptor that's orbiting you at 7 km a second.... Your missiles should have been going 8437 but I'm not sure with the inty orbiting you they would get him or not.

An interceptor is a "frigate" as in it's a frigate hull but that's about it. If he's going at that speed it probably means he has links. I don't even think Warrior II's would have caught him.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-11-03 18:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
IIshira wrote:
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Can anybody give me an explanation on why ships travel faster than light missiles? I can see how frigates can travel faster than cruise missiles or torpedos, but faster than (anti-frigate) light missiles or rockets?


I just had a Ares orbit my Caracal at 20k and was going 7k m/s. My Caracal has a 55km range with CN light missiles and is unable to touch the Ares with its missiles. It was like watching a F-22 outrun a Sidewinder.




So. Any gameplay/lore reason why anti-frigate/frigate-based missiles are so slow?


Lesson learned don't shoot an interceptor that's orbiting you at 7 km a second.... Your missiles should have been going 8437 but I'm not sure with the inty orbiting you they would get him or not.

An interceptor is a "frigate" as in it's a frigate hull but that's about it. If he's going at that speed it probably means he has links. I don't even think Warrior II's would have caught him.


You can make warriors fast enough to catch him, but they can't really hurt them. I once made a Vexor with range and speed mods for anti interceptor work, and iirc, my warriors went 11kish. They would either overshoot the target, or catch up and get just one shot off - doing almost no damage. It wasn't very effective against interceptors. Fly Valks with it and you could surprise some nano cruisers with it though.

This was years ago - perhaps they have fixed the drone WMD issue, but I don't think so.

I don't know the answer to the missile question - but I have seen linked condors outrun light missiles too, FYI.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#13 - 2013-11-03 19:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
This has been around for awhile. High Grade Snakes and velocity related modules are enough to make light missiles useless. In fact fleets of Railgun-Raptors or Taranis or Light Missile-Crows can do that ALL day as it is NOW. Some of you in factional warfare have been engaged by fleets I have lead using said lamest. Except those fleets were recieving bonuses from a Loki with warfare links (6 - 7,000msec).

ONLY small long range guns can hit them (Artillery, Railguns and Beam Lasers) properly flown.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Caleb Seremshur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-11-03 20:58:40 UTC
Now even if your missiles could hit their explosion velocity would not have been even remotely high enough to put down any decent damage on him. This missile issue is beginning to warrant a csm post. I'm of the opinion that the missile algorithm wad designed during a period when people were ratting enemy ships with extremely poor speeds and large signatures. in less words missiles are not good in pvp because they seem to not even be designed for it
To mare
Advanced Technology
#15 - 2013-11-04 07:32:44 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line


How many can orbit the launching plane while maintaining enough speed to outrun it?


at 20k pretty much all of them Big smile
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-11-04 09:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Layla Firoue wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line


Theoretical yes, practical, no.

For a mach 2.5+ capable fighter to outrun a AIM 9 it has to travel close to mach 2.5 to begin with to be able to outrun the missile since the missile accelerates way faster than the fighter.
If the fighter is traveling slower he can not out run the missile even if he hits his afterburner, since it would take him too long to gain sufficient speed, which would be a bad idea to begin with since it makes him just a more yummy target.
There might be a circumstantial scenario where the missile is fired from far enough and the fighter is already traveling fast enough to keep distance long enough for the missile to run out of fuel.
Hence why a seemingly puny speed of mach 2.5 is sufficient for a short range missile to bring down its targets. Since during almost all of your engagements your and your target will be flying at a much slower speed.

"In theory I can defecate on the ceiling and make my poop stick, in practice its not that easy and a rather unpractical thing to do"!



The basica defenseive move agisnt missiles is exaclty to outrun them,. You do nto need ot be faster.. just fast enough that the total range the missile needs to travel extends too much .

That is very common scenario, because if the fighter is traveling at mach 1.5 the effective range of the missile is reduced by 40%.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-11-04 09:12:36 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Now even if your missiles could hit their explosion velocity would not have been even remotely high enough to put down any decent damage on him. This missile issue is beginning to warrant a csm post. I'm of the opinion that the missile algorithm wad designed during a period when people were ratting enemy ships with extremely poor speeds and large signatures. in less words missiles are not good in pvp because they seem to not even be designed for it



Nope.. in fact the forumula was made when battleships could go 12 km/s with easy. When they nerfed the speed of ships, missiles simply became overpowered and their explosion velocity was nerfed.

Basically, missiles will always do very little damage to ships of sam,e size class that are with an AB and some speed modules. Same against ships with MWD signature bonuses.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-11-04 09:14:56 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
This has been around for awhile. High Grade Snakes and velocity related modules are enough to make light missiles useless. In fact fleets of Railgun-Raptors or Taranis or Light Missile-Crows can do that ALL day as it is NOW. Some of you in factional warfare have been engaged by fleets I have lead using said lamest. Except those fleets were recieving bonuses from a Loki with warfare links (6 - 7,000msec).

ONLY small long range guns can hit them (Artillery, Railguns and Beam Lasers) properly flown.



Only interceptors can avoid damage so easily due to MWD signature bonus. If the ship is faster than the missile, the missile still can hit it, but you need to get closer so the shortest path will not be to FOLLOW the target.

And thta is NOT a limitation of missiles. Show me a turret that can hit those interceptors at that range and orbiting speed....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-11-04 09:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
The right turret at the right range could do it. Sentries definitely can.

That said, even if the missile could "hit" it, it'd do almost nil damage.
seany1212
M Y S T
The Fogmen
#20 - 2013-11-04 10:42:50 UTC
Layla Firoue wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
FYI, there are many fighters that can outrun a sidewinder in a straight line


Theoretical yes, practical, no.

For a mach 2.5+ capable fighter to outrun a AIM 9 it has to travel close to mach 2.5 to begin with to be able to outrun the missile since the missile accelerates way faster than the fighter.
If the fighter is traveling slower he can not out run the missile even if he hits his afterburner, since it would take him too long to gain sufficient speed, which would be a bad idea to begin with since it makes him just a more yummy target.
There might be a circumstantial scenario where the missile is fired from far enough and the fighter is already traveling fast enough to keep distance long enough for the missile to run out of fuel.
Hence why a seemingly puny speed of mach 2.5 is sufficient for a short range missile to bring down its targets. Since during almost all of your engagements your and your target will be flying at a much slower speed.

"In theory I can defecate on the ceiling and make my poop stick, in practice its not that easy and a rather unpractical thing to do"!


http://gizmodo.com/5511236/the-thrill-of-flying-the-sr+71-blackbird

TL:DR; First few paragraphs, out ran potential Mach 5 missiles.

The point is they're scout/interceptors, at that range/speed the atron shouldnt have been doing damage enough to worry about and if you got caught in the middle of a belt or somewhere you couldn't get out of that's OP's lack of awareness in regards to where he was.
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