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Intaki and the Federation
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Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#341 - 2013-11-20 22:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Agiri Falken
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
She certainly doesn't help dispel racial stereotypes regarding Civire.

I'm sure she'll get a brief bit of fame on the chat show circuit that more than covers the medical expenses.


Do you know what? I'm going to fund a hand-to-hand training package for her. The last thing this poor woman needs is snide comments from the peanut gallery.

Uhm... Suuolo... I know you've never tried hitting my dropsuit, but it really is like smashing your hand into a wall. With the wall, you mangle your fist, with the dropsuit, you **** the goon wearing it off... Then mangle your fist. ...But I'd definately raise a glass to that woman's fighting spirit, if nothing else.

And yes... I know what hitting one is like because I got too curious (read: plastered and goaded) and tried once... Had my hand in a cast for a week while nannites fixed the fractures. Lesson learned. Don't punch an exosuit... It only LOOKS like relatively normal body armor.

Laugh it up kids. I get a good giggle out of the memory, regardless.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#342 - 2013-11-20 22:30:32 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
GoGo Yubari wrote:
Actually, as to planetary affairs, the Intaki form of democracy still prevails as per the agreement with Ishukone

Actually, as per the agreement with Ishukone, Intaki government is not affected whatsoever, and remains a member of the Federation regardless of illicit occupation by State forces.


Nothing illicit about it, Andreus. Whether or not it's sane or not, it's certainly aboveboard and legal.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#343 - 2013-11-20 22:35:22 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
GoGo Yubari wrote:
Actually, as to planetary affairs, the Intaki form of democracy still prevails as per the agreement with Ishukone

Actually, as per the agreement with Ishukone, Intaki government is not affected whatsoever, and remains a member of the Federation regardless of illicit occupation by State forces.


Hmm. So, both the Federation, the State, and CONCORD agree to the whole low-sec war deal, and occupation is illicit? Illicit by whose laws? Not CONCORD's, or the State's, or the Federation's, or even those of Intaki, because the Intaki have expressed their desire to exist as essentially an economic colony of Ishukone even when granted an opportunity to renege.

Since something "illicit" has to be against the law, you need to provide a current law that is being violated.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#344 - 2013-11-20 22:44:30 UTC
Vikarion wrote:


Hmm. So, both the Federation, the State, and CONCORD agree to the whole low-sec war deal, and occupation is illicit? Illicit by whose laws? Not CONCORD's, or the State's, or the Federation's, or even those of Intaki, because the Intaki have expressed their desire to exist as essentially an economic colony of Ishukone even when granted an opportunity to renege.


Except that they haven't, or at least only the extreme minority of Intaki have. If they wanted to secede from the Federation they would have done it a long time ago.

I also find it very interesting how many Caldari claim the Federation isf eeping the Intaki nation against their will and that the Intaki should be independent, while simultaneously trying to annex Intaki every bloody chance they get.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#345 - 2013-11-20 22:46:12 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


Hmm. So, both the Federation, the State, and CONCORD agree to the whole low-sec war deal, and occupation is illicit? Illicit by whose laws? Not CONCORD's, or the State's, or the Federation's, or even those of Intaki, because the Intaki have expressed their desire to exist as essentially an economic colony of Ishukone even when granted an opportunity to renege.


Except that they haven't, or at least only the extreme minority of Intaki have. If they wanted to secede from the Federation they would have done it a long time ago.

I also find it very interesting how many Caldari claim the Federation isf eeping the Intaki nation against their will and that the Intaki should be independent, while simultaneously trying to annex Intaki every bloody chance they get.


Come on Fred, which part of 'The Warzone' is escaping you? Most of the Militia that 'annex' Intaki are doing so solely because of the big sign hanging on it's rotational axis saying 'Legitimate Target - Come and Get me!'

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#346 - 2013-11-20 22:46:58 UTC
Agiri Falken wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
She certainly doesn't help dispel racial stereotypes regarding Civire.

I'm sure she'll get a brief bit of fame on the chat show circuit that more than covers the medical expenses.


Do you know what? I'm going to fund a hand-to-hand training package for her. The last thing this poor woman needs is snide comments from the peanut gallery.

Uhm... Suuolo... I know you've never tried hitting my dropsuit, but it really is like smashing your hand into a wall. With the wall, you mangle your fist, with the dropsuit, you **** the goon wearing it off... Then mangle your fist. ...But I'd definately raise a glass to that woman's fighting spirit, if nothing else.

And yes... I know what hitting one is like because I got too curious (read: plastered and goaded) and tried once... Had my hand in a cast for a week while nannites fixed the fractures. Lesson learned. Don't punch an exosuit... It only LOOKS like relatively normal body armor.

Laugh it up kids. I get a good giggle out of the memory, regardless.


Should have used your head, chaika. You'd have stood a decent chance of cracking it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2013-11-20 22:51:39 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Come on Fred, which part of 'The Warzone' is escaping you? Most of the Militia that 'annex' Intaki are doing so solely because of the big sign hanging on it's rotational axis saying 'Legitimate Target - Come and Get me!'


You're right, though the only reason why it is a legitimate target is because of Caldari representatives in CONCORD. That said, there are certainly State owned planets being targeted by the Federation that really shouldn't be targets as well.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Vikarion
Doomheim
#348 - 2013-11-20 23:04:59 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


Hmm. So, both the Federation, the State, and CONCORD agree to the whole low-sec war deal, and occupation is illicit? Illicit by whose laws? Not CONCORD's, or the State's, or the Federation's, or even those of Intaki, because the Intaki have expressed their desire to exist as essentially an economic colony of Ishukone even when granted an opportunity to renege.


Except that they haven't, or at least only the extreme minority of Intaki have. If they wanted to secede from the Federation they would have done it a long time ago.

I also find it very interesting how many Caldari claim the Federation isf eeping the Intaki nation against their will and that the Intaki should be independent, while simultaneously trying to annex Intaki every bloody chance they get.


No, they really have. Or did you miss the news articles when the Federation finally retook the system the first time around? The Intaki Assembly turned away the Federation troops and ships in favor of continuing the arrangement with Ishukone and allocating security to Mordu's Legion.

Now, note that I did not say that the Intaki have seceded from the Federation. Politically, the Intaki are full members of the Federation and appear to wish to be so. Economically, however, Ishukone has been and remains the primary economic entity of note in the system, having been given developmental rights over it by both the Intaki Assembly and Caldari law.

To be honest, I'm not sure why this is even considered a problem by Federal supporters.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#349 - 2013-11-20 23:33:10 UTC
Just so you know, Fred, it's safe to ignore pretty much anything that Vikarion says. He's an "ex-"Sansha plant with no actual loyalty to the State, who went on record several times as saying he considers it viable to ally the State to Nation. I can't even see what he's actually saying since he was pretty much the first person I used the IGS' block function on.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2013-11-20 23:36:03 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


Hmm. So, both the Federation, the State, and CONCORD agree to the whole low-sec war deal, and occupation is illicit? Illicit by whose laws? Not CONCORD's, or the State's, or the Federation's, or even those of Intaki, because the Intaki have expressed their desire to exist as essentially an economic colony of Ishukone even when granted an opportunity to renege.


Except that they haven't, or at least only the extreme minority of Intaki have. If they wanted to secede from the Federation they would have done it a long time ago.

I also find it very interesting how many Caldari claim the Federation isf eeping the Intaki nation against their will and that the Intaki should be independent, while simultaneously trying to annex Intaki every bloody chance they get.


No, they really have. Or did you miss the news articles when the Federation finally retook the system the first time around? The Intaki Assembly turned away the Federation troops and ships in favor of continuing the arrangement with Ishukone and allocating security to Mordu's Legion.

Now, note that I did not say that the Intaki have seceded from the Federation. Politically, the Intaki are full members of the Federation and appear to wish to be so. Economically, however, Ishukone has been and remains the primary economic entity of note in the system, having been given developmental rights over it by both the Intaki Assembly and Caldari law.

To be honest, I'm not sure why this is even considered a problem by Federal supporters.


They turned away FDU troops and vessels to my understanding. The FDU, like the State Protectorate is really just a government sponsored militia. I can see why they wouldn't be fond of their presence given that much like the other nation's militias, there are a lot of sketchy folk in the FDU.

The main problem is that there is heavy State influence on a Federal system. I'd imagine the State would react poorly if say, a major Achuran system had it's industrial facilities bought out by Roden Shipyards.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Vikarion
Doomheim
#351 - 2013-11-20 23:46:33 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

They turned away FDU troops and vessels to my understanding. The FDU, like the State Protectorate is really just a government sponsored militia. I can see why they wouldn't be fond of their presence given that much like the other nation's militias, there are a lot of sketchy folk in the FDU.

The main problem is that there is heavy State influence on a Federal system. I'd imagine the State would react poorly if say, a major Achuran system had it's industrial facilities bought out by Roden Shipyards.


No, they turned away Federal forces. Go find the articles, although I had thought this recent enough to be public knowlege. The article I linked was merely a final reiteration of the state of affairs to FDU pilots who were attacking Ishukone ships in Intaki after being displeased by the refusal of the Assembly to allow Federal troops back in. That's why Mordu is providing security.

And, according to the Federal Charter that the Intaki utilized, the Federation doesn't get to have a say on whether Intaki wants the Caldari there. As for Federal corporations, I imagine that if you knew very much about cluster affairs, you would be aware of the fact that Quafe, a Gallente company, is registered as a Caldari-accepted Megacorporation.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#352 - 2013-11-20 23:47:50 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Agiri Falken wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
She certainly doesn't help dispel racial stereotypes regarding Civire.

I'm sure she'll get a brief bit of fame on the chat show circuit that more than covers the medical expenses.


Do you know what? I'm going to fund a hand-to-hand training package for her. The last thing this poor woman needs is snide comments from the peanut gallery.

Uhm... Suuolo... I know you've never tried hitting my dropsuit, but it really is like smashing your hand into a wall. With the wall, you mangle your fist, with the dropsuit, you **** the goon wearing it off... Then mangle your fist. ...But I'd definately raise a glass to that woman's fighting spirit, if nothing else.

And yes... I know what hitting one is like because I got too curious (read: plastered and goaded) and tried once... Had my hand in a cast for a week while nannites fixed the fractures. Lesson learned. Don't punch an exosuit... It only LOOKS like relatively normal body armor.

Laugh it up kids. I get a good giggle out of the memory, regardless.


Should have used your head, chaika. You'd have stood a decent chance of cracking it.

Well... Plasma rifles use lead charges. You might be onto something... Smart ass. :-P
Vikarion
Doomheim
#353 - 2013-11-20 23:47:59 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Just so you know, Fred, it's safe to ignore pretty much anything that Vikarion says. He's an "ex-"Sansha plant with no actual loyalty to the State, who went on record several times as saying he considers it viable to ally the State to Nation. I can't even see what he's actually saying since he was pretty much the first person I used the IGS' block function on.


You really want to start this again? Don't you ever consider inventing new lies?
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2013-11-21 00:24:52 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

They turned away FDU troops and vessels to my understanding. The FDU, like the State Protectorate is really just a government sponsored militia. I can see why they wouldn't be fond of their presence given that much like the other nation's militias, there are a lot of sketchy folk in the FDU.

The main problem is that there is heavy State influence on a Federal system. I'd imagine the State would react poorly if say, a major Achuran system had it's industrial facilities bought out by Roden Shipyards.


No, they turned away Federal forces. Go find the articles, although I had thought this recent enough to be public knowlege. The article I linked was merely a final reiteration of the state of affairs to FDU pilots who were attacking Ishukone ships in Intaki after being displeased by the refusal of the Assembly to allow Federal troops back in. That's why Mordu is providing security.

And, according to the Federal Charter that the Intaki utilized, the Federation doesn't get to have a say on whether Intaki wants the Caldari there. As for Federal corporations, I imagine that if you knew very much about cluster affairs, you would be aware of the fact that Quafe, a Gallente company, is registered as a Caldari-accepted Megacorporation.


I found the article you refer to and I have to say say that it's well in their right to turn down Federal military support. They were liberated and asked for the Federation forces to leave, standard procedure really. Forgive me, but I'm not really sure what your point is regarding that. Turning down Federal military presence doesn't mean they are seceding.

Regarding the charter, we do have a say (that's kind of why we are a Federation) but it's ultimately up to the Intaki. However, what makes a Federation work is cooperation. If the Senate votes to force Ishukone presence out, for whatever reason, then the Intaki would have to comply, that's part of being a member of our great nation.

Also, there is a massive difference between Quafe, a soft drink, pharmaceutical, and shipping company, and Ishukone, a political juggernaut and producer of technologically sophisticated weaponry.


Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#355 - 2013-11-21 01:22:16 UTC
You mean the same Federal forces that would have been turned away before the CEWPA came into force?

Funnily they did that because it's part of their agreement as part of the Federation, they always have done. Your attempt to spin this as another poor "the Intaki want to leave" argument shows the confirmation bias of your viewpoint. Unless you stop debating with wishful thinking and start with fact, you are of zero value to this discussion.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Erys Charantes
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2013-11-21 01:53:11 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Agiri Falken wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
She certainly doesn't help dispel racial stereotypes regarding Civire.

I'm sure she'll get a brief bit of fame on the chat show circuit that more than covers the medical expenses.


Do you know what? I'm going to fund a hand-to-hand training package for her. The last thing this poor woman needs is snide comments from the peanut gallery.

Uhm... Suuolo... I know you've never tried hitting my dropsuit, but it really is like smashing your hand into a wall. With the wall, you mangle your fist, with the dropsuit, you **** the goon wearing it off... Then mangle your fist. ...But I'd definately raise a glass to that woman's fighting spirit, if nothing else.

And yes... I know what hitting one is like because I got too curious (read: plastered and goaded) and tried once... Had my hand in a cast for a week while nannites fixed the fractures. Lesson learned. Don't punch an exosuit... It only LOOKS like relatively normal body armor.

Laugh it up kids. I get a good giggle out of the memory, regardless.


Should have used your head, chaika. You'd have stood a decent chance of cracking it.

Now that I know where the next self inflicted concussion will come from... Pieter, I blame you in advance and will be sure to get pictures.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#357 - 2013-11-21 02:51:35 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Regarding the charter, we do have a say (that's kind of why we are a Federation) but it's ultimately up to the Intaki. However, what makes a Federation work is cooperation. If the Senate votes to force Ishukone presence out, for whatever reason, then the Intaki would have to comply, that's part of being a member of our great nation.


Ah yes. This part of the Federation we remember well. The "We don't care how well it's working for you and your people, if for whatever reason we decide to force an end to the agreement then you have to comply" part.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#358 - 2013-11-21 02:58:26 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
You mean the same Federal forces that would have been turned away before the CEWPA came into force?

Funnily they did that because it's part of their agreement as part of the Federation, they always have done. Your attempt to spin this as another poor "the Intaki want to leave" argument shows the confirmation bias of your viewpoint. Unless you stop debating with wishful thinking and start with fact, you are of zero value to this discussion.


Hmm, when I first pointed out what was going on in Intaki, I said this:

Vikarion wrote:
Now, note that I did not say that the Intaki have seceded from the Federation. Politically, the Intaki are full members of the Federation and appear to wish to be so. Economically, however, Ishukone has been and remains the primary economic entity of note in the system, having been given developmental rights over it by both the Intaki Assembly and Caldari law.


You can go read it. In fact, you could have read it before opening your mouth. Unfortunately, you either didn't, or you did, and then decided to straw-man anyway. Don't bother to say that I changed it. The time-stamps will show that to be incorrect.

Unless you stop debating with wishful thinking and start with fact, you are of zero value to this discussion.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#359 - 2013-11-21 03:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Vikarion wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
You mean the same Federal forces that would have been turned away before the CEWPA came into force?

Funnily they did that because it's part of their agreement as part of the Federation, they always have done. Your attempt to spin this as another poor "the Intaki want to leave" argument shows the confirmation bias of your viewpoint. Unless you stop debating with wishful thinking and start with fact, you are of zero value to this discussion.


Hmm, when I first pointed out what was going on in Intaki, I said this:

Vikarion wrote:
Now, note that I did not say that the Intaki have seceded from the Federation. Politically, the Intaki are full members of the Federation and appear to wish to be so. Economically, however, Ishukone has been and remains the primary economic entity of note in the system, having been given developmental rights over it by both the Intaki Assembly and Caldari law.


You can go read it. In fact, you could have read it before opening your mouth. Unfortunately, you either didn't, or you did, and then decided to straw-man anyway. Don't bother to say that I changed it. The time-stamps will show that to be incorrect.

Unless you stop debating with wishful thinking and start with fact, you are of zero value to this discussion.


Actually I don't need to, you're claiming that because they're in a business deal with Ishukone they "wish to be economic entity" and not their own commercial interest, they're dictating their commercial interest to an entity outside of the Federation, all because there's a few ships in their space.

So do you have evidence to confirm your thesis? Because a few ships reads to me as a trade agreement, not that any rights are granted or still exist.

You're the one who brought the word secession into this, but nice try on the turnabout, even if you did end up using a strawman while trying to criticise someone for using a strawman.



However you're still exceptionally wrong on the whole reason for the Federal Navy being turned away at the gates, no matter how you tried to spin it, or distract from the topic at hand.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#360 - 2013-11-21 03:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Regarding the charter, we do have a say (that's kind of why we are a Federation) but it's ultimately up to the Intaki. However, what makes a Federation work is cooperation. If the Senate votes to force Ishukone presence out, for whatever reason, then the Intaki would have to comply, that's part of being a member of our great nation.


Ah yes. This part of the Federation we remember well. The "We don't care how well it's working for you and your people, if for whatever reason we decide to force an end to the agreement then you have to comply" part.


Actually they don't, the Assembly was actually clever enough to ensure they have "opt out" agreements to just about every wide sweeping Federal law that comes into enforcement.

So you don't remember it at all (not least that you weren't even around, Tuulinen) because their ancestors were smarter and looked after their own interests and have negotiated this further at several key points in their history. Certain aspects may have backfired regarding security in Placid but that's a larger issue which can't be attributed to the terms the Assembly put out.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.