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Dear NAGA, I am disturbed by your lack of cruise missiles

Author
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#21 - 2011-11-03 01:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
(IIRC the drake is the most commonly flown combat ship in the game, being used more than than the other top 10 combined)

Reality Disagree's with you.


Monitoring the list the Drake has never had more then twice as much as the next best ship the Hurricane. The list is low because EVEkill Server Issues means a new 30 Day list started October 31. The day before the Drake had 175000 while the Cane a Small Gang Ship had 125000 and the Abbadon in the area of 80000.

Drake is good but not 10X as good.

Admittedly I was wrong, went and checked, HOWEVER, the numbers you linked are wrong as well, as I was referring to pve as well as pvp. Granted, since CCP decided to stop the qen, this info is slightly out of date, but, as of q2 2010, the list of ships in space on average was as follows(excluding shuttles, pods and industrial ships):
Drake 16.4k
Kestrel 11.4k
Rifter 11k
Raven 7.6k
Cane 7.3k
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-11-03 01:18:42 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Dear Naga, I am disturbed by your lack of coherent use.


It's like split weapon system for extra fail.Cool


motherofgod.jpg
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-03 05:59:54 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
(IIRC the drake is the most commonly flown combat ship in the game, being used more than than the other top 10 combined)

Reality Disagree's with you.


Monitoring the list the Drake has never had more then twice as much as the next best ship the Hurricane. The list is low because EVEkill Server Issues means a new 30 Day list started October 31. The day before the Drake had 175000 while the Cane a Small Gang Ship had 125000 and the Abbadon in the area of 80000.

Drake is good but not 10X as good.

Admittedly I was wrong, went and checked, HOWEVER, the numbers you linked are wrong as well, as I was referring to pve as well as pvp. Granted, since CCP decided to stop the qen, this info is slightly out of date, but, as of q2 2010, the list of ships in space on average was as follows(excluding shuttles, pods and industrial ships):
Drake 16.4k
Kestrel 11.4k
Rifter 11k
Raven 7.6k
Cane 7.3k


Not quite sure what this has to do with cruise missiles for the Naga?

Also, I wouldn't put a great deal if faith in those numbers as they are 'ships in space' which is not quite the same as actively being flown in PvE/PvP.

I would suspect the Kestrel only shows up there as it's the most prevalent cyno ship.

Just out of curiosity, with 60km on Torps, why would you want cruise missiles anyway? They are terrible outside of PvE and I doubt you will see many people use the new ships for PvE (but no doubt some will try).

These will be pure DPS boats, i.e. they will be primarily for suicide ganking and cheap, throw away fleets in null.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#24 - 2011-11-03 09:02:18 UTC
The Naga will probably have a split bonus: one for missiles, one for hybrids.

It is absolutely normal it gets to use cruises and torpedoes.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#25 - 2011-11-03 09:50:26 UTC
Ok lets scrap this bull crap and do a torp / EW strength bonus. and be done with it.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-11-03 12:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Niko Takahashi wrote:
Ok lets scrap this bull crap and do a torp / EW strength bonus. and be done with it.


There was a reason to fly the Talos with web bonus, seems he lost it and most prob made those interested to fly it loose any hope to do something with other than gank orcas in belts.

ECM is way too much overpowered to put it in to that hull, but I wouldn't be surprised if CCP does.

The only one I can't fly is the amarr one but I'm willing to believe I have good chances I'll fly the one worthy for it's bucks.
Dark Pangolin
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#27 - 2011-11-03 13:54:10 UTC
16 Nyx 721
17 Rifter 704

That right there is not getting enough attention...LOOK AT THAT PLEASE...

Don't start complaining about ships before they are introduced. I'm sure they will all be terribad in some way and the forums shall run red with "Nerf the XXX and boost the XXX its not a pwn machine!" once the ships are actually released. I'm also 100% sure people will find ways to use them that no one ever thought of and will break those bad boys about 25min after they are built and on the market...be glad CCP is at least using the models created by the fan base.

Lets see what happens on TQ before we go all "BOOST THE SHIP YOU HAVEN'T RELEASED YET!"

-DP

P.S. Personally I want a boost to my dreads agility and speed...NANO-REVELATION FTW! w00t!
Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-03 14:18:22 UTC
Serin Shadowstalker wrote:
I'm disturbed much more by the loss of a low slot, tracking and explosion velocity bonus then then its inability to use cruise launchers in the last revision. I was looking forward to having a split weapon boat that actually had double bonus to each system and enough lows to support it.

If they keep it at 3 lows i hope they make it double bonus torps.


i double agree on that! twice!
Cunane Jeran
#29 - 2011-11-03 16:17:02 UTC
Last I heard the Talos got changed to a Tracking and Hybrid damage bonus, to just throw that out there.

Also to throw something out there, your crying over a set of stats that are no where near finished. Fecking hell it could be a 5 slot torp boat with EW by the time it hits Sisi for all we know.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#30 - 2011-11-03 16:20:32 UTC
Another ECM ship for caldari, yep, that makes sense.
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#31 - 2011-11-03 16:23:59 UTC
Man how come i cant find these ships on the market already!!!!
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-03 16:35:40 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Another ECM ship for caldari, yep, that makes sense.


Strength bonus to ECM Bursts? A close-range, ECM-bursting torp boat? COuld be somewhere between hilarious and hilariously stupid.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#33 - 2011-11-03 16:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Dark Pangolin wrote:
16 Nyx 721
17 Rifter 704

That right there is not getting enough attention...LOOK AT THAT PLEASE...
Not at all surprising. A nyx in a fight with 100 people on either side that survives until the end gets on 100 killmails, a rifter that gets into a 2v2 and wins gets on 2 killmails. What I wouldn't mind seeing is stats that divide the each killmail by the number of people on it (would also do wonders in showing how good people REALLY are at pvp on KBs, there's kind of a big difference in a 10 to 1 k/d ratio with someone who flies solo and someone who flies with 100 people), it would give a much more accurate picture of what ships work well overall, instead of which ones are best for large fleet fights.

Dark Pangolin wrote:

Lets see what happens on TQ before we go all "BOOST THE SHIP YOU HAVEN'T RELEASED YET!"

Once it hits tq, unless it's game breaking, it's not getting changed, at least not for a few years. Look at marauders; they could be perfectly viable pvp ships (still not as good as pirate ships for the most part though) if ccp just changed their sensor strength to be on par with their t1 counterparts, and the whole reason they aren't is because they would have been OP back when we didn't have kickass pirate faction BSs, and that changed, what, a year ago? More?

Blackops are also a good example of this, having been pre-nerfed before hitting tq (mind you this wasn't so bad given how they're used now).

CCP has said that new content sells better than old content being polished, and they're notorious for releasing something new, then completely neglecting after it gets released. This time, leading up to the winter expansion, is probably the ONLY chance people are going to have to actually have a say in how these ships get balanced; now is by far the best time to be speaking up.


Smiling Menace wrote:


Not quite sure what this has to do with cruise missiles for the Naga?

Also, I wouldn't put a great deal if faith in those numbers as they are 'ships in space' which is not quite the same as actively being flown in PvE/PvP.


The OP brought up the point that people seem to hate the drake and the tengu, as mentioned in whatever alliance tournament he was watching. I pointed out that people hate them not because they're bad, but because they're overpowered in that they're viable at damn near everything. The fact that the most commonly flown combat ships in the top 10 are almost all missile ships (the drake being by far the most popular) reinforces that point.

Also it's worth noting that ships in space really is the best reasonable way to determine how often a ship is being used; anything more detailed would be impractical to collect data on.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-11-03 16:45:08 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Another ECM ship for caldari, yep, that makes sense.


Strength bonus to ECM Bursts? A close-range, ECM-bursting torp boat? COuld be somewhere between hilarious and hilariously stupid.


I'm leaning toward the latter. We already have ECM frigates x2, cruisers x3, BS x2, and our mainstay BC has more than enough mids to load an lolecm failfit. Giving caldari more ewar platforms is a good way of saying "well, we just cba to balance non-heavy missiles and there's really no telling what we're going to do with hybrids. Here, take some more of this crap and make the minmatar pilots mad."
Alexandria Aesirial
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2011-11-03 17:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandria Aesirial
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
(IIRC the drake is the most commonly flown combat ship in the game, being used more than than the other top 10 combined)

Reality Disagree's with you.

1 Drake 6444
16 Nyx 721
20 Loki 627

Monitoring the list the Drake has never had more then twice as much as the next best ship the Hurricane. The list is low because EVEkill Server Issues means a new 30 Day list started October 31. The day before the Drake had 175000 while the Cane a Small Gang Ship had 125000 and the Abbadon in the area of 80000.

Drake is good but not 10X as good.

Had to bold the NYX for epic lolz. I don't think this is true though.

It's only blobbing when you lose, otherwise it's good fleet comp.

Noisrevbus
#36 - 2011-11-03 17:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Cambarus wrote:
To be fair the reason people hate the drake and the tengu so much isn't that they're bad, it's that they've overpowered and excel in too many different areas (IIRC the drake is the most commonly flown combat ship in the game, being used more than than the other top 10 combined)

I will agree though that the cruise missile thing does seem a tad odd. Though with a missile speed bonus it would be a tad imbalanced.


Perhaps not quite on the topic, but i'd like to adress this part.

It's not really that they are overpowered, they only do two things well: tank and spank (or: a reliable buffered tank, with a reliable damage output and moderate reach). The problem rather is that in today's EVE, those two things are too encompassing (or powerful, if you may). Perhaps CCP should spend more time making sure the landscape recieve a better functionality than to go around and adjust trend brought about by a stale sandbox? A simple way to fix "moar draeks" is to reinforce small-gang warfare in the 0.0 setting.

Most of the things flown alot, execerbated by fleet-presence in quarterly statistics, deal in very simplistic tank-spank or countering it. Drakes, Tengus, Abaddons (damage, resistance), AHACs (damage, sig) and Maelstroms (alpha vs. buffer). None of them are quite as potent when scaled down or put in an environment where the pilots are required to maintain more elements on the field or carry out more commands. In those settings, scaling them down to even mid-sized combat, they are still potent but not quite as omnipotent without numbers.

CCP sadly has a poor trend there with making everything more accessible en masse, these new tier 3 BC are no exception to that. I can easily call it now, that initially they will bring the element of distance (as field control) to the masses and back into trend to shake things up a bit, but long-term they will have a stifling effect on the game as a whole, by subverting elements from existing tools and providing easily accessible counter. Making a difficult game more accessible to new players is a good thing, but doing it at the expense of- or without considering balance is quite distressing for an MMO. Give and take, you know.

If there's any lasting, or slow, trend in EVE over the past handful of years, then it is that it's become more twosided and shallow. Larger thrive, smaller perish or cluster (look at PL), the political landscape more orderly and less facetted, and the separation between null, low and high more appearant (despite what Goons belive dom-anoms achieved pre-nerf). Soveriegn space is definately far less sovereign than it used to be. Access should also come in form not just resource.

The Naga? The Tornado and Oracle will be good, the Talos will become popular in it's own setting but not out of it and the Naga will be lumped in as a lesser option with either group. The best part about it is that the class seem related enough to at least not cause any direct exclusion from general fleets (ie., the ships are similar enough, as with Stealth bombers, that details about what is better won't affect participation unless you micro-manage efficiency to the extreme).
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#37 - 2011-11-03 20:42:32 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
To be fair the reason people hate the drake and the tengu so much isn't that they're bad, it's that they've overpowered and excel in too many different areas (IIRC the drake is the most commonly flown combat ship in the game, being used more than than the other top 10 combined)

I will agree though that the cruise missile thing does seem a tad odd. Though with a missile speed bonus it would be a tad imbalanced.


Perhaps not quite on the topic, but i'd like to adress this part.

It's not really that they are overpowered, they only do two things well: tank and spank (or: a reliable buffered tank, with a reliable damage output and moderate reach). The problem rather is that in today's EVE, those two things are too encompassing (or powerful, if you may). Perhaps CCP should spend more time making sure the landscape recieve a better functionality than to go around and adjust trend brought about by a stale sandbox? A simple way to fix "moar draeks" is to reinforce small-gang warfare in the 0.0 setting.
The problem is that tank and spank are the 2 main aspects to damn near every fight, and while ewar/logi/other support are always nice, there are very few instances where someone will be told they CAN'T bring dps.


Noisrevbus wrote:

Most of the things flown alot, execerbated by fleet-presence in quarterly statistics, deal in very simplistic tank-spank or countering it. Drakes, Tengus, Abaddons (damage, resistance), AHACs (damage, sig) and Maelstroms (alpha vs. buffer). None of them are quite as potent when scaled down or put in an environment where the pilots are required to maintain more elements on the field or carry out more commands. In those settings, scaling them down to even mid-sized combat, they are still potent but not quite as omnipotent without numbers.
Therein lies the problem. It's the whole reason I label the drake as OP. It's amazing in large numbers, while simply being pretty good in smaller fleets. Hell, the reason it's so popular is a perfect example of this; a ship that does at least reasonably well at all ranges/fleet sizes is better than one that has to fill a small niche for only a slight increase in performance.
A ship that does consistent damage from 0 - 70 is better than one that does slightly more but only out to 20.
A ship that does consistently well in fleet numbers from 0-200 is better than one that only works at one end of the spectrum.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#38 - 2011-11-04 00:15:14 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
To be fair the reason people hate the drake and the tengu so much isn't that they're bad, it's that they've overpowered and excel in too many different areas (IIRC the drake is the most commonly flown combat ship in the game, being used more than than the other top 10 combined)

I will agree though that the cruise missile thing does seem a tad odd. Though with a missile speed bonus it would be a tad imbalanced.


Perhaps not quite on the topic, but i'd like to adress this part.

It's not really that they are overpowered, they only do two things well: tank and spank (or: a reliable buffered tank, with a reliable damage output and moderate reach). The problem rather is that in today's EVE, those two things are too encompassing (or powerful, if you may). Perhaps CCP should spend more time making sure the landscape recieve a better functionality than to go around and adjust trend brought about by a stale sandbox? A simple way to fix "moar draeks" is to reinforce small-gang warfare in the 0.0 setting.
The problem is that tank and spank are the 2 main aspects to damn near every fight, and while ewar/logi/other support are always nice, there are very few instances where someone will be told they CAN'T bring dps.


Noisrevbus wrote:

Most of the things flown alot, execerbated by fleet-presence in quarterly statistics, deal in very simplistic tank-spank or countering it. Drakes, Tengus, Abaddons (damage, resistance), AHACs (damage, sig) and Maelstroms (alpha vs. buffer). None of them are quite as potent when scaled down or put in an environment where the pilots are required to maintain more elements on the field or carry out more commands. In those settings, scaling them down to even mid-sized combat, they are still potent but not quite as omnipotent without numbers.
Therein lies the problem. It's the whole reason I label the drake as OP. It's amazing in large numbers, while simply being pretty good in smaller fleets. Hell, the reason it's so popular is a perfect example of this; a ship that does at least reasonably well at all ranges/fleet sizes is better than one that has to fill a small niche for only a slight increase in performance.
A ship that does consistent damage from 0 - 70 is better than one that does slightly more but only out to 20.
A ship that does consistently well in fleet numbers from 0-200 is better than one that only works at one end of the spectrum.


It has been said CCP does not balance ships based on PVE. Should ships be balanced based on the tendency of people to blob them?

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#39 - 2011-11-04 00:27:11 UTC
BearJews wrote:
Man how come i cant find these ships on the market already!!!!



Check contracts.

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.

Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#40 - 2011-11-04 18:06:40 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:

It has been said CCP does not balance ships based on PVE. Should ships be balanced based on the tendency of people to blob them?

When a ship does extremely well in blob warfare, while still being good in small gangs, and still being good in pve, and being dirt cheap, and being absurdly easy to skill for, I see no problem with labelling it as OP.