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Balancing High Sec suicide ganking by Hull Value - a realistic approach

First post
Author
Tom Dirtdiver
Unicorn Haters
#401 - 2013-11-08 01:10:37 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Tom Dirtdiver wrote:
you can phrase what you want, Ganking without real penaltys for it, was and is allways the start for the End of the game. And im playing MMORPGs since 17 years now. I saw many games go down because of ganker.

I dont say, Ganking should be forbidden. Damn no, if someone wants to be a pirate, so be it. But it cant be, that he can move freely like any other Taxpaying char in this Sandbox. All bonuses and no risk at all, thats not working on a long distance for the game. But for that, CCP need to do real work, and make some changes.

I only cant see it anymore, that newbies, and all others only get killed, to get the Killboard up, or the ppl are bored so they Gank.

This System goes so on, until everyone ganks, or no more freighters moving products between the hubs.




protip -- at -10, they're killable by anyone and everyone in system.

If you choose to not go after them, then that's your prerogative.



Yeah would be nice, if they all fall behind this line. ;) But they dont, security Status is easy to get for them.
Tom Dirtdiver
Unicorn Haters
#402 - 2013-11-08 01:15:43 UTC
Ah damn, i forgot, -10 is the bottom of the line.

xD i hope you see the pointless point in your argument.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#403 - 2013-11-08 01:41:42 UTC
Tom Dirtdiver wrote:
Ah damn, i forgot, -10 is the bottom of the line.

xD i hope you see the pointless point in your argument.

They become outlaws well before this.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#404 - 2013-11-08 01:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Tom Dirtdiver wrote:
Ah damn, i forgot, -10 is the bottom of the line.

xD i hope you see the pointless point in your argument.

Assuming that you can freely attack any character with sec. of -5 and less, you pointless point is even more pointless.

But i clearly see why you butthurt: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21015260

Quote:
Ganking without real penaltys for it, was and is allways the start for the End of the game. And im playing MMORPGs since 17 years now. I saw many games go down because of ganker.

I dont say, Ganking should be forbidden. Damn no, if someone wants to be a pirate, so be it. But it cant be, that he can move freely like any other Taxpaying char in this Sandbox. All bonuses and no risk at all, thats not working on a long distance for the game. But for that, CCP need to do real work, and make some changes.

Please name those MMOs.
I dont know any MMO that went down because of gankers. On contrary, UO started to decline after they introduced PvP-free Trammel world.
Edit: please define "taxpaying player".
Quote:
Example, a Capsule kill should be worth a Standing loss from the faction in the Region where the kill happend. A real big loss.
Or a Charban for a Week, of you kill a capsule in HighSec. Would be a nice idea to simulate jail.


Factions dont give a **** about capsuleers killing each other unless victim is affilated with military forces of that faction (militia).
Charban for something that is allowed by rules? You must be mad or high... Also if you lose capsule in High Sec - you were probably AFK.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#405 - 2013-11-08 01:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Astroniomix
Quote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:


xD i hope you see the pointless point in your argument.

Assuming that you can freely attack any character with sec. of -5 and less, you pointless point is even more pointless.

But i clearly see why you butthurt: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21015260


There is an epic story to this that I'm not aware of yet.

You clearly did something to draw their ire because that was NOT a profitable gank.

It's still funny though.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#406 - 2013-11-08 02:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Freedom Equality
Astroniomix wrote:
Quote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:


xD i hope you see the pointless point in your argument.

Assuming that you can freely attack any character with sec. of -5 and less, you pointless point is even more pointless.

But i clearly see why you butthurt: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21015260


There is an epic story to this that I'm not aware of yet.

You clearly did something to draw their ire because that was NOT a profitable gank.

It's still funny though.


He did nothing. If you look at their kills they killed a Kronos earlier that didn`t have much on it either.

My guess is they are doing it for fun. And that is exactly why this system needs to be changed.

Griefing has become so cheap they can afford to just do kill after kill, and as you can notice the victim has no chance.

So dear CCP, will you allow this griefing to continue or will you stop it?
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#407 - 2013-11-08 02:11:57 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:

He did nothing.

and that is why he lost his ship. If he overheated invulns and killed 1-2 of those catas with drones - he would've survived. But he was afk(my assumption, he lost capsule anyway)/chose to do nothing and paid for that.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#408 - 2013-11-08 02:28:01 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

He did nothing.

and that is why he lost his ship. If he overheated invulns and killed 1-2 of those catas with drones - he would've survived. But he was afk(my assumption, he lost capsule anyway)/chose to do nothing and paid for that.


Stop spinning and get real... by the time he locked them he was dead.

Clear case of griefing, he can try and report it but i doubt anything will be done as CCP is clearly pro griefing for allowing this crap.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#409 - 2013-11-08 02:28:31 UTC
This game has never truly been balanced around the price of a ship as long as it is subcapital. When you get to carriers and supers, obviously things change. But even then, if you bring enough firepower, even they crumble.

Removing high sec kills from killboards means nothing. You are not being ganked necessarily to add to the killboard. You are being ganked because you are ********. End of story. You put billions of ISK into a ship that could do the same thing a bit slower for significantly cheaper, and you want relative safety in high sec. You have that relative safety in CONCORD. You are simply being ganked. Maybe it will gather more tears (and this thread adds to that portion).

Stop whining and start thinking.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Anabaric
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#410 - 2013-11-08 02:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabaric
Freedom Equality wrote:
He did nothing. If you look at their kills they killed a Kronos earlier that didn`t have much on it either.

My guess is they are doing it for fun. And that is exactly why this system needs to be changed.


Actually we were training some of the new guys how to make isk in highsec (exactly the same thing that you were trying to do running SOE missions), one of the simple ways is to find badly tanked ships with faction mods and shiny salvage. Between the dropped mods (drones) and salvage we more than paid back the initial investment in ships.

You see it as ruining your game, we see it as a nights entertainment for 10+ guys.

And of course it was fun, everyone on comms was laughing and having a good giggle most of the evening, but the best bit of the night was was Ronin's mad on comms after we failed at 5% structure on a 3b isk golem. C'est la vie. Pirate

Community Manager www.Battleclinic.com @battleclinic Loadouts + Killboards + Forums Twitter @anabaric_eve www.the-bastards.net Recruitment: OPEN

Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#411 - 2013-11-08 02:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Freedom Equality
Anabaric wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
He did nothing. If you look at their kills they killed a Kronos earlier that didn`t have much on it either.

My guess is they are doing it for fun. And that is exactly why this system needs to be changed.


Actually we were training some of the new guys how to make isk in highsec (exactly the same thing that you were trying to do running SOE missions), one of the simple ways is to find badly tanked ships with faction mods and shiny salvage. Between the dropped mods (drones) and salvage we more than paid back the initial investment in ships.

You see it as ruining your game, we see it as a nights entertainment for 10+ guys.

And of course it was fun, everyone on comms was laughing and having a good giggle most of the evening, but the best bit of the night was was Ronin's mad on comms after we failed at 5% structure on a 3b isk golem. C'est la vie. Pirate


Value of dropped items: 95.26 mil ISK

So out of 95mil ISK you got to make profit even tho you lost 11 ships? That is 8.63 mil per person + whatever the salvage gives you and you need to replace your ship.

Is that enough to end up in profit? If it is it clearly shows how bad this is.

EDIT: in the earlier pages we were discussing how a freighter must have 2bil to be worth ganking, but if you managed to replace 11 destroyers and make a profit from the 95mil drop, you just showed us a freighter carrying 400mil worth of cargo can be Suicide Ganked for profit by 20 destroyers.

Good info!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#412 - 2013-11-08 02:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Freedom Equality wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

He did nothing.

and that is why he lost his ship. If he overheated invulns and killed 1-2 of those catas with drones - he would've survived. But he was afk(my assumption, he lost capsule anyway)/chose to do nothing and paid for that.


Stop spinning and get real... by the time he locked them he was dead.

Clear case of griefing, he can try and report it but i doubt anything will be done as CCP is clearly pro griefing for allowing this crap.



tip -> overheating the invulns gets you +20% resist bonus ... not a lot, but possibly the difference between that KM and limping away at 5% structure ...

edit - can't really say 'protip' because I'm terrible at remembering to overheat things.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#413 - 2013-11-08 03:03:05 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

He did nothing.

and that is why he lost his ship. If he overheated invulns and killed 1-2 of those catas with drones - he would've survived. But he was afk(my assumption, he lost capsule anyway)/chose to do nothing and paid for that.


Stop spinning and get real... by the time he locked them he was dead.

Clear case of griefing, he can try and report it but i doubt anything will be done as CCP is clearly pro griefing for allowing this crap.



tip -> overheating the invulns gets you +20% resist bonus ... not a lot, but possibly the difference between that KM and limping away at 5% structure ...

edit - can't really say 'protip' because I'm terrible at remembering to overheat things.


Could be, by with the numbers provided by Anabaric you can see it wouldn`t matter anyway they would be back in 15min and get him or get another player, the cost per Suicide Gank is so low for the ganker its stupid.

11 people died and they made profit with only 95mil worth of modules dropping. The victim lost 605 mil...

Also, it was a Rattlesnake(resist bonus) with 2x T2 Invulns and 2 T2 Shield Extenders. This is more EHP than most mission battleships have. And he only dropped 95mil worth of items and they still made money.

I really don`t think CCP knows these numbers... right now i`d wish a DEV would read this and comment as i really don`t think they know its this bad.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#414 - 2013-11-08 03:13:05 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

He did nothing.

and that is why he lost his ship. If he overheated invulns and killed 1-2 of those catas with drones - he would've survived. But he was afk(my assumption, he lost capsule anyway)/chose to do nothing and paid for that.


Stop spinning and get real... by the time he locked them he was dead.

Clear case of griefing, he can try and report it but i doubt anything will be done as CCP is clearly pro griefing for allowing this crap.



tip -> overheating the invulns gets you +20% resist bonus ... not a lot, but possibly the difference between that KM and limping away at 5% structure ...

edit - can't really say 'protip' because I'm terrible at remembering to overheat things.


Could be, by with the numbers provided by Anabaric you can see it wouldn`t matter anyway they would be back in 15min and get him or get another player, the cost per Suicide Gank is so low for the ganker its stupid.

11 people died and they made profit with only 95mil worth of modules dropping. The victim lost 605 mil...

Also, it was a Rattlesnake(resist bonus) with 2x T2 Invulns and 2 T2 Shield Extenders. This is more EHP than most mission battleships have. And he only dropped 95mil worth of items and they still made money.

I really don`t think CCP knows these numbers... right now i`d wish a DEV would read this and comment as i really don`t think they know its this bad.


1. if he survived, the smart thing to to would be "leave the bling in the hangar" ... they (likely) wouldn't bother killing a raven.
2. If he survived and chose to go back out in the bling ship and then lost it ... he learned nothing from the encounter just 15 minutes prior

3. CCP knows ... and they love it; you are entitled to your opinion though.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#415 - 2013-11-08 03:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anya Klibor
Freedom Equality wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

He did nothing.

and that is why he lost his ship. If he overheated invulns and killed 1-2 of those catas with drones - he would've survived. But he was afk(my assumption, he lost capsule anyway)/chose to do nothing and paid for that.


Stop spinning and get real... by the time he locked them he was dead.

Clear case of griefing, he can try and report it but i doubt anything will be done as CCP is clearly pro griefing for allowing this crap.



tip -> overheating the invulns gets you +20% resist bonus ... not a lot, but possibly the difference between that KM and limping away at 5% structure ...

edit - can't really say 'protip' because I'm terrible at remembering to overheat things.


Could be, by with the numbers provided by Anabaric you can see it wouldn`t matter anyway they would be back in 15min and get him or get another player, the cost per Suicide Gank is so low for the ganker its stupid.

11 people died and they made profit with only 95mil worth of modules dropping. The victim lost 605 mil...

Also, it was a Rattlesnake(resist bonus) with 2x T2 Invulns and 2 T2 Shield Extenders. This is more EHP than most mission battleships have. And he only dropped 95mil worth of items and they still made money.

I really don`t think CCP knows these numbers... right now i`d wish a DEV would read this and comment as i really don`t think they know its this bad.


I couldn't help ut notice he fit three launchers with four hardpoints, placing on another drone range module, and thus reducing his overall DPS. I also couldn't help but notice he had T1 cruise launchers instead of T2, meaning he probably didn't train for them. So, did he have Caldari Battleship 5 trained?

Probably not.

That means he had a gimped tank and gimped DPS. He was, in essence, in a ship he had no business being in.

When you are spending half-a-billion ISK on a hull alone, you maximize its efficiency. You don't run into a ship just because you meet the bare requirements to pilot it. You rarely see a competent pilot hop into an expensive ship just because he has the bare minimum. People jump into HACs when they have HAC 4 trained, mininum. All my characters, if they will pilot the ship type often enough, will have it trained to 5.

It's why two of my characters have had Marauders 5 trained for almost a year.

Before jumping into a ship worth more than 50-mil total , ask yourself:

Can I fit T2 guns?
Can I fit a T2 tank?
Do I know how to pilot this size of ship properly?

If any of that has a 'no' as an answer, stay the hell out of it.

You carebears whine and complain constantly about being "picked on", and how "gankers ruin EvE". No, they do not. You forget or ignore the prime directive of EvE Online, the first general order that every PvPer in this game worth his salt knows and has committed to memory:

Never fly something you can't afford to lose.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#416 - 2013-11-08 03:38:01 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:

Before jumping into a ship worth more than 50-mil total , ask yourself:

Can I fit T2 guns?
Can I fit a T2 tank?
Do I know how to pilot this size of ship properly?

If any of that has a 'no' as an answer, stay the hell out of it.


I would counter that Meta 4 guns are a suitable level for a ship in some (not all) instances. E.G. a corp POS bash and throwing the people who're flying BC into Talos/Oracle.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#417 - 2013-11-08 03:42:03 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:

Before jumping into a ship worth more than 50-mil total , ask yourself:

Can I fit T2 guns?
Can I fit a T2 tank?
Do I know how to pilot this size of ship properly?

If any of that has a 'no' as an answer, stay the hell out of it.


I would counter that Meta 4 guns are a suitable level for a ship in some (not all) instances. E.G. a corp POS bash and throwing the people who're flying BC into Talos/Oracle.


I can think of no instance in which Meta 4 guns are acceptable on a faction ship, T2 frigate, or T2 cruiser/battlecruiser. Maybe I just have a high bar, but I can't validate it.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#418 - 2013-11-08 03:49:40 UTC
Velicitia wrote:


1. if he survived, the smart thing to to would be "leave the bling in the hangar" ... they (likely) wouldn't bother killing a raven.
2. If he survived and chose to go back out in the bling ship and then lost it ... he learned nothing from the encounter just 15 minutes prior

3. CCP knows ... and they love it; you are entitled to your opinion though.


So basically the Suicide Gankers now dictate what the other High Sec residents can fly?

Either way, this will put a lot of pressure on the casual population. I see CCP doing all they can to get new players but if they are not left alone and are ganked etc they will quit, the same as mission people and so on. I have yet to see a MMO not enter the Death Spiral once the casual players decide to leave. As its not the hardcore that keep it going, surprisingly enough.(because the hardcore population, while "elite", is a lot smaller than the casual one, so it won`t sustain the game long term, profits will drop, development will slot... and so on)

If they want to keep this system more than they want to keep their casual players, it is their choice, their game. But i think they can see the problem, are tried to fix it by making battleship Suicide Gankers unprofitable. They just didn`t expect people will switch to destroyers and do an even better job.

It is helping the inflation but it will have a heavy impact on the casual population, and while there are other ways to try and keep inflation down, i don`t think you can simply replace the casual population.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#419 - 2013-11-08 03:56:40 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:

Before jumping into a ship worth more than 50-mil total , ask yourself:

Can I fit T2 guns?
Can I fit a T2 tank?
Do I know how to pilot this size of ship properly?

If any of that has a 'no' as an answer, stay the hell out of it.


I would counter that Meta 4 guns are a suitable level for a ship in some (not all) instances. E.G. a corp POS bash and throwing the people who're flying BC into Talos/Oracle.


I can think of no instance in which Meta 4 guns are acceptable on a faction ship, T2 frigate, or T2 cruiser/battlecruiser. Maybe I just have a high bar, but I can't validate it.


He had a T2 tank... he did not have the guns but it would have made 0 difference, as he had no time to lock them anyway.

Besides, the fun part is getting the ship and then improving this and that as you go... not getting it with perfect skills leaving nothing to be improved.(personal opinion)

This is how New Players evolve... they scrape by to barely afford the ship, then make some money in it while improving their skills, get the next one, get bored of missions and go for PVP and so on. If you gank the player in the middle of this chain he might quit, a lot do... and EVE is a niche game already no further reason to grief the New Players into quitting.

We will see, i understand players don`t care, but CCP should care...
Sarcos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#420 - 2013-11-08 04:21:58 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


My guess is they are doing it for fun. And that is exactly why this system needs to be changed.

Griefing has become so cheap they can afford to just do kill after kill, and as you can notice the victim has no chance.



The 'victim' has no chance?

Hmm...If I (god forbid) was running a mission, mining, whatever in .5 .6 space and I see local spike by 10-15...most neg sec status, I might think about doing a quick blip of the d-scan to see if a wave of catas is inbound somewhere. That might be a tip-off that something is amiss.

See local spike.

Press d-scan.

Align and press dock buttan.

Not hard.

We're the real victims here...it's horrible having to fit all those dessies up, parceling the ammo out, figuring out who is going to haul the loot..ugh...tedious