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Balancing High Sec suicide ganking by Hull Value - a realistic approach

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Velicitia
XS Tech
#201 - 2013-11-04 14:33:41 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:

The issue is that a Suicide Ganker can use a lovely 15mil ship(and get half the fit back) so his loss per person is at most 15mil.


Not necessarily. It'll be "half the fit" in the long run -- but over the course of a small sample of ganks (say 100) the numbers may be lower (or higher, because you have a non-zero chance of getting all the modules, same as none of the modules).

pulling from random.org, did a quick sample of 10 possible drop scenarios (with 10 modules)

1 = drop
0 = destroyed

Each column is a ship
________________________________
1|1|0|1|0|0|1|0|0|0
1|0|0|0|1|1|0|0|1|1
1|0|0|0|1|1|0|1|1|1
0|0|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|0
0|1|1|0|0|0|1|1|1|1
0|0|1|1|0|0|1|1|1|1
1|1|1|1|1|1|0|0|0|0
1|1|1|1|1|1|0|1|0|0
1|0|0|1|0|1|0|1|1|1
0|0|0|1|0|0|1|1|0|1
________________
6, 4, 4, 7, 4, 6, 5, 6, 6, 6 => 54% of the modules dropped


Next set:
_______________
1|0|1|1|0|0|1|0|1|1
0|1|1|0|0|0|0|1|1|1
1|1|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|1
1|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|1|1
1|1|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0
1|1|0|0|0|1|1|1|0|1
0|1|0|0|1|1|0|1|0|1
1|1|1|0|0|0|1|1|0|0
0|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|0|0
0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|0|0
________________

6, 7, 4, 2, 2, 4, 4, 6, 3, 6 = 44% of the modules dropped.

Our simulated ganker has only gotten 49% of the possible modules to drop (98/200). Obviously, this is an EXTREMELY limited set, and has no real statistical relevance. I could run say 1000 samples to get a better set, but why should I do the work for youP

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Frozen Chief
Doomheim
#202 - 2013-11-04 14:49:55 UTC
Adding the ability to buy sec status is part of the issue...

I dont know if I agree with the OP, although I dont disagree either. I think a better solution though is to increase security status hit, and then actually BAN them from hi-sec. If you are -5 or below lets say, you cannot jump through into hi-sec at all. Period.

You also cannot buy security tags so gotta work in low-sec to redeem yourself.

This makes people pick their ganking targets, people will still gank a 5 billion cargo holding freighter because by the time their sec status is too low, they've done that 5 times making 2.5 billion each. Id sit in low grinding standings for a few hours for that, as would most gankers.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-11-04 14:57:38 UTC
You can always hire someone to provide exact numbers if you want them, or just do the work yourself. Don`t be lazy.

The fact that the entire EVE population is moving around like they are sure they will get ganked if they make it profitable for the gankers to do it if proof enough that this has a big impact.

Besides, some of you admitted you are Suicide Gankers, so you know how it is... no risk, trade a 15mil ship for a clean 50-100mil profit.

As for your claim that "bo hoo people should not fly the ship if they can`t afford to lose it", it is very easy to make when you are in a 15mil destroyer killing ships worth billions. As you lose 15mil they lose bilions.

But when we try and find a way for you to occasionally lose as much as your victims do you come here crying and doing anything and everything possible to prevent that.

No my dear friend, if you want the exact numbers get them for yourself, they matter very little. The proof that Suicide Ganking has an impact is in how EVE High Sec haulers have reduced their cargo value up to a point where they fly with an almost empty cargo OR are afraid to use deadspace items. Because they know they will get ganked, as the Suicide Gankers have no risk, while the brave haulers/missioneers/miners risk a lot of ISK every time they undock.

It is about time to get the Suicide Gankers to risk as much ISK as their victim, considering the Suicide Gankers are doing the illegal action here.

You can keep trying to derail this and ask for information you can get yourself, but are not willing to do the work, i am here and i say it will not work. I will keep showing people how you risk so little and gain so much. You can hate me all you want, that will not change the truth.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#204 - 2013-11-04 14:59:52 UTC
trouble with this is that there's not a way to get from (say) Aridia to (say) Black Rise staying in lowsec only. or, hell, a lowsec island in the middle of (say) Everyshore to anywhere useful.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Rhianna Ghost
Ghost Industries Inc.
#205 - 2013-11-04 15:00:42 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


But my question is, if there are so few ganks and people can avoid them so easily, why does Red Frog Freight limit its value per freighter to 1 bil? Why everyone on the forums advises mission runners not to fit deadspace modules as they will get Suicide Ganked?


Maybe, because they have pay the collateral? Maybe, because they know how NOT getting printed GANK ME onto the hull? Maybe, because they know their ****?

I am no ganker, for sure (as you might see by my Sec Standing...). I am owning a freighter and using it occasionally, but mostly I am doing other things in game.

The OP has told us multiple times (not forums citing here, otherwise it would be to many citations, but its all him):

Post 105:
"I think that it should not be so profitable ..."

Post 122:
"But i believe ... "

Post 127:
"I also think nobody should be able to ... "

Post 129:
"... but i still think ..."

So the Op is clearly stating his opinion here. Everyone is allowed to have one. And an opinion does not need any facts to support it. So maybe he does not have any.

Freedom Equality wrote:
Truth is, Suicide Ganking has a very real and noticeable effect in EVE. No matter what the Suicide Gankers want you to think.


Why in the name of the imagined Amarrian Gods should they NOT have an effect? It is a single shard MMO with real consequences. Every action may or may not affect the bigger picture. And I am flying around with my freighter, with my mining barges, with my incursion ships and I have not been ganked up to now.

Maybe, because I am not asking for it, with stupid blingy fits or afk flying or maybe I am just lucky, but still...

Risk vs. Reward. I am risking every ship I undock to be lost to gankers. They risk the wrath of the loot fairy. Or the one looting faster than they are. Or the stupid guy in fleet, who forgot to switch securtiy to red. Or the bad weather in Niaja. So be it.

This is EVE.

*plonk
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2013-11-04 15:04:35 UTC
Frozen Chief wrote:
Adding the ability to buy sec status is part of the issue...

I dont know if I agree with the OP, although I dont disagree either. I think a better solution though is to increase security status hit, and then actually BAN them from hi-sec. If you are -5 or below lets say, you cannot jump through into hi-sec at all. Period.

You also cannot buy security tags so gotta work in low-sec to redeem yourself.

This makes people pick their ganking targets, people will still gank a 5 billion cargo holding freighter because by the time their sec status is too low, they've done that 5 times making 2.5 billion each. Id sit in low grinding standings for a few hours for that, as would most gankers.


I am not trying to force my idea, i would be happy with any other idea as long as something is done so that the Suicide Gankers stand to lose as much as their victim. Even then, their loss will be shared so they will take a much smaller ISK loss per person compared to their victim, but at least it would be possible for them to actually LOSE ISK and not recover with the next successful gank.

I welcome any idea that can change that. Post it here and let it be known. Together we will find something that works.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#207 - 2013-11-04 15:12:15 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
You can always hire someone to provide exact numbers if you want them, or just do the work yourself. Don`t be lazy.

.

You're the one making the claims, the burden of proof is on you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#208 - 2013-11-04 15:18:48 UTC
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
I'll throw in a curve ball suggestion here which in theory could add some additional risk for the gankers.
Why do they need additional risk?


Because its far too simple and easy to do with current mechanics. Why should the players getting ganked suffer far greater consequences (ie significant isk loss) than the gankers who loose a cheap hull and profit from your modules?.


You forgot a few things.

Ganker is open to attack from everyone
Ganker can fail to kill the target
Ganker faces a 50% chance of loot not dropping at all
Ganker will be hit with a sec status loss resulting in being open to attack from everyone
Ganker will be locked out of a ship for 15 min
Ganker will have a killright against them that is sellable and can be activated at any time
Gankers loot ship may be attacked
Gankers loot may be stolen by someone else
Gankers fly ships that are ironically profitable to gank
Gankers void their ship insurance.

The only reason it is easy is because the victim makes it easy.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#209 - 2013-11-04 15:21:20 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:

I am not trying to force my idea, i would be happy with any other idea as long as something is done so that the Suicide Gankers stand to lose as much as their victim. Even then, their loss will be shared so they will take a much smaller ISK loss per person compared to their victim, but at least it would be possible for them to actually LOSE ISK and not recover with the next successful gank.

I welcome any idea that can change that. Post it here and let it be known. Together we will find something that works.


Nerf CONCORD, Buff flying with fleets.

I hate pulling out RL examples, but consider a container freighter on the Earths tradelanes ... some small group of dudes (say 5) in a ******* $500 ROWBOAT can take over a multi-billion-dollar vessel carrying tens of billions of dollars worth of cargo. And that's not even a WARSHIP.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velicitia
XS Tech
#210 - 2013-11-04 15:22:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
I'll throw in a curve ball suggestion here which in theory could add some additional risk for the gankers.
Why do they need additional risk?


Because its far too simple and easy to do with current mechanics. Why should the players getting ganked suffer far greater consequences (ie significant isk loss) than the gankers who loose a cheap hull and profit from your modules?.


You forgot a few things.

Ganker is open to attack from everyone
Ganker can fail to kill the target
Ganker faces a 50% chance of loot not dropping at all
Ganker will be hit with a sec status loss resulting in being open to attack from everyone
Ganker will be locked out of a ship for 15 min
Ganker will have a killright against them that is sellable and can be activated at any time
Gankers loot ship may be attacked
Gankers loot may be stolen by someone else
Gankers fly ships that are ironically profitable to gank
Gankers void their ship insurance.

The only reason it is easy is because the victim makes it easy.


Ganker risks their pod because some ******* sitting in the belt with an insta-locking inty... Twisted

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#211 - 2013-11-04 15:27:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
I'll throw in a curve ball suggestion here which in theory could add some additional risk for the gankers.
Why do they need additional risk?


Because its far too simple and easy to do with current mechanics. Why should the players getting ganked suffer far greater consequences (ie significant isk loss) than the gankers who loose a cheap hull and profit from your modules?.


You forgot a few things.

Ganker is open to attack from everyone
Ganker can fail to kill the target
Ganker faces a 50% chance of loot not dropping at all
Ganker will be hit with a sec status loss resulting in being open to attack from everyone
Ganker will be locked out of a ship for 15 min
Ganker will have a killright against them that is sellable and can be activated at any time
Gankers loot ship may be attacked
Gankers loot may be stolen by someone else
Gankers fly ships that are ironically profitable to gank
Gankers void their ship insurance.

The only reason it is easy is because the victim makes it easy.

You also left out the part where the gankers accidentally kill the wrong target. (I've seen it happen)
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2013-11-04 15:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Freedom Equality
Astroniomix wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
You can always hire someone to provide exact numbers if you want them, or just do the work yourself. Don`t be lazy.

.

You're the one making the claims, the burden of proof is on you.


I claimed Suicide Gankers risk 15mil and get 50-100 mil profit. If you read carefully, it was a Suicide Ganker that provided the numbers.

I claimed Suicide Gankers take no risk as you can`t realistically gank them and get away with it besides even if they did they would not care as the ratio is 1 successful gank = 5 or more failed ones.

I claimed that the Suicide Gankers lose 15mil per person while the victim loses 1bil+ per person.

People claimed it is rare and has no effect. Not me. I claimed it has an impact that can be seen everywhere in High Sec as everyone takes Suicide Ganking into account. Now if it is that rare and has no impact, how come everyone from the little guy to the freight corporation knows about it and takes it into account?

My claim is that in its current state, it has a big impact. And the risk the Suicide Ganker takes(monetary risk) is too small and they simply can`t lose with 1 win needed to cover 5 or more losses.

The problem here is risk versus reward. A Suicide Ganker stands to lose 15mil while having total control over who and when he attacks. The victim stands to lose 1.5+bil while unable to do much as the Suicide Gankers have time to scan the ship and decide what type of damage to use and how much damage is needed.

So we have one side that has total control and can strike anytime/anyone while standing to lose 15mil per person and the other side that can`t avoid a good gank(as it doesn`t know when it will happen/can`t be guarded 24/7 while missioning and even if it has friends in the system they will not make it in time, as for freighters they HP is fixed so once you killed one you know how much damage is needed - not like it can MWD and cause tracking problems). The side that can`t avoid the gank loses from 1 bil up to 3bil or more.

But when we ask for the gankers to risk as much and stand to lose the same number of ISK per person they come here saying that is too much. For them. But it is ok for them if someone else loses that much.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#213 - 2013-11-04 15:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Freedom Equality
Velicitia wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

I am not trying to force my idea, i would be happy with any other idea as long as something is done so that the Suicide Gankers stand to lose as much as their victim. Even then, their loss will be shared so they will take a much smaller ISK loss per person compared to their victim, but at least it would be possible for them to actually LOSE ISK and not recover with the next successful gank.

I welcome any idea that can change that. Post it here and let it be known. Together we will find something that works.


Nerf CONCORD, Buff flying with fleets.

I hate pulling out RL examples, but consider a container freighter on the Earths tradelanes ... some small group of dudes (say 5) in a ******* $500 ROWBOAT can take over a multi-billion-dollar vessel carrying tens of billions of dollars worth of cargo. And that's not even a WARSHIP.


Agreed. But they actually risk their life. And it only takes one failed attempt to get them in jail for the rest of their life.

In EVE, the Suicide Gankers use $500 rowboats to destroy freighters, but while they get half the cargo and destroy the freighter, they can`t be caught. The worst thing that can happen is that they lose their $500 rowboat.

I would say it is not the same thing.

EDIT: It is a very good example why it needs to change to add some real risk for the Suicide Gankers in EVE.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#214 - 2013-11-04 15:55:21 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


The victim stands to lose 1.5+bil while unable to do much as the Suicide Gankers have time to scan the ship and decide what type of damage to use and how much damage is needed.


Only if the victim is stupid and makes it easy to do.

Also no one is going to gank a 1.5 bill freighter and make a profit.

Really you should just stop playing EVE because everything in your argument is complaining about the core aspects of EVE.

1) dumb people stand to lose a lot from people smarter than them

2) plans work better with more people (and losses don't hurt as much)

And you can drop the "risk reward" bullshit. If you want risk reward then you better get going on nerfing incursions, missions, fw plexing (I've been griding FW plexes for MONTHS and haven't had a single kill or lost a ship at all yet, all while making more money in a week than these gankers make in a month)

Fact is you don't want "risk reward" you've got your panties in a bunch over "muh fewlings" because someone lost their stupid ship.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#215 - 2013-11-04 16:11:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:


Gankers have wanted the best of both worlds for *years*. Constantly clamoring for Miners to be forced into player corps, never once stating they themselves should be brought under the same rules. So now that someone is suggesting something different, suddenly fairness is the big issue?

Oh, and I apparently had corp management trained. Feel free to dec me. At least you'll have to be in a player corp to do it.



All we want is for the bears such as yourself to fit a tank and stop calling on CCP for just one more nerf.


OMG this! This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.

If you guys would just fit a tank, much of your problems would go away. Heck you don't even have to do this if you really, really don't want too. But at least realize that EVERYTHING in Eve comes with a trade off. Don't fit a tank, more vulnerable to a suicide gank. Do fit a tank, less mining output. Play solo, you are more vulnerable as you wont have friends to help you (provide boosts, maybe logistics support, etc.). Heck even think outside the damn box, fit a skiff with a tank and a scram and then gank the gankers.

I have seen war dec corps paralyze High Sec corps where the war dec corp has 3-10 guys (say 5 on average) and the other corp 25-50 pilots, say an average of 35 pilots. That is a 7:1 ratio, the decced corp could put 2-3x the number of pilots of the field. But the high sec corps don't do any of the following:

1. Wont train skills so everyone can fly a consistent and cogent fleet doctrine.
2. Wont train skills to fit ships correctly (AWU 5 is an awesome skill, pain to train, but when done...awesome).
3. Are almost afraid to lose a ship, hello this is Eve Online, loosing a ship once in a while is mandatory if you log in and undock. Get used to it.
4. Listen to whomever is in charge of you fleet and do what they tell you to do.
5. Have combat ships on-hand.
6. When you get decced meet in a given system. Numbers is ALWAYS a force multiplier.

Then coming and raging on the forums like a bunch of pansies...why you just feed into the war dec corps and suicide gankers. They just think, "This is awesome, look at them complaining and whining!" And here is an idea...gank them right back. They are in catalysts for the love of God. Get in a catalyst and go shoot them!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2013-11-04 16:14:44 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


The victim stands to lose 1.5+bil while unable to do much as the Suicide Gankers have time to scan the ship and decide what type of damage to use and how much damage is needed.


Only if the victim is stupid and makes it easy to do.

Also no one is going to gank a 1.5 bill freighter and make a profit.

Really you should just stop playing EVE because everything in your argument is complaining about the core aspects of EVE.

1) dumb people stand to lose a lot from people smarter than them

2) plans work better with more people (and losses don't hurt as much)

And you can drop the "risk reward" bullshit. If you want risk reward then you better get going on nerfing incursions, missions, fw plexing (I've been griding FW plexes for MONTHS and haven't had a single kill or lost a ship at all yet, all while making more money in a week than these gankers make in a month)

Fact is you don't want "risk reward" you've got your panties in a bunch over "muh fewlings" because someone lost their stupid ship.


20x destroyers = 300mil fully fitted for gank. If they get half their fit back(and they usually do) the cost is now 200mil (numbers provided in this thread by Suicide Gankers, so they should know what they are talking about)

Now a freighter hull is 1bil up to 1.5bil. Just the hull. Then some cargo say 1bil and you get a 2bil-2.5bil loss for the victim.

The minimum amount needed for the gank to break even = 400ish mil in the freighter`s cargo. With a 1bil in the freighter cargo the Suicide Gankers risk 10mil per person(after the fit is recovered) while causing the Victim a 2bil-2.5bil ISK loss and gaining 40mil per person.

Battleship ganks take less destroyers(10 are enough) as they have a lot less HP(and no mission ship is buffer tanked) and only manage to get a few boosts off before they explode.

When i said 1.5bil+ i wasn`t talking about freighters alone, a pirate ship fitting some deadspace modules can only be worth 1.5bil, but it can be taken out with 10 destroyers for a nice profit.

All this in Secure Space with the guys doing the infraction earning the most while the victim loses a lot more than all 10 or 20 attackers combined.

But as you can see when the Suicide Gankers see someone trying to add some risk so they might end up losing some ISK and not always make a profit, they come here and say they actually stand to lose the most. What can i say.... LOL.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#217 - 2013-11-04 16:16:21 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

I am not trying to force my idea, i would be happy with any other idea as long as something is done so that the Suicide Gankers stand to lose as much as their victim. Even then, their loss will be shared so they will take a much smaller ISK loss per person compared to their victim, but at least it would be possible for them to actually LOSE ISK and not recover with the next successful gank.

I welcome any idea that can change that. Post it here and let it be known. Together we will find something that works.


Nerf CONCORD, Buff flying with fleets.

I hate pulling out RL examples, but consider a container freighter on the Earths tradelanes ... some small group of dudes (say 5) in a ******* $500 ROWBOAT can take over a multi-billion-dollar vessel carrying tens of billions of dollars worth of cargo. And that's not even a WARSHIP.


Agreed. But they actually risk their life. And it only takes one failed attempt to get them in jail for the rest of their life.

In EVE, the Suicide Gankers use $500 rowboats to destroy freighters, but while they get half the cargo and destroy the freighter, they can`t be caught. The worst thing that can happen is that they lose their $500 rowboat.

I would say it is not the same thing.

EDIT: It is a very good example why it needs to change to add some real risk for the Suicide Gankers in EVE.


Did you read his comment? He isn't really agreeing with you. He is pointing out if you are insistent on flying solo you are ALWAYS going to be at risk to groups of players.

So you should be with a group of players too, is what he is saying. Not make punishments for being a suicide ganker more severe.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#218 - 2013-11-04 16:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Freedom Equality wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


The victim stands to lose 1.5+bil while unable to do much as the Suicide Gankers have time to scan the ship and decide what type of damage to use and how much damage is needed.


Only if the victim is stupid and makes it easy to do.

Also no one is going to gank a 1.5 bill freighter and make a profit.

Really you should just stop playing EVE because everything in your argument is complaining about the core aspects of EVE.

1) dumb people stand to lose a lot from people smarter than them

2) plans work better with more people (and losses don't hurt as much)

And you can drop the "risk reward" bullshit. If you want risk reward then you better get going on nerfing incursions, missions, fw plexing (I've been griding FW plexes for MONTHS and haven't had a single kill or lost a ship at all yet, all while making more money in a week than these gankers make in a month)

Fact is you don't want "risk reward" you've got your panties in a bunch over "muh fewlings" because someone lost their stupid ship.


20x destroyers = 300mil fully fitted for gank. If they get half their fit back(and they usually do) the cost is now 200mil (numbers provided in this thread by Suicide Gankers, so they should know what they are talking about)

Now a freighter hull is 1bil up to 1.5bil. Just the hull. Then some cargo say 1bil and you get a 2bil-2.5bil loss for the victim.

The minimum amount needed for the gank to break even = 400ish mil in the freighter`s cargo. With a 1bil in the freighter cargo the Suicide Gankers risk 10mil per person(after the fit is recovered) while causing the Victim a 2bil-2.5bil ISK loss and gaining 40mil per person.

Battleship ganks take less destroyers(10 are enough) as they have a lot less HP(and no mission ship is buffer tanked) and only manage to get a few boosts off before they explode.

When i said 1.5bil+ i wasn`t talking about freighters alone, a pirate ship fitting some deadspace modules can only be worth 1.5bil, but it can be taken out with 10 destroyers for a nice profit.

All this in Secure Space with the guys doing the infraction earning the most while the victim loses a lot more than all 10 or 20 attackers combined.

But as you can see when the Suicide Gankers see someone trying to add some risk so they might end up losing some ISK and not always make a profit, they come here and say they actually stand to lose the most. What can i say.... LOL.


Yes, if you load up your obelisk with 1 billion in cargo you are increasing your risk of being ganked. Not alot since we are talking about cargo that is just a tad over the break even point. That is, on average if I load up my obelisk with 1 billion in cargo and some gank squad blows it up they can expect to get 500 million isk. And lets break that down, if everyone gets equal shares the ganking pilots will get about 13.25 million isk. The scout and haulers (assuming nobody shoots them) each get 20 million.

And for all those vast riches Roll, you have 25 guys making a coordinated attack plan and carrying it out. Compared to one guy who can't be arsed to even take the most basic of precautions and drop is cargo value down (i.e. make 2 trips of 500 million each) and autopilot his way to wherever while off watching netflix, playing another game, making dinner, etc.

My God...the horror of it all.

Oh, and yeah, if you load up your mission ship with modules that have an expected drop value of 500 million isk or more...you are not being very smart. You have painted a big fat sign on the side of your ships saying, "Gank Me, Please!" I don't see how the game is improved by allowing people to make such poor decisions. How would preventing these people from being ganked make the game better?

You always fail to answer that question.

Here is an idea:

1. No more of those high end deadspace modules. Ever.

Now there is no incentive to gank people, and the lazy/impatient carebears in high sec will have to train the proper skills to use the ships they want to use vs. fitting them with over-priced gank magnet modules to compensate for their low skills.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2013-11-04 16:32:50 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:



OMG this! This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.

If you guys would just fit a tank, much of your problems would go away. Heck you don't even have to do this if you really, really don't want too. But at least realize that EVERYTHING in Eve comes with a trade off. Don't fit a tank, more vulnerable to a suicide gank. Do fit a tank, less mining output. Play solo, you are more vulnerable as you wont have friends to help you (provide boosts, maybe logistics support, etc.). Heck even think outside the damn box, fit a skiff with a tank and a scram and then gank the gankers.

I have seen war dec corps paralyze High Sec corps where the war dec corp has 3-10 guys (say 5 on average) and the other corp 25-50 pilots, say an average of 35 pilots. That is a 7:1 ratio, the decced corp could put 2-3x the number of pilots of the field. But the high sec corps don't do any of the following:

1. Wont train skills so everyone can fly a consistent and cogent fleet doctrine.
2. Wont train skills to fit ships correctly (AWU 5 is an awesome skill, pain to train, but when done...awesome).
3. Are almost afraid to lose a ship, hello this is Eve Online, loosing a ship once in a while is mandatory if you log in and undock. Get used to it.
4. Listen to whomever is in charge of you fleet and do what they tell you to do.
5. Have combat ships on-hand.
6. When you get decced meet in a given system. Numbers is ALWAYS a force multiplier.

Then coming and raging on the forums like a bunch of pansies...why you just feed into the war dec corps and suicide gankers. They just think, "This is awesome, look at them complaining and whining!" And here is an idea...gank them right back. They are in catalysts for the love of God. Get in a catalyst and go shoot them!


Show me a good freighter fit please?

Or a Lvl 4 mission BS fit that can tank 10 destroyers shooting it.

The issue here is not that these ships are ganked and killed. The issue is that the people taking them out stand to lose 10-15mil while they stand to gain 50-100mil per person while the victim can lose a couple of Bil ISK with no possible gain.

This thread is not here to STOP Suicide Ganking.

This thread is here to ask CCP to find a way to get the Suicide Gankers to risk more ISK. That can be achieved in many ways, but something needs to happen, either allow the Victims to tanks the damage(but this would mean rebalancing a lot of ships) or just add more consequences for the Suicide Gankers.

Once it is possible for the Suicide Gankers to lose as much as the victim i will stop posting here. You have my word. It would not even be that much per person as it would be spread between 10+ Suicide Gankers. But it would be a start.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#220 - 2013-11-04 16:38:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Freedom Equality wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:



OMG this! This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.

If you guys would just fit a tank, much of your problems would go away. Heck you don't even have to do this if you really, really don't want too. But at least realize that EVERYTHING in Eve comes with a trade off. Don't fit a tank, more vulnerable to a suicide gank. Do fit a tank, less mining output. Play solo, you are more vulnerable as you wont have friends to help you (provide boosts, maybe logistics support, etc.). Heck even think outside the damn box, fit a skiff with a tank and a scram and then gank the gankers.

I have seen war dec corps paralyze High Sec corps where the war dec corp has 3-10 guys (say 5 on average) and the other corp 25-50 pilots, say an average of 35 pilots. That is a 7:1 ratio, the decced corp could put 2-3x the number of pilots of the field. But the high sec corps don't do any of the following:

1. Wont train skills so everyone can fly a consistent and cogent fleet doctrine.
2. Wont train skills to fit ships correctly (AWU 5 is an awesome skill, pain to train, but when done...awesome).
3. Are almost afraid to lose a ship, hello this is Eve Online, loosing a ship once in a while is mandatory if you log in and undock. Get used to it.
4. Listen to whomever is in charge of you fleet and do what they tell you to do.
5. Have combat ships on-hand.
6. When you get decced meet in a given system. Numbers is ALWAYS a force multiplier.

Then coming and raging on the forums like a bunch of pansies...why you just feed into the war dec corps and suicide gankers. They just think, "This is awesome, look at them complaining and whining!" And here is an idea...gank them right back. They are in catalysts for the love of God. Get in a catalyst and go shoot them!


Show me a good freighter fit please?

Or a Lvl 4 mission BS fit that can tank 10 destroyers shooting it.

The issue here is not that these ships are ganked and killed. The issue is that the people taking them out stand to lose 10-15mil while they stand to gain 50-100mil per person while the victim can lose a couple of Bil ISK with no possible gain.

This thread is not here to STOP Suicide Ganking.

This thread is here to ask CCP to find a way to get the Suicide Gankers to risk more ISK. That can be achieved in many ways, but something needs to happen, either allow the Victims to tanks the damage(but this would mean rebalancing a lot of ships) or just add more consequences for the Suicide Gankers.

Once it is possible for the Suicide Gankers to lose as much as the victim i will stop posting here. You have my word. It would not even be that much per person as it would be spread between 10+ Suicide Gankers. But it would be a start.




For the freighter:

Keep your cargo value at or below 700 million isk. Virtually no risk of a gank.

For the level 4 mission boat:

[Dominix, Ugly Bastard]
Large Armor Repairer II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script
100MN Afterburner II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
[empty high slot]

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Drone Scope Chip I
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I


Hobgoblin II x5
Warden II x5
Garde II x5

Yes, that wont tank 10 catalysts...but it doesn't have too because that fit is never going to drop enough loot in terms of modules to be worth any gank squads time. In short, my low cost fitting is my tank.

Your thinking is just too damn limited. This is why suicide ganking should be allowed, to teach people to start thinking along lines other than, "How can I fit a tank that can with stand 10 guys in catalysts,". Your fit is such that they wont waste their time with you.

Let me add, I am not advocating everyone using a sentry drone domi with a MJD. My point is, fit a reasonably priced, yet effective fit, and you wont have any problems with suicide ganking...well okay except for maybe some people who do it just for luls, but not much you can do about them, IMO. But that is really damn rare.

Oh, and the isk numbers. EFT says that costs 228.7 million isk. About 181 million is the domi hull. That leaves around 48 millionish in modules. On average 24 million will drop. No way 10 catalysts are going to go after that. Maybe 3, possibly 4, but more likely 2. In which case, MJD away align out and warp off to a safe/station.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online