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Intaki and the Federation
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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-11-03 00:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Marellus your ability to imbue me with a level of malevolence towards the Federation never ceases to amaze.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
with the Gallente dragging the Minmatar into their war against the State, who else was the State to ally with?

Well, when you outright lie about the Federation, what else are we to think, you ******* idiot?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#62 - 2013-11-03 00:58:12 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:


A gripe within the Federation, not so much a personal gripe but still something that doesn't sit right with me, is the similarities between incidents and the reactions to them within the State.


This is an easy claim to make and, yet, it is the details that make the difference, as I hope I'll lay out.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
Terrorists bomb Nouvelle Rouvenour, it's the tipping point that begins bombards, receives constant criticism that the Caldari were attacked for the actions of terrorists.

Noir orchestrates the Malkalen incident, it's the incident that leads to the massacre at Algogille the assault on Caldari Prime, the placement of a State Titan in a Federal system and the rebirth of the Federal/State war. Apparently all justified in response to a Federal (despite disavowed in every official and near unofficial *conspiracy theorists aside* capacity) attack.


Man crashes a Super Carrier into a station, kills thousands of innocents, decried as a monster, traitor, terrorist and shamed.

Man crashes a Carrier into a planet, kills thousands of innocents, praised as a hero, is a cornerstone of education and an eternal legend in State folklore.


Noir was an envoy of the Federation, granted safe passage because of this. He was handpicked by the Federation and flying one of their flagships. He rammed a station that was the site of a peace conference, under a flag of truce.

Nouvelle Rouvenor was bombed by terrorists, holding no mandate from the State.


Noir crashed a Super Carrier into a station holding a peace conference. He was either an agent of the Federation or else running the mother of all false-flag operations. There was no state of war. His action saved no lives, touched off a war that is still raging.

Tovil-Toba crashed a crippled Carrier into the atmosphere of a planet that we were at war with and who were carrying out bombardment of our world and shooting down innocents attempting to escape. He did so, in extremis, after fighting a highly successful assymetrical engagement against a Navy that vastly outnumbered him. His sacrifice ended a war that was costing lives and allowed the rest of the civilian population of Caldari Prime to escape.

As I said, I understand your point, but you have to conceded that in no way are these scenarios anything more than superficially similar.



Caellach Marellus wrote:
Honestly? Call me a Hawk, but that was part of a series of weak, knee-jerk panic reactions by Foiritan. He quickly conceded Caldari Prime, and under the threat of the Shiigeru in Luminaire signed concessions that threw Intaki, his ancestral homeworld, in the line of fire. If anything the Intaki were betrayed by the man they voted in themselves, not that it in any way it puts the blame on them, but it was something the Federation learned all too late.

Foiritan was a great peace time leader, who could oversee positive diplomacy and economical growth, but had no clue what the hell to do when **** hit the fan.

The day the guns stop firing is a day I'll be drinking to remember and celebrate something, and not to cope with the day that was.


Honestly, the only good thing I see coming out of Foiritan calling Heth's bluff would have been everyone finding out who the man truly was five years early. As valuable a moment of ephiphany as this would have been for the State, I'd rather not have it bought for the price of a devastated Gallente Prime.

It honestly might have been smarter to simply yield Caldari Prime back to the State.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2013-11-03 01:00:55 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Marellus your ability to imbue me with a level of malevolence towards the Federation never ceases to amaze.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
with the Gallente dragging the Minmatar into their war against the State, who else was the State to ally with?

Well, when you outright lie about the Federation, what else are we to think, you ******* idiot?


So, you're saying the State and the Republic would have been at war regardless of the Federation/Republic alliance?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#64 - 2013-11-03 01:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
So, you're saying the State and the Republic would have been at war regardless of the Federation/Republic alliance?

No, most likely there wouldn't have been a Republic without said alliance.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#65 - 2013-11-03 01:22:52 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


Caellach Marellus wrote:
Honestly? Call me a Hawk, but that was part of a series of weak, knee-jerk panic reactions by Foiritan. He quickly conceded Caldari Prime, and under the threat of the Shiigeru in Luminaire signed concessions that threw Intaki, his ancestral homeworld, in the line of fire. If anything the Intaki were betrayed by the man they voted in themselves, not that it in any way it puts the blame on them, but it was something the Federation learned all too late.

Foiritan was a great peace time leader, who could oversee positive diplomacy and economical growth, but had no clue what the hell to do when **** hit the fan.

The day the guns stop firing is a day I'll be drinking to remember and celebrate something, and not to cope with the day that was.


Honestly, the only good thing I see coming out of Foiritan calling Heth's bluff would have been everyone finding out who the man truly was five years early. As valuable a moment of ephiphany as this would have been for the State, I'd rather not have it bought for the price of a devastated Gallente Prime.

It honestly might have been smarter to simply yield Caldari Prime back to the State.


I think you do Souro too much credit, I'm not sure it was Caldari Prime he was concerned would be glassed.

As far as yielding goes, when you ask questions about how the Federation could sign away the security of Intaki, perhaps look to the State's history when they signed away Caldari Prime at the treaty of Tierijev. There are times concession seems on paper to be the better course of action, whether that's short term solutions for long term issues is another matter.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-11-03 02:25:44 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
So, you're saying the State and the Republic would have been at war regardless of the Federation/Republic alliance?

No. Forget it. I'm not in the mood to explain to a ******* capsuleer how powerblocs and military alliances work. The moment that became neccessary, the outlay of effort and engagement required to continue having this discussion immediately began to vastly exceed the possible benefit it could possibly produce.

You are deliberately using misleading language to malign the Federation.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-11-03 02:36:43 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
So, you're saying the State and the Republic would have been at war regardless of the Federation/Republic alliance?

No. Forget it. I'm not in the mood to explain to a ******* capsuleer how powerblocs and military alliances work. The moment that became neccessary, the outlay of effort and engagement required to continue having this discussion immediately began to vastly exceed the possible benefit it could possibly produce.

You are deliberately using misleading language to malign the Federation.


I'd say misleading language is used more often by Federalists to malign the State due to its own military alliance with the Empire to create false hypothetical arguments in contravention of the facts, such as the Caldari State supporting slavery which is not the case.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-11-03 02:40:36 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I'd say misleading language is used more often by Federalists

Even if this were true, as a hypothetical it has precisely zero relevance to the misleading language Pieter is actually using right now.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-11-03 02:43:22 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I'd say misleading language is used more often by Federalists

Even if this were true, as a hypothetical it has precisely zero relevance to the misleading language Pieter is actually using right now.


Just because he does not confirm the prejudices of Federalists, does not make his language misleading.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-11-03 02:56:55 UTC
Then by your twisted logic, the Amarr were "dragged into" a war with the Federation by the State.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#71 - 2013-11-03 03:20:34 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Then by your twisted logic, the Amarr were "dragged into" a war with the Federation by the State.


Of course, as far as I'm aware that is about right for the activation of a Mutual Defence Pact. The difference here is that the treaty between the State and Empire is one signed between equals, unlike that between the Federation and Republic where the Federal Senate has enough political and economic leverage to "persuade" the Minmatar to act against their own self-interests.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#72 - 2013-11-03 03:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
... unlike that between the Federation and Republic where the Federal Senate has enough political and economic leverage to "persuade" the Minmatar to act against their own self-interests.


They ... The Republic really doesn't need persuasion for that.

Katrina Oniseki
Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#73 - 2013-11-03 03:31:03 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
We crossed the border because a Gallente Admiral stuffed a Nyx into a station in the Malkalen system killing... well... I don't really need to finish that sentence, do I?

But really, trade is good, isn't it? Perhaps I'm not being the face of Kaalakiota as well as I should, but I am convinced that the rest of the cluster has things of value and interest for us. And people of value and interest for us, too.


I like you, Pieter.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 
Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#74 - 2013-11-03 03:34:10 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
... unlike that between the Federation and Republic where the Federal Senate has enough political and economic leverage to "persuade" the Minmatar to act against their own self-interests.


They really don't need persuasion for that.


Please, do not use blanket statements like "they" when making references such as this, unless you wish others to return the favor? It's tacky.

Rest assured, the lion's share of my people are well aware that the recent spate of self destructive stupidity from my government is not in our best interests.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#75 - 2013-11-03 03:41:52 UTC
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:

Please, do not use blanket statements like "they" when making references such as this, unless you wish others to return the favor? It's tacky.

Rest assured, the lion's share of my people are well aware that the recent spate of self destructive stupidity from my government is not in our best interests.


Agreed, and fixed.

My apologies.

Katrina Oniseki
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#76 - 2013-11-03 04:07:32 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Then by your twisted logic, the Amarr were "dragged into" a war with the Federation by the State.


Except that two powers as ideologically opposed and expansionistic as the Federation and the Empire would have moved against each other eventually, anyway.

Even if the aid you gave the Minmatar hadn't already given them a cause for war.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2013-11-03 04:09:15 UTC
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
We crossed the border because a Gallente Admiral stuffed a Nyx into a station in the Malkalen system killing... well... I don't really need to finish that sentence, do I?

But really, trade is good, isn't it? Perhaps I'm not being the face of Kaalakiota as well as I should, but I am convinced that the rest of the cluster has things of value and interest for us. And people of value and interest for us, too.


I like you, Pieter.


And I like you too, Kyllsa.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-11-03 04:22:04 UTC
Too many talks about this little planet.
Better grab your guns and throw out filthy gallentean occupants out.
Time to finish with gallentean oppressors. And not just in Intaki. In whole Placid.

Only today we kicked out gallentean occupants from two other systems in Placid. .
Glory to the State!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#79 - 2013-11-03 08:52:47 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Noir was an envoy of the Federation, granted safe passage because of this. He was handpicked by the Federation and flying one of their flagships. He rammed a station that was the site of a peace conference, under a flag of truce.

Nouvelle Rouvenor was bombed by terrorists, holding no mandate from the State.


Noir crashed a Super Carrier into a station holding a peace conference. He was either an agent of the Federation or else running the mother of all false-flag operations. There was no state of war. His action saved no lives, touched off a war that is still raging.


I still fail to see the difference between Malkalen and Nouvelle Rouvenor...

Both were terrorist attacks and condemned by their respective governments.

The State claims that the Federation try to hide their implication in Malkalen by condemning Noir, the Federation blamed the State to have secretly backed Nouvelle Rouvenor in the past. Where is the difference ?

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Then by your twisted logic, the Amarr were "dragged into" a war with the Federation by the State.


Except that two powers as ideologically opposed and expansionistic as the Federation and the Empire would have moved against each other eventually, anyway.

Even if the aid you gave the Minmatar hadn't already given them a cause for war.


Except nothing of the sort has happened yet, besides that proxy war. The only thing that has happened between the Federation and the Empire has always been small incidents quickly solved by mutually beneficial agreements (Iyen-Oursta/Quafe), or convergent ideals on cluster politics (Aidonis/Heideran).

You are trying to create/seee conflict where there is only in the mass media.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#80 - 2013-11-03 13:34:36 UTC
I'm sure the Caldari capsuleers are trying to keep face, but I find it hard to believe that a State where the largest constituent is an arms manufacturer wants universal peace, love, and a total end to all war.