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Intaki and the Federation
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Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#361 - 2013-11-21 03:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Regarding the charter, we do have a say (that's kind of why we are a Federation) but it's ultimately up to the Intaki. However, what makes a Federation work is cooperation. If the Senate votes to force Ishukone presence out, for whatever reason, then the Intaki would have to comply, that's part of being a member of our great nation.


Ah yes. This part of the Federation we remember well. The "We don't care how well it's working for you and your people, if for whatever reason we decide to force an end to the agreement then you have to comply" part.


First off, this is a Federation. Collectivism is practiced here as well. If the entire Federation is suffering because of the actions of one member state, the laws are changed.

Of course, there are ways that a state, district, region or whatever can avoid Federation wide laws. Most of the time they comply, if conflict emerges an opt out can be negotiated or they merely tweak local laws to be more compatible with nationwide laws.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#362 - 2013-11-21 10:30:20 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

First off, this is a Federation. Collectivism is practiced here as well. If the entire Federation is suffering because of the actions of one member state, the laws are changed.

And when one member state is suffering because of the actions of the entire Federation and tries to leave, it is bombarded from the orbit...

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2013-11-21 15:39:32 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

First off, this is a Federation. Collectivism is practiced here as well. If the entire Federation is suffering because of the actions of one member state, the laws are changed.

And when one member state is suffering because of the actions of the entire Federation and tries to leave, it is bombarded from the orbit...


Now, now, we both know it's more complicated then that.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#364 - 2013-11-21 17:13:20 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

First off, this is a Federation. Collectivism is practiced here as well. If the entire Federation is suffering because of the actions of one member state, the laws are changed.

And when one member state is suffering because of the actions of the entire Federation and tries to leave, it is bombarded from the orbit...


Now, now, we both know it's more complicated then that.


The sooner relations are normalised between the State and Federation the sooner we can start laying a foundation of compromise and cooperation - rather than violence and mistrust.

Until that foundation is laid, however, you have to remember that our experience with the Federation over the last two centuries has been one of duplicity, aggression and antipathy.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2013-11-21 17:52:06 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Until that foundation is laid, however, you have to remember that our experience with the Federation over the last two centuries has been one of duplicity, aggression and antipathy.

As has the Federation's experience with the State, lest you attempt yet again to imply the State was in any way remotely blameless.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#366 - 2013-11-21 17:57:51 UTC
I never did claim that, Andreus, but if you make a list I'm sure you'll notice that one is much longer than the other.

And one of the lists only has a major incident on it if you count seizing your own homeworld back by force as a bad thing.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2013-11-21 18:00:02 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I never did claim that, Andreus, but if you make a list I'm sure you'll notice that one is much longer than the other.

Yes, but it's not the one you're implying.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#368 - 2013-11-21 18:00:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

The sooner relations are normalised between the State and Federation the sooner we can start laying a foundation of compromise and cooperation - rather than violence and mistrust.

Until that foundation is laid, however, you have to remember that our experience with the Federation over the last two centuries has been one of duplicity, aggression and antipathy.

Over two last centuries it was rather humiliation and shameful compromises with those, who don't deserve them.
Only five years ago Tibus Heth with proud Caldari citizens has restored dignity of the State. And even if he isn't with us anymore, we will continue the fight. We will fight for our future, for future of our children and in the name of our ancestors. We will make sure, our daughters won't be gallentean exotic dancers, and our sons won't become federation's freedom fighters. We will protect our way of life, and way of our ancestors. We will defend our property, that we worked for with our blood and sweat. And we will protect our planets and lands, that were entrusted to us by our ancestors, or were cultivated by brave Caldari explorers and settlers.

We will finish, what Tibus Heth has started.
Winds will help us.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#369 - 2013-11-21 18:21:56 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I never did claim that, Andreus, but if you make a list I'm sure you'll notice that one is much longer than the other.

Yes, but it's not the one you're implying.


Do we have to have this discussion again? Because I will, if you insist.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2013-11-21 18:51:01 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Do we have to have this discussion again? Because I will, if you insist.

If we are to examine the entire history of the State with an unkind eye, it's one big checklist of agreements and contracts - honour and integrity being supposed cornerstones of Caldari culture - that the State decided it could ignore because they became inconvenient to continue abiding by, and a long, long series of things that it was fine for the Caldari to do - occupying and bombarding planets, breaking treaties, conducting espionage, unapologetic corporate malfesence, cultural imperialism - but atrocious for their enemies to do.

Individual Caldari may be trustworthy individuals - indeed, most are - but the State is a fundamentally untrustworthy entity for whom honour is paramount only until dishonour is expedient and agreements are sacrosanct only until violation is convenient. Every mistake the Federation ever made has been made - allowing ourselves to be ruled by a treasonous madman, violating sworn agreements, putting the desires of rich men before the good of the people, getting into perpetual wars that benefited no-one - by the State and managed to have worse fallout.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#371 - 2013-11-21 19:01:36 UTC
Interesting that you use the word 'fallout'.

But I'm going to exercise restraint and NOT have this conversation after all. You've heard it all. I've heard it all. Everybody else has heard it all. I'm not going to have the 'Taxes, Blockade, Insurrection, Nouvelle Rouvenor, Bombardment, War, Malkalen, Caldari Prime', discussion.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#372 - 2013-11-21 19:18:16 UTC
Yeah! Enough talks.

Lets just smash the Federation away and scatter it to pieces.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#373 - 2013-11-21 19:57:09 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Winds will help us.


Judging by recent events, the winds are either against you or suck at their job.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#374 - 2013-11-21 20:04:57 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Winds will help us.


Judging by recent events, the winds are either against you or suck at their job.

Oh, another ignorant gallentean appeared, right?
You have like what, 10% of systems left, right?
Go check combat records first, post gallentean rants later.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2013-11-21 20:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Diana Kim wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Winds will help us.


Judging by recent events, the winds are either against you or suck at their job.

Oh, another ignorant gallentean appeared, right?
You have like what, 10% of systems left, right?
Go check combat records first, post gallentean rants later.


I was referring to how the CEP kicked out you treasonous Provist ruffians, and how your former leader is now getting rectal implants from Uncle Sansha. Clearly if the winds are not very happy with your lot.

Also, you've been in this militia business long enough to know that it's merely a pendulum that swings back in forth. A little over a month ago the situation was the exact opposite, with the Federal militias controlling most of the field. Even still, this gain isn't even because of Caldari military might. It's because my old pals in TEST got bored and decided to join in the proxy war for a bit.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#376 - 2013-11-21 20:24:27 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Even still, this gain isn't even because of Caldari military might. It's because my old pals in TEST got bored and decided to join in the proxy war for a bit.

Watch the pendulum swing right back the other way once TEST leaves.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#377 - 2013-11-21 22:03:16 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Even still, this gain isn't even because of Caldari military might. It's because my old pals in TEST got bored and decided to join in the proxy war for a bit.


To be fair this is equally true for those periods when the FDU holds the field. Military might almost never has much of a bearing either way - because destruction of fleet assets has no bearing on the war, it's mostly about who is willing to patrol military complexes.

And it's always about which capsuleer organisations are taking part.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#378 - 2013-11-21 22:14:27 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Even still, this gain isn't even because of Caldari military might. It's because my old pals in TEST got bored and decided to join in the proxy war for a bit.


To be fair this is equally true for those periods when the FDU holds the field. Military might almost never has much of a bearing either way - because destruction of fleet assets has no bearing on the war, it's mostly about who is willing to patrol military complexes.

And it's always about which capsuleer organisations are taking part.


You're mostly correct. Though an alliance the size of TEST has never involved themselves in the proxy wars before, at least on the Gallente- Caldari front.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#379 - 2013-11-21 22:16:35 UTC
Actually, Ev0ke joined the State Protectorate after getting run out of nullsec on a rail.

It killed them even faster than simply stagnating in hi-sec would have done.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#380 - 2013-11-21 22:28:26 UTC
The CEWPA is nothing more than CONCORD building an in space variation of a children's play pen in a shopping district, where you can leave your kids to be happily occupied while you go about your business.


Boasting about success is like trying to hog all the balls in the ball pen.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.