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[Rubicon] Entry-level combat exploration for Low Sec

First post
Author
Chigurh Friendo
Fight The Blob
Kingless.
#21 - 2013-11-01 04:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Chigurh Friendo
CCP Fozzie wrote:
many players both new and old will be interested in the loot gained from the 1/10 and 2/10 level signatures.


Wait! Wait! Wait! --- You're shitting me right?!

Aren't you afraid that some "small group of experienced players" is going to "farm the content"?
(See reference for full quote)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2424637#post2424637

I sincerely hope that the reintroduction of the 1/10s and 2/10s doesn't coincide with the reintroduction of static plexes... not just because such sites lead to stop-watch farming, AFK farming, and bots abuses... but also because CCP would otherwise be directly and entirely re-negging on their formerly stated agenda.

That is, we would have CCP's Remarkable Methodology for Developing New Expansion Content to Keep the Game Fresh(TM) defined as:
Step 1: Remove existing content that was supported by a vibrant emergent PvP battleground community.
Step 2: Fail to address concerns of community members in any capacity. (you know, the people who actually play the ******* game?)
Step 3: Provide no substitute in its place.
Step 4: Reintroduce formerly removed content and rebrand said content as a new 'Feature' for an upcoming expansion.
Step 5: Bask in the warm glowing praise of the fickle amnesiac playerbase.

It didn't take a crystal ball to see that removing 2/10s from lowsec (as an afterthought!!!) and providing no meaningful substitute was a really horrible idea...

The best part about these changes is how they will be re-sold to the community after their re-introduction:

"We decided that having lowsec PvE content that would not only provide income to lowsec residents but also that would inspire PvP would be a good thing for the health of the game. Further, since Rubicon's launch we've been following the metrics and can see that based on this myopically short-term adoption curve (See Figure A: Short-sighted user uptake perspective) that our players are just eating this **** up. This adoption curve is undisputed proof that our players are just loving it. Bravo us."

...followed by post-Rubicon-launch CCP internal discussions along the lines of:

CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Boy, would you just LOOK at these metrics!?"
CCP Watercooler: "Yeah, get a load of all these people fighting over and completing lowsec 2/10s!"
CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Yeah, I never would have guessed that anyone would live in, let alone give two craps about lowsec! We sure as hell don't!"
CCP Watercooler: "Tell me about it... Say, let's go do something worthwhile like watching the immersive gate-jump animation one more time!"
CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Sounds good to me!"
[[Swwwwwoooossh!!!]]
CCP Watercooler: "Ooooooh!"
CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Ahhhhh!"
CCP Watercooler: "This sure beats a loading bar!"
CCP Metrics'R'US: "You're telling me! Also, given the extent of adoption, we can see that our players are really loving this new gate jumping animation!"

Taking a step back, though. We can see that this change really is revolutionary. It's a veritable crossing of the Rubicon... embarking on bold new territory. One... small step... for man. One giant leap... for mankind. A real game-changer.

---

Sarcasm aside, I believe that the (re)introduction of such PvE content in lowsec will be of benefit to the health of the game, even if it has taken its removal and reintroduction to get there. Better late than never I guess. On the other hand, I think I'll reserve my :slow clap: for more deserving 'Features' when they come.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#22 - 2013-11-01 04:46:03 UTC
My goal was to get 1/10 through 7/10's in low sec Big smile

I'm still very happy with this.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#23 - 2013-11-01 04:58:25 UTC
So now there are at least 50% more loot being generated that stems from 1/10's and 2/10's, since you have stated that these sites will spawn at least at 50% of the rate of high sec.

That means all the prices drop for stuff coming from those sites, lowering high sec income yet again.

If you hate high sec that much, just dump it one fell swoop, instead of a death of a thousand cuts.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#24 - 2013-11-01 05:01:35 UTC
That loot already existed in the game before and was nerfed out. The prices were low and went up. Now they will drop back down somewhere between where they were when there were static sites and where they are currently when the only place this expensive loot comes from is high sec exploration sites that the newest of new players can complete.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#25 - 2013-11-01 05:53:52 UTC
Dinsdale, sorry but get back to null sec cartels conspiracy and keep your tinfoil hands off my lowsec.

And Fozzie, we still remember 2/10 statics removal because of :metrics: and now you just put them back only as non-statics? I wonder what :metrics: show now as farming paradise that you plan to remove and if low level sites are just carrot before stick will hit.

Invalid signature format

Kujun Nashja
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-11-01 09:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kujun Nashja
Chigurh Friendo wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
many players both new and old will be interested in the loot gained from the 1/10 and 2/10 level signatures.


Wait! Wait! Wait! --- You're shitting me right?!

Aren't you afraid that some "small group of experienced players" are going to "farm the content"?
(See reference for full quote)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2424637#post2424637

I sincerely hope that the reintroduction of the 1/10s and 2/10s doesn't coincide with the reintroduction of static plexes... not just because such sites lead to stop-watch farming, AFK farming, and bots abuses... but also because CCP would otherwise be directly and entirely re-negging on their formerly stated agenda.

That is, we would have CCP's Remarkable Methodology for Developing New Expansion Content to Keep the Game Fresh(TM) defined as:
Step 1: Remove existing content that was supported by a vibrant emergent PvP battleground community.
Step 2: Fail to address concerns of community members in any capacity. (you know, the people who actually play the ******* game?)
Step 3: Provide no substitute in its place.
Step 4: Reintroduce formerly removed content and rebrand said content as a new 'Feature' for an upcoming expansion.
Step 5: Bask in warm glowing praise of the fickle amnesiac playerbase.

It didn't take a crystal ball to see that removing 2/10s from lowsec (as an afterthought!!!) and providing no meaningful substitute was a really horrible idea...

The best part about these changes is how they will be re-sold to the community after their re-introduction:

"We decided that having lowsec PvE content that would not only provide income to lowsec residents but also that would inspire PvP would be a good thing for the health of the game. Further, since Rubicon's launch we've been following the metrics and can see that based on this myopically short-term adoption curve (See Figure A: Short-sighted user uptake perspective) that our players are just eating this **** up. This adoption curve is undisputed proof that our players are just loving it. Bravo us."

...followed by post-Rubicon-launch CCP internal discussions along the lines of:

CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Boy, would you just LOOK at these metrics!?"
CCP Watercooler: "Yeah, get a load of all these people fighting over and completing lowsec 2/10s!"
CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Yeah, I never would have guessed that anyone would live in, let alone give two craps about lowsec! We sure as hell don't!"
CCP Watercooler: "Tell me about it... Say, let's go do something worthwhile like watching the immersive gate-jump animation one more time!"
CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Sounds good to me!"
[[Swwwwwoooossh!!!]]
CCP Watercooler: "Ooooooh!"
CCP Metrics'R'Us: "Ahhhhh!"
CCP Watercooler: "This sure beats a loading bar!"
CCP Metrics'R'US: "You're telling me! Also, given the extent of adoption, we can see that our players are really loving this new gate jumping animation!"

Taking a step back, though. We can see that this change really is revolutionary. It's a veritable crossing of the Rubicon... embarking on bold new territory. One. small step... for man. One giant leap... for mankind. A real game-changer.

---

Sarcasm aside, I believe that the (re)introduction of such PvE content in lowsec will be of benefit to the health of the game, even if it has taken its removal and reintroduction to get there. Better late than never I guess. On the other hand, I think I'll reserve my :slow clap: for more deserving 'Features' when they come.



^ 100% this ^

The removal of the static lowsec plexes WITHOUT any compensation was one of the greatest mistakes you guys did within the last years. It basically destroyed a lively smallscale / beginner PvP and Pirate community from one day to the other.

The reintroduction of this, or at least a somewhat similar content was overdue. But don´t advertise this as new and shiney content and expect any praise for it.

Maybe the next time it might be a good idea to get your heads out of those datasheets and statistics and actually get into a ship once in a while to have a look at the corresponding topic from an inside perspective. Or at least listen to the community before you introduce changes because of 'metrics'.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2013-11-01 09:04:55 UTC
Look at Fozzie posting this news in the evening when I'm not paying attention! Thanks to a few people at fanfest making compelling arguments (and appealing to my low-sec pride), we hope you'll like these changes.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-11-01 11:07:24 UTC
can we get an implant scanner that lowers security status on use finally? If ur giving content for pirates that's the #1 item we want.

You can scan implants on a pod with them. They give you a suspect flag for using them. They tell you the pod's implants. You guys say you like to support emergent gameplay, can you support 10 year old gameplay of pod ransoming already?

You already have a way of getting a pod's implants onto a killmail, why not make this then?

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Kip Troger
System lords Collective
#29 - 2013-11-01 12:16:05 UTC
This is good news adding additional sites that are easier into low sec. I support it fully.

However, there are quite a few "easier sites" that already exist in low sec that are not worth doing. The Dirty Site comes to mind...

I think drone sites need to be completely relooked, as I have been exploring for years and the only people that run the 5/10 drone site are new explorers that have never run them before.

It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the anomalies are much more dangerous to run for very little reward compared to the many DED sites that have useful module drops, and overseer effects - and with all the gates are basically care free (of other players) to run...

I haven't caught an explorer in a site for months, because of all the gates - and if you say "just take an interceptor" - the rats agro almost instantly and pop anything smaller than a cruiser.

TLDR:
I like the change proposed
Fix drone sites while you are in low sec (add a useful module to the drop tables)
I wish low sec DED sites were a little more dangerous for explorers (like anomalies)
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#30 - 2013-11-01 12:48:41 UTC
Chigurh Friendo wrote:

Sarcasm aside, I believe that the (re)introduction of such PvE content in lowsec will be of benefit to the health of the game, even if it has taken its removal and reintroduction to get there. Better late than never I guess. On the other hand, I think I'll reserve my :slow clap: for more deserving 'Features' when they come.


The esteemed gentleman of dubious virtue has said it all. I have nothing to add, except this: We had like 25 pages of posts on why removing them is a bad idea. CCP did not listen. Why?
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#31 - 2013-11-01 13:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Kyle
Most of our discussion on the 1/10 and 2/10 thread was about the static complexes. These are spawning 1/10 and 2/10 which we never had in the first place due to the nature of high -> low -> null structure the exploration system has.

CCP did listen and add something that we never had before.

CCP made it very clear we are not getting the static complexes back. They also made it clear that farming those static complexes with their predictable timers and warptoable beacons was the issue they were resolving with their removal. That places the problems created by the static complexes in a different category to the ones created by probable sites. They already removed T3 access to the lower level sites in high sec which according to some destroyed high sec exploration and no one has ever scanned down a site since.

With the exploration changes in Odyssey, these sites are more than approachable for newer players to scan down and go pewpew in. The ship restrictions will limit the vets a tiny bit. It isn't the 1/10 and 2/10 statics and I don't think anyone is approaching it as if it is. But it is a step to filling the void lost by those sites being removed.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#32 - 2013-11-01 13:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1/10 and 2/10 anomaly sites are not worth it even in hisec (mining belts in a Venture is more profitable), when there's nobody trying to kill you (most of the time), so in my eyes, that's just more farmable content for people who already are lowseccers.

Hiseccers won't be chasing that stuff to lowsec for obvious risk/reward reasons, and meanwhile they get a fliped finger with the promise that the new Ghost Sites will not spawn anything worth sh*t in hisec.

But hey, this is CCP. Delivering content where the players actually dwell, it's against The Book.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#33 - 2013-11-01 13:39:23 UTC
To answer the question about the removal of the static sites, we have no plans to reintroduce any static sites with loot worth farming. Using the exploration system spreads out the sites and prevents easy farming.

The issue from before wasn't the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes being in lowsec, it was them being static. That's why we're bringing the non-static spawns to lowsec now without compunction.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Sven Viko VIkolander
Allemannsrett
#34 - 2013-11-01 13:44:50 UTC
I do love this change but I also agree with some of the other posters that drone sites really need re-working--though this is probably a bigger iteration than simply moving spawn rates. Many of the drone sites, for one, are also new-player friendly, and it would be nice if they were at least somewhat worth doing.

Also, a very nice effect of this change is that with more people doing these sites, many faction/deadspace mods as well as some BPCs (Curor e.g.) are going to go down in price, even if only a bit over time, which is nice.
Randy Wray
That's Really Witty M8
Shattered Foundations
#35 - 2013-11-01 14:54:00 UTC
Now just make the "separate highsec with lowsec space(and add more lowsec)" happen and lowsec will be the best place in the game :D

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#36 - 2013-11-01 15:22:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To answer the question about the removal of the static sites, we have no plans to reintroduce any static sites with loot worth farming. Using the exploration system spreads out the sites and prevents easy farming.

The issue from before wasn't the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes being in lowsec, it was them being static. That's why we're bringing the non-static spawns to lowsec now without compunction.


Can you at least add them to the anom system for lowsec so they provide pvp content as well as pve?
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#37 - 2013-11-01 15:44:59 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To answer the question about the removal of the static sites, we have no plans to reintroduce any static sites with loot worth farming. Using the exploration system spreads out the sites and prevents easy farming.

The issue from before wasn't the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes being in lowsec, it was them being static. That's why we're bringing the non-static spawns to lowsec now without compunction.


Can you at least add them to the anom system for lowsec so they provide pvp content as well as pve?


That is an excellent idea.
Nik Domar
Acerbus Vindictum
HYDRA RELOADED
#38 - 2013-11-01 16:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nik Domar
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To answer the question about the removal of the static sites, we have no plans to reintroduce any static sites with loot worth farming. Using the exploration system spreads out the sites and prevents easy farming.

The issue from before wasn't the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes being in lowsec, it was them being static. That's why we're bringing the non-static spawns to lowsec now without compunction.


Can you at least add them to the anom system for lowsec so they provide pvp content as well as pve?


I also support this idea. Removing unecessary need of probe launcher gives more chance for people to actually fight for these sites, especially the low level DEDs.

However I consider 3/10:s and above sites should be only found by probes, including equal level unrated sites. This would limit these lower level sites strictly to frigate/destroyer level PvE and possibly PvP
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#39 - 2013-11-01 16:59:01 UTC
Also the key that most of the sites require should either be removed entirely, or permanently unlock the gate once used.
Craig Mack
League of Distinguished Cyno Killing Gentlemen
#40 - 2013-11-01 17:02:03 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To answer the question about the removal of the static sites, we have no plans to reintroduce any static sites with loot worth farming. Using the exploration system spreads out the sites and prevents easy farming.

The issue from before wasn't the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes being in lowsec, it was them being static. That's why we're bringing the non-static spawns to lowsec now without compunction.


Can you at least add them to the anom system for lowsec so they provide pvp content as well as pve?


Yes. Please give me a reason to leave the FW areas of lowsec CCP.