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Intaki and the Federation
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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#141 - 2013-11-05 01:49:51 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:


Kidnapping children for illegal pornography is necessary to eke a living in null sec now?



For a man that speaks of spreading of ignorance, you do enough yourself.


You make a sweeping bullshit statement, I counter it with an example of their actions to challenge it.

Feel free to continue to attempt to re-write history to suit your skewed, bias perspective however, just don't expect me to take it seriously. Come to think of it, I don't think you've ever proven yourself credible when being critical of Federal politics, there's simply too much fantasy and obvious self-interest in your attempt to project this make-believe narrative of yours onto everyone else.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2013-11-05 01:52:29 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Any criminality that exists in the Syndicate is a direct result of Federal laws designed to deny the Intaki of the Syndicate any hope of creating a self-sufficient and strong society. .


Yes, how evil of us to outlaw drug manufacturing and distribution, piracy, theft, terrorism, and all sorts of completely "legitimate" professions. Now the Intaki will be forced to take up horrid jobs such as doctors, engineers, and even presidents! Mwhahahahaha!


How are any of those related to the baffling Federation ban on planetary colonization levied upon the Syndicate?


When you break off from the Federation and commit criminal acts we tend to ban you from doing stuff.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#143 - 2013-11-05 01:55:48 UTC
I think perhaps, prevailing politics aside, the question is probably somewhat less related to how popular or not popular the idea is, but whether it would be better for the Intaki to be independent of the Federation.

It sounds like the answer revolves around one question, whether the benefits the Intaki receive from the Federation outweigh the drawbacks they receive by being part of it. Certainly, they punch above their weight economically and politically as part of the Federation, but they also have to deal with being a target in the CEWPA warfare and the other ills of taking on all the same enemies that the Federation has.

It's somewhat interesting to wonder whether they would be better off on their own. Surely, they would be a target more easily conquered, were that to happen. Then again, they may have less enemies, with warfare being legislated into insignificance, except for those who live in the warzones.

Ultimately, I'd rather see us coming together rather than splintering, as the Lord surely did not intend for us to languish in factionalism. The Scriptures speak very highly of unity, and I think that we have seen, time and again in our history, that we are better when we act as a more understanding, thoughtful whole than a small group. The smaller the group, it seems, the more extreme their views become. Perhaps size really does iron out most of the worst excesses of a people.

I think this is why the Intaki should stay. Perhaps they should have more say in the CEWPA warzone, considering their homeworld appears to be in it, but smaller groups grow to think incestuously, never placing their ideas before large groups of people who might justly criticize them. I think smaller pirate factions, the Sabik, Sansha, and the like, are perfect examples of why the Intaki should probably stay with the Federation. It may not be a perfect union, but it seems like the benefits of having the rest of the Federation with them outweigh the perils of going it alone.

I am learning quite a bit about the Intaki from this thread, though, so I appreciate those who've stayed on the subject matter at hand.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#144 - 2013-11-05 01:58:44 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:


Kidnapping children for illegal pornography is necessary to eke a living in null sec now?



For a man that speaks of spreading of ignorance, you do enough yourself.


You make a sweeping bullshit statement, I counter it with an example of their actions to challenge it.

Feel free to continue to attempt to re-write history to suit your skewed, bias perspective however, just don't expect me to take it seriously. Come to think of it, I don't think you've ever proven yourself credible when being critical of Federal politics, there's simply too much fantasy and obvious self-interest in your attempt to project this make-believe narrative of yours onto everyone else.


And you are making assertions about my personal character because the thoughts I have presented do not appear to confirm your own prejudices.

So.

Fair is fair, I'd say.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2013-11-05 02:02:54 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
And you are making assertions about my personal character because the thoughts I have presented do not appear to confirm your own prejudices.

I don't think Caellach cares that the thoughts you presented don't conform to his prejudices.

I think he cares that they're deeply inaccurate.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#146 - 2013-11-05 02:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:


Kidnapping children for illegal pornography is necessary to eke a living in null sec now?



For a man that speaks of spreading of ignorance, you do enough yourself.


You make a sweeping bullshit statement, I counter it with an example of their actions to challenge it.

Feel free to continue to attempt to re-write history to suit your skewed, bias perspective however, just don't expect me to take it seriously. Come to think of it, I don't think you've ever proven yourself credible when being critical of Federal politics, there's simply too much fantasy and obvious self-interest in your attempt to project this make-believe narrative of yours onto everyone else.


And you are making assertions about my personal character because the thoughts I have presented do not appear to confirm your own prejudices.

So.

Fair is fair, I'd say.


I don't hold prejudice, I've come to judge you on your character, and your constant reinforcement of my initial impressions has only confirmed that suspicion.

If anything you've managed to project one thing succesfully, and it's the fact you're jaded, bias and lacking in any credibility when fairly criticising the Federation. There's no prejudice here, there are citizens of the State who are entirely capable of accurate and intelligent criticism of the Federation, some are even members of the State Protectorate.


Your attempt to claim prejudice against you is as humourous as the fact that despite the amount of vocal caterwauling a large number of State capsuleers make regarding the Federation "meddling in the affairs of others" there's a significant number of you that have no problems with constantly preaching your thinly veiled propaganda and meddling in Federal affairs.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2013-11-05 02:20:50 UTC
Yeah, I've noticed that. Perhaps if the State wants so badly to influence the Federation's internal affairs, it should submit a membership application.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#148 - 2013-11-05 02:22:00 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

I don't think Caellach cares that the thoughts you presented don't conform to his prejudices.

I think he cares that they're deeply inaccurate.


So the Federation does not deny the Intaki Syndicate the ability to colonize planets in the Syndicate region upon pain of military force and invasion?

Caellach Marellus wrote:


Your attempt to claim prejudice against you is as humourous as the fact that despite the amount of vocal caterwauling a large number of State capsuleers make regarding the Federation "meddling in the affairs of others." There's a significant number of you that have no objections to constantly preach your thinly veiled propaganda and meddle in Federal affairs.


Probably as humorous as the fact that I do not see the fact that the Federation actively seeks to meddle in State affairs through political espionage via the FIO and SDII as being relevant to a discussion about its political and economic subjugation of the Intaki Syndicate.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Darian en Chasteaux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2013-11-05 02:23:26 UTC
NNNN

Secure COMMS:

Broadcast Open

http://www.twitch.tv/cdr_zeta

Data Retrieval:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=292708

Mission Status: Unkown...Currently, ACTIVE...
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2013-11-05 02:23:29 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Yeah, I've noticed that. Perhaps if the State wants so badly to influence the Federation's internal affairs, it should submit a membership application.


They would have to pay a 3 trillion dollar security deposit of course, especially after what happened last time...

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#151 - 2013-11-05 02:28:17 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

Probably as humorous as the fact that I do not see the fact that the Federation actively seeks to meddle in State affairs through political espionage via the FIO and SDII as being relevant to a discussion about its political and economic subjugation of the Intaki Syndicate.


You're a member of the State meddling in Federal affairs.

Something that when the shoe is on the other foot, you complain heavily about.


This is humourous, mainly because you've no explanation for such hypocrisy while you continue to shill your twisted perspective of the truth.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#152 - 2013-11-05 02:31:33 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

Probably as humorous as the fact that I do not see the fact that the Federation actively seeks to meddle in State affairs through political espionage via the FIO and SDII as being relevant to a discussion about its political and economic subjugation of the Intaki Syndicate.


You're a member of the State meddling in Federal affairs.

Something that when the shoe is on the other foot, you complain heavily about.


This is humourous, mainly because you've no explanation for such hypocrisy while you continue to shill your twisted perspective of the truth.


Does the Federation promote free and open discussion; or only free and open discussion that re-affirms the authoritarian diktats of Roden and Blaque?

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#153 - 2013-11-05 02:37:31 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

Probably as humorous as the fact that I do not see the fact that the Federation actively seeks to meddle in State affairs through political espionage via the FIO and SDII as being relevant to a discussion about its political and economic subjugation of the Intaki Syndicate.


You're a member of the State meddling in Federal affairs.

Something that when the shoe is on the other foot, you complain heavily about.


This is humourous, mainly because you've no explanation for such hypocrisy while you continue to shill your twisted perspective of the truth.


Does the Federation promote free and open discussion; or only free and open discussion that re-affirms the authoritarian diktats of Roden and Blaque?


Course it does, it also promotes the free use of speech when calling out someone on their bullshit, or pointing out funny moments of hypocrisy. See the thing about free speech, is while you can say what you like, so can others.

So when you pull fantasy based facts out of your backside, expect someone else to pull you up on it.


Which is good for those of us who actually criticise Roden and Blaque for things they're actually guilty of, and not trying to spin a sob story to demonise others for personal gain.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#154 - 2013-11-05 03:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Caellach Marellus wrote:


Course it does, it also promotes the free use of speech when calling out someone on their bullshit, or pointing out funny moments of hypocrisy. See the thing about free speech, is while you can say what you like, so can others.

So when you pull fantasy based facts out of your backside, expect someone else to pull you up on it.


Which is good for those of us who actually criticise Roden and Blaque for things they're actually guilty of, and not trying to spin a sob story to demonise others for personal gain.


You have asserted that I am a hypocrite because, "Other Caldari make claims of Federal meddling in State affairs," when one, it does as the Operation Highlander documents have shown and two, there exists no equivalency in my mind between Federal political espionage against the Caldari State and discussion about the Intaki Syndicate which is a separate entity to the Federation. There would only be equivalency if the concept is held that the Intaki Syndicate is in fact a part of the Federation, which it is not, but it would be the height of parochialism to state that it is so. A parochialism that the Federal government has been more than willing to promote in its foreign policies towards the Intaki Syndicate which continue to seek to use threats, intimidation, economic embargo and political pressure to deny the people of the Syndicate a prosperous life.

However, where the Federation seeks to turn their backs on the Intaki of the Syndicate, marginalize them, demonize them as criminals for nothing more than wishing to live free and independent as they desire I would advocate that State Megacorporations see this as on opportunity. An opportunity to recognize how the Federation have failed the people of the Syndicate and the chance to seek mutually advantageous projects and deals that benefit both the Caldari and the Intaki.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#155 - 2013-11-05 03:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

How are any of those related to the baffling Federation ban on planetary colonization levied upon the Syndicate?


When you break off from the Federation and commit criminal acts we tend to ban you from doing stuff.


Bah, more flame bait. Nevermind.

Katrina Oniseki
Vikarion
Doomheim
#156 - 2013-11-05 04:17:14 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

You're a member of the State meddling in Federal affairs.


The Federation trying to plant spies in the State? Eh, not interference. The Federation, a few years ago, trying to invade a Caldari Station with Marines? Eh, just a "humanitarian mission". A State loyalist discussing the Federation's actions towards an external entity? GOOD GODS, THE STATE IS TRYING TO MEDDLE IN OUR AFFAIRS! QUICK, EVERYONE LOOK AT THE HORRIBLE STATE LOYALIST MEDDLING IN OUR AFFAIRS BY TALKING!

And this from the side that's supposed to be all free speech and human rights. Oh, wait, I forgot. You're only human if you think the Federation does everything right.

I can't wait until we're "meddling in Federal affairs" by just disliking them over here. Roll
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#157 - 2013-11-05 04:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


You have asserted that I am a hypocrite


No I haven't, I've said it's a hypocritical to see Caldari complaining about others meddling in their affairs, even going as far as whining and complaining when people post in "their" threads, only to do the same here.

As for the Syndicate, if they really were the hard done by innocent victims you seem to play the sob story for, why didn't the State take them in as friends and supporters, hrm? Now I can't read minds or talk to dead people, but I'm quietly confident that the same reasons they were exiled for, are the same qualities of terrorism and violence that the State wouldn't really want to inherit.


Vikarion wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

You're a member of the State meddling in Federal affairs.


The Federation trying to plant spies in the State? Eh, not interference. The Federation, a few years ago, trying to invade a Caldari Station with Marines? Eh, just a "humanitarian mission". A State loyalist discussing the Federation's actions towards an external entity? GOOD GODS, THE STATE IS TRYING TO MEDDLE IN OUR AFFAIRS! QUICK, EVERYONE LOOK AT THE HORRIBLE STATE LOYALIST MEDDLING IN OUR AFFAIRS BY TALKING!

And this from the side that's supposed to be all free speech and human rights. Oh, wait, I forgot. You're only human if you think the Federation does everything right.

I can't wait until we're "meddling in Federal affairs" by just disliking them over here. Roll




Because reading the rest of the discussion is hard... or actually reading anything and not taking it out of context to suit is hard for you. Discussion is fine (well actually as I pointed out earlier, even that sets people off before now) it's when poor attempts to sow seeds of discontent and try to drive a wedge into a gap that it doesn't fit? That's meddling in affairs, it's the same with the relationship between the Federation and the Republic.

You don't comment because you want discussion, you post a bunch of provocative bullshit with about as much truth to it as a rumour I found out JUST NOW that Andreus Ixiris has been secretly dating Diana Kim for the past 6 months. You're not posting to talk and converse or even properly debate, if you were you would actually stick to facts and not scaremonger tactics with an all too eager ploy to encourage secession and isolantionism out of sheer spite.


Edit: I just noticed how you mock the Federation for coming up with excuses for it's meddling and then try to pass off obvious attempts at defamation as "discussing." Excellent demonstration of hypocrisy. thank you.


As I said before, you're free to say what you like, just as much as I'm free to call you out on your utter bullshit.


And you've had plenty of utter bullshit over the years to spew, Vikarion.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#158 - 2013-11-05 04:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Caellach Marellus wrote:


No I haven't, I've said it's a hypocritical to see Caldari complaining about others meddling in their affairs, even going as far as whining and complaining when people post in "their" threads, only to do the same here.


I would say there exists a distinction between the legitimate concerns of Federal political espionage and spying directed against the Caldari State and a discussion about Federal foreign policy as regards its coercive acts against an independent polity such as the Intaki Syndicate.

Am I to take it, that pointing out Federal meddling in the affairs of the Caldari State and the Intaki Syndicate is in fact meddling according to Federal apologists?



Caellach Marellus wrote:
As for the Syndicate, if they really were the hard done by innocent victims you seem to play the sob story for, why didn't the State take them in as friends and supporters, hrm? Now I can't read minds or talk to dead people, but I'm quietly confident that the same reasons they were exiled for, are the same qualities of terrorism and violence that the State wouldn't really want to inherit.


I might counter that the Caldari State and its Megacorporations realize that the people of the Intaki Syndicate wish to live their own lives as they see fit, which is a worthy concept, and one that should be respected. A respect that the Federation at least does not afford them.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#159 - 2013-11-05 04:54:05 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:


No I haven't, I've said it's a hypocritical to see Caldari complaining about others meddling in their affairs, even going as far as whining and complaining when people post in "their" threads, only to do the same here.


I would say there exists a distinction between the legitimate concerns of Federal political espionage and spying directed against the Caldari State and a discussion about Federal foreign policy as regards its coercive acts against an independent polity such as the Intaki Syndicate.

Am I to take it, that pointing out Federal meddling in the affairs of the Caldari State and the Intaki Syndicate is in fact meddling according to Federal apologists?


Federal citizens commenting on threads involving State affairs on the IGS has resulted in the cries of "The Federation is meddling in our affairs" before now. You don't need to go to large political extremes to find a comparison.



Caellach Marellus wrote:
I might counter that the Caldari State and its Megacorporations realize that the people of the Intaki Syndicate wish to live their own lives as they see fit, which is a worthy concept, and one that should be respected. A respect that the Federation at least does not afford them.


This would be an almost acceptable theory, until you ask yourself who willingly would choose exile in such a vaste waste of space with small numbers when a chance to be with the people you supported, which was the cause of your exile, is an option?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#160 - 2013-11-05 05:08:20 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:


Federal citizens commenting on threads involving State affairs on the IGS has resulted in the cries of "The Federation is meddling in our affairs" before now. You don't need to go to large political extremes to find a comparison.


As I've already stated, the Federation does in fact actively meddle in the affairs of foreign powers through political espionage and subversive actions. It is a legitimate claim to make and one that is based in fact and evidence. I'm still uncertain what Federal espionage targeting the State has to do with Federal foreign policy towards the Intaki Syndicate. Unless you're trying to defend some sort of Federal right to spying on others and meddling in the affairs of foreign powers that should never be questioned?



Caellach Marellus wrote:

This would be an almost acceptable theory, until you ask yourself who willingly would choose exile in such a vaste waste of space with small numbers when a chance to be with the people you supported, which was the cause of your exile, is an option?


In much the same way the Thukker would have willingly chosen an exile in a vaste waste of space with small numbers: frontier independence can have its own appeal for those that value their freedom and liberty.

Kurilaivonen|Concern