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Intaki and the Federation
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Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#281 - 2013-11-16 09:03:03 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
So you have nothing for which you'd give everything?

"Everything" is a rather nebulous term. And while I can surmise your meaning, I find it odd that you would ask me if I were willing to sacrifice "everything" when I sincerely doubt you would be yourself (should I choose to pursue the concept to the extreme).

Quote:
Perhaps there simply is no analog in Federation experience for the way the Caldari feel about Home.

Perhaps not, though the optimist in me likes to believe that the difference in thought lies not between nations but between individuals. That, at least, provides hope for some small reconciliations.

I love Intaki, Mr. Tuulinen. All of it. Intaki V most of all. Call me arrogant or condescending if you wish, but I think I carry a love and appreciation of the home-world of my people stronger than almost any Caldari possibly could for Caldari Prime. And that is because I actually know my world. I was born there, raised there. I grew up surrounded by both its fascinating wonders and its more trivial and mundane facets. I could list off the numerous cultures present within the communities spread throughout my home, their quirks and oddities as well as their important contributions to our world and our people as a whole. I am no stranger to the beauty of its mountains, its seas, and its jungles.

But there is one thing I love more than Intaki, my home, and that is the Intaki, my people. And if faced with the choice of losing Intaki forever to outsiders or engaging in an act that would bring ruin and devastation to not only my people but countless others as well, I would let Intaki fall ten thousand times over. Because for my people to do what the Caldari almost did would be to strike a blow not only to our population but to our spirit that would be far more devastating than simply losing a planet.

To lose Intaki would be terrible, no doubt, and would leave a scar on our people that would take a very long time to heal. I imagine you understand this particularly well. But to lose ourselves, body and spirit, to hatred and vengeance would be a fate far worse. It is my belief that the while the former situation would leave my people (or any people for that matter) hurt and homeless, the latter would leave them dead. And while the Intaki people might physically survive, their numbers would be greatly diminished and the culture, the heritage, which had guided them and their ancestors for ages would be buried alive under the weight of the sins they had committed and the corpses of the innocent they had sacrificed.

I realize that was kind of a lot, and I'd honestly not intended to type that much, so I shall leave you with this: no, I would not give "everything" for my home-world. I would fight, certainly, and many of my kin would give their lives to protect their home and their families. But there is a line that I would not cross. I like to believe that most of my people would not either. And while I would mourn the loss of our world, I like to think that I would look forward to future prosperity rather than dwell hopelessly in past glories.

Quote:
What made that dirt worth it otherwise? Preservation of hubris for the Federation? A smug sense of satisfaction in having that dirt?

Your self-righteous anger blinds you to the rather obvious answer: that dirt was the foundation upon which normal, innocent people had established livelihoods and families.

Enjoy the reclamation of your "home". A home you never truly knew. But don't you ever forget that you accomplished this by doing to those people the exact same thing the Federation did to you. And it is only thanks to the integrity of one outstanding individual that you did not, inf act, do even worse.

That said, I hope the Caldari make the most of what they have taken. I really do. To do otherwise would be disrespectful to the lives, both Caldari and Gallente, destroyed for it.


I think you mistake questions delivered in earnest with self-righteous anger. Understandable, since you don't know me beyond what is said here,. However, the answer provided is what was expected, and an old saw... For which I provide another series of old saws...

What of the lives that existed there when the Federation blockaded and bombarded the planet? Were those foundations to be cast aside and forgotten to be buried in favor of the foundations you speak of? By what right? Conquest? If so, then we invoked the same right. Federation law? We're not the Federation, therefore it's laws are moot in this case. Vengeance for lives lost? How do we even start to reckon that one?

Next "But Saya! Nouvelle Rauvenor!" Yes, I haven't forgotten... And you might find it surprising that a great many of us, myself included, find that to have been a barbarous, heinous, cowardly act, committed by an organization so extreme that the nation they claimed to champion shunned and hunted them right along with the Federation. Dragonaurs... Should we all be judged by the actions of a bare few? If such is the case, then justification is easy to find in turn for the States actions many years later... Yes, yes, I know, time has passed... But I hear the same old line of thought so often that it doesn't seem like it.

As for never having known Home... No, I hadn't before recently. How can your love for your homeworld, which you knew all your life, be compared to the love many of us have for a world that we can see, read about, learn about, and yet never touch without begging an indulgence? No, really... How can we compare intangible emotions in such a way that it becomes more than proclamation without consideration? The short answer is, we can't. Neither side will give the other credit for what they feel, which leaves us an am impasse.

So you don't feel that you'd give your life for your homeworld... Fine. It doesn't matter. We feel differently.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2013-11-16 09:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
Saya Ishikari wrote:
What of the lives that existed there when the Federation blockaded and bombarded the planet? Were those foundations to be cast aside and forgotten to be buried in favor of the foundations you speak of? By what right? Conquest? If so, then we invoked the same right. Federation law? We're not the Federation, therefore it's laws are moot in this case. Vengeance for lives lost? How do we even start to reckon that one?

The Federation's violent suppression of Caldari Prime was wrong, just as the Caldari's violent invasion of it was wrong. In both cases, the victor claimed control of the planet and thereby assumed responsibility for all the people living there and for all the people who died in the claiming. The state of Caldari Prime after the war was unfortunate. A policy of segregation was enforced where a policy of unification should have been. I look forward to seeing if the Caldari are able to handle the situation better.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
When you take that first long step out into space and come to know other worlds, if you don't keep your other foot planted firmly in that dirt that you hold so cheap then you lose something important and unique and special.

This, I think, is the crux of our disagreement. You believe a people's heritage is their origin, that it is a physical thing that anchors them, that by moving on from where they began they lose a critical part of themselves.

I believe a people's heritage is the people themselves. That a people are defined not only by set and implacable monuments of the past, but by the whole sum of their collective history. Certainly, it is important for a people to have a place they call "home". But home can change. So long as a people remain true to themselves and the spirit of their culture and beliefs, they will live on undiminished and regardless of (often difficult) transitory periods where they may lose one home and gain another.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Despite Intaki's regular changes of 'ownership' I imagine very little of the War actually touches her surface. The only Intaki who will flee are ones who will spend the duration of the occupation singing patriot songs in certain themed bars, elsewhere in the Federation. It's certain that the State will not ethnically cleanse whole neighbourhoods and move Caldari colonists in, only to use those same colonists to bar your return.

I feel I should take a moment to make sure it is clear that when speaking of Caldari Prime level events occurring, I am speaking simply in hypotheticals. I am well aware of the toothless nature of the "conquering" that occurs even as we speak.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#283 - 2013-11-16 15:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Quote:
And if I had to paint every star red with the blood of every man, woman and child with even one drop of Caldari blood in their veins , I'd do it, without hestitation.


Evilness inside you is quite incredible. Without hesitation you could kill men woman and children its appauling Ixiris. It wouldnt be the first time the Federation have tried to commit genocide on the Caldari people.

I could imagine you in a Federation death squad on Caldari Prime and with the Federation citizens in militias killing the Caldari. You would probably have some primitive weapon, machette. Chopping the Caldari people down. Bragging how you chopped some poor childs head of with one blow. Chopping them at the knees and at thier arms. After while you will probably get bored of this, youll go into neigbourhood and youll tell some Caldari child that he has to go next door and kill his neighbours, and if he hesitates for one second that would be enough for you to chop him down with couple of blows. The woman, will just kill them or will you #### them first and then kill them Ixirus.

This is what you are talking about Ixiris. This is genocide you would do this ?
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2013-11-16 18:23:49 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Quote:
And if I had to paint every star red with the blood of every man, woman and child with even one drop of Caldari blood in their veins , I'd do it, without hestitation.


Evilness inside you is quite incredible. Without hesitation you could kill men woman and children its appauling Ixiris. It wouldnt be the first time the Federation have tried to commit genocide on the Caldari people.

I could imagine you in a Federation death squad on Caldari Prime and with the Federation citizens in militias killing the Caldari. You would probably have some primitive weapon, machette. Chopping the Caldari people down. Bragging how you chopped some poor childs head of with one blow. Chopping them at the knees and at thier arms. After while you will probably get bored of this, youll go into neigbourhood and youll tell some Caldari child that he has to go next door and kill his neighbours, and if he hesitates for one second that would be enough for you to chop him down with couple of blows. The woman, will just kill them or will you #### them first and then kill them Ixirus.

This is what you are talking about Ixiris. This is genocide you would do this ?


The hypocrisy here is outstanding.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#285 - 2013-11-16 21:12:29 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

The hypocrisy here is outstanding.

Vacate the thread immediately to remove hypocrisy.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2013-11-16 21:27:14 UTC
Ah, the classic "quote part of someone's statement out of context and pretend it's the entirety of what they said" tactic, Horn? You must really be desperate.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#287 - 2013-11-16 23:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Suppose I should be glad that you're at least equitable in spreading blame, Federation man. Alright, I can see your point, even if I disagree. I'll leave it at that.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#288 - 2013-11-17 00:19:16 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
When you take that first long step out into space and come to know other worlds, if you don't keep your other foot planted firmly in that dirt that you hold so cheap then you lose something important and unique and special.

This, I think, is the crux of our disagreement. You believe a people's heritage is their origin, that it is a physical thing that anchors them, that by moving on from where they began they lose a critical part of themselves.

I believe a people's heritage is the people themselves. That a people are defined not only by set and implacable monuments of the past, but by the whole sum of their collective history. Certainly, it is important for a people to have a place they call "home". But home can change. So long as a people remain true to themselves and the spirit of their culture and beliefs, they will live on undiminished and regardless of (often difficult) transitory periods where they may lose one home and gain another.


I agree, this is the crux of our disagreement. Speaking as someone from a race that lost their homeworld and gained hundreds of potential replacements, it doesn't matter. Here's Cold Wind on the subject...

"Many are the men and many their stories. Those who have the courage among you, travel far away from the Kaalakiota Peaks, travel to other men and other Winds. Haakkin k'len! Return when you have walked all the Lands, and when you have heard all the Tales."

Even when you've seen everything the cluster has to offer, it ain't worth a thing if you can't bring the tales Home. And for the Caldari, Home has always been found in the same place - that icy world where our Ancestors somehow survived to build our society and where the Winds can still be found, if you know how to look for them.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#289 - 2013-11-17 01:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Quote:
Ah, the classic "quote part of someone's statement out of context and pretend it's the entirety of what they said" tactic, Horn? You must really be desperate.


All the ingredients are there on Caldari Prime for something terrible to happen. Our past our recent history, mistrust and dislike of the Gallente and the Caldari, it just seems to be indoctrinated. Just being a Gallente living in a Gallente neighbourhood you will grow up with the view that Caldari are bad , devious. Vice versa. Even though its our home planet you have the Gallente sector and the Caldari sectors. You wouldnt think it would take much to light that fuse that one of these neighbourhoods would try to ethnically cleanse the other.

Maybe your comments were taken out of context , lets be clear what we are talking about when you talk about killing anyone with a drop of Caldari blood in them men woman and children. Genocide.

By the sounds of it Ixiris you feel about your home planet like we feel about ours. Not genocide never that. With the recent events between our cultures, your words are very inflammatory and ill advised.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2013-11-17 01:45:47 UTC
Provists talk about genocide all the time. It's all some of you think about.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Nicole Graves
Anshar Incorporated
#291 - 2013-11-17 01:48:23 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Provists talk about genocide all the time. It's all some of you think about.



Coming from you that is rather rich.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#292 - 2013-11-18 16:03:34 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
"Many are the men and many their stories. Those who have the courage among you, travel far away from the Kaalakiota Peaks, travel to other men and other Winds. Haakkin k'len! Return when you have walked all the Lands, and when you have heard all the Tales."


The very words I live by.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#293 - 2013-11-18 17:34:38 UTC
TomHorn wrote:


By the sounds of it Ixiris you feel about your home planet like we feel about ours. Not genocide never that. With the recent events between our cultures, your words are very inflammatory and ill advised.


Curious as to how you're never this critical when it comes to Diana Kim's endless babbling rants of the same nature.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#294 - 2013-11-18 20:32:22 UTC
I have told you how i feel about genocide of any kind. Im against it Marellus.

Ixiris is a Federation fanatic and supporter of the nationalist goverment of Roden. He took part in the offensive operation Highlander, to retake back Caldari homeworld into the Federation. He would openly support and take part in the genocide of anyone with a drop of Caldari blood in them. Let me ask you how do feel about your Federation citizen Ixiris.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2013-11-18 20:42:43 UTC
Provist and nationalist Caldari shout their genocidal desires all the time, I would be more suspicious if they didn't to be honest. Yet when a Gallentean sarcastically parodies the forementioned idiocy it's a galactic crisis.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#296 - 2013-11-18 20:47:58 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Provist and nationalist Caldari shout their genocidal desires all the time, I would be more suspicious if they didn't to be honest. Yet when a Gallentean sarcastically parodies the forementioned idiocy it's a galactic crisis.


Watch yourself, Fred. I'm a Nationalist and I don't think I shout about genocide all the time.

The admission that I would fire on Gallentia if it was the only way to win Home was a difficult one to make.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#297 - 2013-11-18 20:48:46 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
"Many are the men and many their stories. Those who have the courage among you, travel far away from the Kaalakiota Peaks, travel to other men and other Winds. Haakkin k'len! Return when you have walked all the Lands, and when you have heard all the Tales."


The very words I live by.


At least the first part, Verin. Don't forget about the second - I miss you when you're not available.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2013-11-18 20:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Provist and nationalist Caldari shout their genocidal desires all the time, I would be more suspicious if they didn't to be honest. Yet when a Gallentean sarcastically parodies the forementioned idiocy it's a galactic crisis.


Watch yourself, Fred. I'm a Nationalist and I don't think I shout about genocide all the time.

The admission that I would fire on Gallentia if it was the only way to win Home was a difficult one to make.


I'm sorry, but doing it once in a while is still too much for my taste. It's nothing personal though.

I have to say, I would not destroy Caldari Prime if it meant saving Gallentia or to avenge it. Acts of retribution have never ended well for my country. Honestly speaking, I find the fact that you had to seriously consider your stance on that issue somewhat alarming. Surely while considering it you thought of the billions of people who inhabit that planet, the vast majority of which have no qualms with your nation or why we are even fighting. You'd exterminate doctors working on cures for diseases that have plagued all of humanity for generations. You'd slaughter artist and musicians, who have dedicated their life to improving society in ways we often take for granted. Hell, you'd even murder your own countrymen, diplomats and business people who were unfortunate enough to be on the planet when your doomsday fleet began in it's attack.

All of that death and destruction, over the sovereignty of a planet? A planet that is only relevant culturally?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#299 - 2013-11-18 22:41:25 UTC
You have given Tuulinen-haan a rather despicable decision, Mr. Fredfred. It closely mirrors the sad state of the war. On one hand, he can say that he would eradicate Gallentia in order to preserve Caldari - not because he actually would, but because he has been challenged publicly by an opponent. Alternatively, he could acquiesce, in which case it appears as if he didn't truly wish to defend Caldari as deeply as he did previously, and his the defenders of Home appear weaker.

There are no palatable actions to take here, but I think I know which choice Tuulinen-haan will make. Honour pulls us in strange ways. I hope that a better solution for us all can be found than this brinksmanship.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2013-11-18 22:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Scherezad wrote:
You have given Tuulinen-haan a rather despicable decision, Mr. Fredfred. It closely mirrors the sad state of the war. On one hand, he can say that he would eradicate Gallentia in order to preserve Caldari - not because he actually would, but because he has been challenged publicly by an opponent. Alternatively, he could acquiesce, in which case it appears as if he didn't truly wish to defend Caldari as deeply as he did previously, and his the defenders of Home appear weaker.

There are no palatable actions to take here, but I think I know which choice Tuulinen-haan will make. Honour pulls us in strange ways. I hope that a better solution for us all can be found than this brinksmanship.


I feel that there are much better ways of expressing how far you are willing to go to protect what you care for if that's the case. The willingness to usher in an age of extreme genocide and planetary annihilation is certainly not the most noble route to take.

Granted, I understand the point he's trying to make. I'm mostly upset with how Ixiris is making the exact same point yet how he is being attacked en masse for it.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!