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Faction weapon build costs

First post
Author
Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#1 - 2013-10-26 21:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
Hello

I have an issue regarding the price for faction weapons in the LP store. In brief the cost in tags for these weapons is too high. Tag generation rates have suffered from a series of patches and game design changes but the lp store tag costs haven't been adjusted to compensate. What we see now is these weapons are disproportionately expensive to other weapons of the same type. This is not an issue of drop rates: players can physically build these modules and that needs to be accounted for.

I request a rebalance of their cost to increase availability as the end goal.

Long version:

The central issue of the current balance for faction weapons are their meta level. With some of these modules having a meta level of 9 in terms of CCPs internal balancing metric this would require them to be very expensive and have a degree of power higher than the lower meta levela. Where faction weapon stats specifically are considered they typically possess a few key bonuses. First of all they generate heat when overheated at around half the rate of t1 and t2 modules. Secondly they have a bit higher ammo capacoty. In terms of caldari/fed navy turrets I observed slightly higher optimal on caldari faction rails while fed navy rails had more fall off. Lastly navy weapons have less fitting requirements.

In theory a dedicated fw player should be able to, through only his own efforts, obtain the tags for and build himself a full faction ship complete with faction weapons/support modules and ammo. It would be time consuming but the overall benefit for this player would be possession of a ship that is considerably tougher than the base t1 variant and have a full compliment of high grade weapons. His ship would have efficient tanking modules and better weapons for general purpose combat. This is a noble goal in itself - the player has built this ship through his own work.

The issues start when you begin to account for how he will build it. There is only one way to get faction stuff - tags. Tags are generated in three ways primarily those being mission running, fw missions or coercing faction police to fight. Before the fw rebalance a couple of years ago it was possible to use the bountiful faction rats found in button complexes as a steady source of tags. With the other dominant alternative being L4 misssion running it was much easier just to use fw for collecting tags - a theory supported by the internal game mechanics of the LP store especially the fw LP store. The rebalance was enacted to reduce the npcs in a complex to bare minimum as a measure of enabling players to fight on more even terms. Unfortunately this stripped one of the most popular methods of tag generation from the game entirely and the fall out from this has been faction weapons are a tiresome grind to build now.

In terms of balance of the faction meta items themselves I do not intend any action here. I am solely concerned with making these modules easier to acquire. In a perfect world faction stuff ahould be more expensive than t2 gear where they are just outright better mainly in terms of like cal navy shield extenders or pds. Things like passive shield hardeners or boost amps are outright better than t2 and cost a respectable amount alrrady. It's when looking at weapons that things start getting crazy. As of this writing cal navy ham launchers are 60 million each - a price not justifiable through any metric. They are so expensive only because to build them costs an upfront few million from the lp store and also something like 500 tags. Five hundred.

CCP should in my opinion reduce the LP store costs of these weapons and weapon bpcs in preference to creating a more accessible tag generator. Why? Because if a new source of tags is created but is created in the wrong way or place nothing will change. People are already not expending the effort to farm hundreds of tags and they won't do it in the future either. By reducing the LP store cost however you let the market drive demand ny virtue of much lower costs and an associated increase in supply as people's pre existing tags get more mileage. Faction gear already out performs t2 stuff by a not inconsiderable margin depending on what you're looking for, lower prices will drive demand up. The increase in demand will see prices fall further over time and hopefully have the tertiary effect of making FW a more attractive and serious occupation in and of itself. With LP stores acting like a giant isk sink for the game getting people to buy more stuff from there will benefit the economy and help to drive inflation down. I won't specifcy any prices for a full faction fit but if conjecture put it at 2 -4 x the price of a t2 ship I think that could be very reasonable
wagashi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-10-27 06:18:14 UTC
There is indeed a lot of tags that are required for each module,but the price of those tags still haven't gone up to ridiculous yet. you can source any of the tags at any of the market hub systems. also place buy orders at "staging systems" of FW corps.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#3 - 2013-10-28 11:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
IMO Faction weapons generally are overpriced by about an order of magnitude. Given that they don't in practice outperform T2 (due to the effect of weapon specialisation skills) and can't use T2 ammo, they should have a target price of around double the equivalent T2 gear, triple at most.

That would actually make them a viable alternative to T2 rather than just vanity ornaments.

EDIT: And such a change would also allow them to serve as a useful alternative if we see runaway T2 materiel prices.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#4 - 2013-10-28 23:19:51 UTC
Op updated with more info
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2013-10-29 09:53:13 UTC
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.

Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Eliza Loney
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-10-29 18:28:35 UTC
I would love to be able and use my LP to buy ships and modules directly ( at inflated LP costs of course)

That should encourage people to upgrade I-hubs more.

My other thoughts on tags:

Exchange tags for LP directly at a fixed rate based on the tag level ( or variable so CCP can adjust it as needed )
- All items would be LP only other than items that need other things like Nexus chips, Data cores, ammo etc

-OR-

Have 2 different prices on the same item, one with tags, one without.

- With tags would be a better LP / Tag ratio than the strait LP cost
- The Tag market and gathering may pick up in response to better LP / Tag ratios
- More people in faction warfare to gain access to the faction equipment
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#7 - 2013-10-29 22:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmine Assasin
Malcanis wrote:
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.

Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.


Not that my opinion counts for much because ~NPC CORP~ but I can't really think of anything bad about this. Right now EVE-Central puts the average price of FN 250mm rail guns at something like 116m each. One rack of those would pay for a small fleet of fully t2 fit Battlecruisers. To me that's broken.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-10-30 00:47:36 UTC
Faction weapon imbalance is another issue that would ideally be rolled into a 'metacide' initiative for module balancing along the same lines as the tiericide of ship hulls we have already seen. Fozzie has indicated previously that such a balancing project might be on the cards eventually but if those plans can be made reality then the sooner the better.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#9 - 2013-10-31 19:35:33 UTC
6 days since I posted this thread without anyone raising an issue. Can this now be put forward to CCP?
Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#10 - 2013-12-21 14:42:36 UTC
Observed the new RHML launcher addition to cal navy LP store. It costs the same number of tags to produce 5 of these as it costs to produce a BPC for 5 run 200mm railgun

That's a battleship weapon for as cheap as 200mm railguns (cruiser weapon). How does this make sense at all?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-12-22 19:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
Malcanis wrote:
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.

Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.

IMHO, faction weapons should outperform T2, but only until specialization 3 or 4 for the T2 weapon, as fara s weapons go, the ONLY kind of modules that should ever perform better or equal to T2 at lvl 5 spec is DED or officer gear, faction should be allowed T2 ammo but become weaker compared to T2 after spec 3 or 4. hell, kinda on the fence on whether faction should perform so much better as it does than T2 for the other module types as well, makes T2 kinda silly in a lot of cases, where the "benefit" of that faction is a better module for triple or quadruple the cost, but extra fitting room to make an overall vastly superior fit than if you had used T2, making it a huge benefit. but whatever, CCp will do whatever the hell they please.
Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#12 - 2013-12-23 03:30:37 UTC
Cost should never be used as a balancing factor. What you pay for an item on the market is your decision alone. The point of contention here comes from the manufacturing cost from the LP store - taken against the raw stats performance of the item and finally the supply of materials from the source.

As I detailed above - the supply of tags for these items used to be part of FW plexing, in addition to mission farming. Now though the issue is much harder since those FW tags have been removed and all that remains are FW missions and regular missions. The average player will not farm tags from FW missions surely because of the immense danger that being in low sec and running a mission alone represents but also because of the loss of potential LP gain and the delay in the rewards from that mission alone. Running missions like that in small fleets cuts in to everyones profits - it's a really badly designed system. High sec mission running will produce tags 'eventually' thanks to getting oodles of useless pirate tags first. I guess you could go to a border system from one high-sec to another and start farming the NPC police that come to kill you but that seems slow and inefficient. At least non-FW gankers will get concorded i guess.

Thirdly and lastly are the raw performance for faction weapons over t1/t2/officer weapons. Not much to say here, grab the compare tool next time you're in game and take a look. It depends on what faction you're taking the weapon from and what kind of weapon you want. Faction weapons should definitely NOT have access to t2 ammo - the only reason to train t2 specialization is because of the t2 ammo. Faction weapons in my opinion are really our meta5 weapons while t2 are our meta 6 items. It would more accurately represent the kind of dedication to their training that when fully decked to level 5 specialization a t2 blaster outperforms a faction blaster.

Once again though i leave those technical details to the balancing staff, my concern here is making the supply of faction weapons easier - such that they aren't 30 or 40 million for a small neutron fed navy because they don't *have* to be that costly as compensation for the effort of making them. Even pirate faction weapons which share identical stats are often significantly cheaper only because they're so much easier to acquire.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#13 - 2013-12-24 09:55:58 UTC
I would actually like that CCP carry the same attitude they have with faction ships (they want to see more of them in space). I support making faction weapons (and at least all navy faction modules) more accessible (much more volume and cheaper (2-3 times the price of the T2 module, not 100x in some cases). Perhaps remove a large portion (if not all) of the tag costs? It could follow similarly to the difference between FW and highsec NPC corp LP store prices as it is with the ships. I don't even think you would need to rebalance the faction weapons that much. There should a choice between using faction and tech II. You lose the ability to use tech 2 ammo (which is a big deal) but you don't really gain that much from a faction weapon to justify the cost as it is now, slightly higher rates of fire (which are almost the same as T2 because of specialization skills), lower fitting, more ammo capacity, etc.
Hasan al-Askari Mujahideen
War. Mongers
#14 - 2014-02-16 12:02:58 UTC
it does need to be nerfed or updated to make it eazer to cash out, also another way to add more tags is to have players in fw drop rank tags, it would give a reason to hunt down players.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#15 - 2014-02-21 16:07:31 UTC
Agreed. Lets give us more realistic fitting options. More options for using our lp as well as encouraging the lp isk sink. I would love to see faction modules used more. Without ridiculous pricing.
X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#16 - 2014-02-21 16:24:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.

Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.

The original BPO holders of T2 weapon systems will see their profits drop to only healthy levels.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2014-02-21 17:04:39 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.

Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.


I completely concur that faction modules could use a serious rebalancing pass. At the moment, they generally come across with somewhat jumbled attributes, sometimes being better then t2, sometimes worse, sometimes just different.

I think asking CCP to spend some time rebalancing them, from their attributes to their build costs would be generally a good thing. I don't know where I prioritize it, but it is an area of game play that needs tweaking.

To be honest, this is not a small project, and shouldn't be treated in such a manner.


Bull Crap
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-02-24 22:39:33 UTC
They should give additional attribute bonus to faction mods if they go on the corresponding faction ship, like a 5% bonus. That would make those faction guns more usable and other seemingly useless faction mods.
Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#19 - 2014-02-25 01:36:12 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.

Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.

The original BPO holders of T2 weapon systems will see their profits drop to only healthy levels.


It is worth mentioning that faction weapon bpcs are another isk sink and require multiple sources of labour to create. If faction weapon build costs should face a rebalance then including data/relic site materials would be a good addition on top of mining and tags.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2014-02-25 08:40:47 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.

Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.

The original BPO holders of T2 weapon systems will see their profits drop to only healthy levels.


I doubt it tbh. Faction weapons generally use less cap and fitting, and have a lower skill requirement in return for a little less dps, no T2 ammo and less availability. Most doctrines will still be based on t2 imo.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

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