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Active Tank or Buffer Tank
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Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#21 - 2013-10-27 06:10:04 UTC
Tarren Renalard wrote:
Chessur wrote:
1. You never fly a tengu with crystals, always HG snakes for the 100MN AB tengu.
2. Buffer is going to be much cheaper fitting wise than an active tank.
3. The fact that you are asking these questions means you should not be flying a tengu in the first place.
4. The cerb is better than the tengu, you should fly that.
5. HAM"s are bad- get RLMs


Why is it bad to fly tengu with crystals? 100mn fits don't seem logical, you need to fit HML or RLML for it to work and fit a crap ton of agility mods for it to work... And HAMS are bad how? I'm not gonna be fighting frigates all day

And I'm asking these questions to learn, I'm getting my fit now, waiting till I get my skills up, till then I'm PvP to learn things so no need to talk crap
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#22 - 2013-10-27 16:13:24 UTC
Quote:
I tested this out on sisi, Against a regular cruiser or faction cruiser HAMs do MUCH more damage per volley then a RLM, and against HACs they both did pretty much the same damage per volley, only a 5 to 15 different in damage, and sometimes it was higher with HAMs, sometimes higher with RLM (depends on the HAC I fought), but HAMs have a faster rate of fire, so really their DPS would be higher.

Both used scourge caldari navy missiles, and I didn't kill the ship I was fighting, so their fits wouldn't be different at all. The only really nice thing I saw with RLMs was they killed drone in 2 shots, and they shot out to 94km, instead of the 45km that the HAMs did. The RLMs also use less PG and CPU it seems, so if that is an issue for a fit they might be a better choice then HAMs or HMLs. I used a Cerb as my test boat. But HAMs fire every 6s, to the RLMs 10s before bonuses, that's a pretty huge differance. Now RLM vs HMLs, I'm not sure which would be better.

The issue I have with RHMLs is that ALL cruisers that get bonuses to missiles get them to HAMs, HMLs, and RLMs, where as BSs still only get their bonuses to Torps, and cruisers, I very much hope CCP fixes this very soon. I also hope CCP makes the Golem look like the Raven again, but thats for a different forum haha.

Kagura Nikon thanks for bring that up though so I could really test them.


To prove the HAM Cerb compared to the RLMs is a better boat. Been tested and proven.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#23 - 2013-10-27 17:02:19 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Quote:
I tested this out on sisi, Against a regular cruiser or faction cruiser HAMs do MUCH more damage per volley then a RLM, and against HACs they both did pretty much the same damage per volley, only a 5 to 15 different in damage, and sometimes it was higher with HAMs, sometimes higher with RLM (depends on the HAC I fought), but HAMs have a faster rate of fire, so really their DPS would be higher.

Both used scourge caldari navy missiles, and I didn't kill the ship I was fighting, so their fits wouldn't be different at all. The only really nice thing I saw with RLMs was they killed drone in 2 shots, and they shot out to 94km, instead of the 45km that the HAMs did. The RLMs also use less PG and CPU it seems, so if that is an issue for a fit they might be a better choice then HAMs or HMLs. I used a Cerb as my test boat. But HAMs fire every 6s, to the RLMs 10s before bonuses, that's a pretty huge differance. Now RLM vs HMLs, I'm not sure which would be better.

The issue I have with RHMLs is that ALL cruisers that get bonuses to missiles get them to HAMs, HMLs, and RLMs, where as BSs still only get their bonuses to Torps, and cruisers, I very much hope CCP fixes this very soon. I also hope CCP makes the Golem look like the Raven again, but thats for a different forum haha.

Kagura Nikon thanks for bring that up though so I could really test them.


To prove the HAM Cerb compared to the RLMs is a better boat. Been tested and proven.



No you are wrong, that giy performing that 'test' is wrong. Rlms will do significantly more dps to a cruiser than hams. Also any cerb fit with hams is fail fit imo.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#24 - 2013-10-27 19:00:45 UTC
No you are wrong I did the test with 5 other pilots, with perfect missiles skills and spec to lvl 4, HAMs do more DPS to cruisers then RMLs and to HACs the amount is the some or within 5 to 15 damage of each other, BUT HAMs have a faster rate of fire so that makes it that HAMs do more DPS. When someone has tested it in game none the less, probably shouldn't question it. I tested it with 3 different pilots 2 in Navy cruisers, and one in T1, didn't destroy them, to make sure the fit didn't change. Then I tested with 2 other pilots, one in a Cerb, and one in a Vaga. HAMs do great against regular cruisers and HAMs do as good, if not a little bit better against HACs. Now against destroyers, and friagtes and drones RMLs do better, no doubt about that, but not against cruisers or bigger. Oddly I don't really care what you believe or don't, as I did the test in game and those who helped conformed with me through their log and etc. You are full of it just like you were on the other forum. But call me a liar or whatever, I care little of what you say as you were full of it before, like you are now. But enjoy your trolling.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#25 - 2013-10-27 19:53:35 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
No you are wrong I did the test with 5 other pilots, with perfect missiles skills and spec to lvl 4, HAMs do more DPS to cruisers then RMLs and to HACs the amount is the some or within 5 to 15 damage of each other, BUT HAMs have a faster rate of fire so that makes it that HAMs do more DPS. When someone has tested it in game none the less, probably shouldn't question it. I tested it with 3 different pilots 2 in Navy cruisers, and one in T1, didn't destroy them, to make sure the fit didn't change. Then I tested with 2 other pilots, one in a Cerb, and one in a Vaga. HAMs do great against regular cruisers and HAMs do as good, if not a little bit better against HACs. Now against destroyers, and friagtes and drones RMLs do better, no doubt about that, but not against cruisers or bigger. Oddly I don't really care what you believe or don't, as I did the test in game and those who helped conformed with me through their log and etc. You are full of it just like you were on the other forum. But call me a liar or whatever, I care little of what you say as you were full of it before, like you are now. But enjoy your trolling.


Hams do better against HAC's? Do you even understand how missiles work? I mean seriously you are really misinformed, stop posting. I doubt that you will be able to read this graph (because it is painfully clear you can't understand missile damage calculations) But here it is anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/eyxm3zI.png

Made that pretty graph just for you.

Both cerbs have all 5% damage implants, warrior II's, 3BCS perfect skills. All level 5 skills. They are shooting ships with just an MWD attached, nothing more.

So, you are wrong. Now stop giving bad advice, and lurk more.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-10-28 09:07:01 UTC
Frigates pose a massive danger to a ship fitting HAMs and this is doubly so when you are trying to solo without even a drone bay, I've tanked 3 HAM Caracals plus their (albeit limited) drones on a single T2 rep while running an AB in an Incursus. Two frigates with webs may well be your end, as damage applied by HAMs to small targets is that bad.

If you 100 MN fit your ship you'll be able to break free of webs by counter webbing and continuing to burn until you break range. This is why 100 MN fits require a web as well. Enemy webs are the greatest threat to you since you can not lose your afterburner to a scram only webs will hold you still, as long as you have a web of your own to web the target webbing you, your MWDish speed of your oversized AB will allow you to break free. If you get webbed multiple times: overload, web one of them and pray for salvation or a quick death. If you MWD fit you have to be extremely careful of getting scrammed or you'll be left with only the option of fighting your way out.

Just as an aside an old friend of mine (not allowed to join my corp of the time due to excessive numbers of bad losses) lost a HAM fit Legion within a few months of T3s being launched. The gang that killed him: 4 T1 frigates.

Finally faction guns are almost never worth it (I say almost in case there is an instance I have not thought of in which faction is better), your specialization skills only apply their extra damage to T2 weapons, not to faction ones and the option to use T2 ammo is often worth fitting T2 weapons even if that is the only reason to go T2, and finally they are far far cheaper for better weapons. If you can not use T2 launchers, you need to get some basic skills under your belt before you start thinking about PvP in a T3.

Also consider Nomad implants for 100 MN afterburner cruisers if you have all the ISK in the world, they make a gigantic difference in your ability to turn, the strength of 100 MN is the damage mitigation gained from high speed and low signature, while snakes will increase this ratio even farther the massive weakness of oversized ABs is the inability to fly in much more than a straight line, Nomads allow you to turn back on some ships to secure a kill you'd otherwise have lost due to your inability to turn back on it and stay with it.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-10-28 15:09:42 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
No you are wrong I did the test with 5 other pilots, with perfect missiles skills and spec to lvl 4, HAMs do more DPS to cruisers then RMLs and to HACs the amount is the some or within 5 to 15 damage of each other, BUT HAMs have a faster rate of fire so that makes it that HAMs do more DPS. When someone has tested it in game none the less, probably shouldn't question it. I tested it with 3 different pilots 2 in Navy cruisers, and one in T1, didn't destroy them, to make sure the fit didn't change. Then I tested with 2 other pilots, one in a Cerb, and one in a Vaga. HAMs do great against regular cruisers and HAMs do as good, if not a little bit better against HACs. Now against destroyers, and friagtes and drones RMLs do better, no doubt about that, but not against cruisers or bigger. Oddly I don't really care what you believe or don't, as I did the test in game and those who helped conformed with me through their log and etc. You are full of it just like you were on the other forum. But call me a liar or whatever, I care little of what you say as you were full of it before, like you are now. But enjoy your trolling.


Hams do better against HAC's? Do you even understand how missiles work? I mean seriously you are really misinformed, stop posting. I doubt that you will be able to read this graph (because it is painfully clear you can't understand missile damage calculations) But here it is anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/eyxm3zI.png

Made that pretty graph just for you.

Both cerbs have all 5% damage implants, warrior II's, 3BCS perfect skills. All level 5 skills. They are shooting ships with just an MWD attached, nothing more.

So, you are wrong. Now stop giving bad advice, and lurk more.


Looks like RLMLs need to be nerfed to me.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#28 - 2013-10-28 15:58:47 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
No you are wrong I did the test with 5 other pilots, with perfect missiles skills and spec to lvl 4, HAMs do more DPS to cruisers then RMLs and to HACs the amount is the some or within 5 to 15 damage of each other, BUT HAMs have a faster rate of fire so that makes it that HAMs do more DPS. When someone has tested it in game none the less, probably shouldn't question it. I tested it with 3 different pilots 2 in Navy cruisers, and one in T1, didn't destroy them, to make sure the fit didn't change. Then I tested with 2 other pilots, one in a Cerb, and one in a Vaga. HAMs do great against regular cruisers and HAMs do as good, if not a little bit better against HACs. Now against destroyers, and friagtes and drones RMLs do better, no doubt about that, but not against cruisers or bigger. Oddly I don't really care what you believe or don't, as I did the test in game and those who helped conformed with me through their log and etc. You are full of it just like you were on the other forum. But call me a liar or whatever, I care little of what you say as you were full of it before, like you are now. But enjoy your trolling.


Hams do better against HAC's? Do you even understand how missiles work? I mean seriously you are really misinformed, stop posting. I doubt that you will be able to read this graph (because it is painfully clear you can't understand missile damage calculations) But here it is anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/eyxm3zI.png

Made that pretty graph just for you.

Both cerbs have all 5% damage implants, warrior II's, 3BCS perfect skills. All level 5 skills. They are shooting ships with just an MWD attached, nothing more.

So, you are wrong. Now stop giving bad advice, and lurk more.


Looks like RLMLs need to be nerfed to me.


NO. RLML's are just really good on a Cerberus. Which was apparently needed to make the Cerberus viable. Infact, If I remember correctly the old RLML-Cerberus could ONLY do 350 DPS (no heat or rate of fire/damage implants). Compared to 450 dps now without heat or missile damage/rate of fire implants.

As far as HAM-Cerberus? Yeah, in most non-fleet engagements you're better off with RLML's but in fleets with a Rapier or whatever they do own. I'm not a fan of a Non-close range ham-Cerberus but using for balls deep range ONLY is hella RISKY. For close range I prefer the Sacrilege with Hams v0v.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#29 - 2013-10-28 17:41:59 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
No you are wrong I did the test with 5 other pilots, with perfect missiles skills and spec to lvl 4, HAMs do more DPS to cruisers then RMLs and to HACs the amount is the some or within 5 to 15 damage of each other, BUT HAMs have a faster rate of fire so that makes it that HAMs do more DPS. When someone has tested it in game none the less, probably shouldn't question it. I tested it with 3 different pilots 2 in Navy cruisers, and one in T1, didn't destroy them, to make sure the fit didn't change. Then I tested with 2 other pilots, one in a Cerb, and one in a Vaga. HAMs do great against regular cruisers and HAMs do as good, if not a little bit better against HACs. Now against destroyers, and friagtes and drones RMLs do better, no doubt about that, but not against cruisers or bigger. Oddly I don't really care what you believe or don't, as I did the test in game and those who helped conformed with me through their log and etc. You are full of it just like you were on the other forum. But call me a liar or whatever, I care little of what you say as you were full of it before, like you are now. But enjoy your trolling.


Hams do better against HAC's? Do you even understand how missiles work? I mean seriously you are really misinformed, stop posting. I doubt that you will be able to read this graph (because it is painfully clear you can't understand missile damage calculations) But here it is anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/eyxm3zI.png

Made that pretty graph just for you.

Both cerbs have all 5% damage implants, warrior II's, 3BCS perfect skills. All level 5 skills. They are shooting ships with just an MWD attached, nothing more.

So, you are wrong. Now stop giving bad advice, and lurk more.


Looks like RLMLs need to be nerfed to me.


NO. RLML's are just really good on a Cerberus. Which was apparently needed to make the Cerberus viable. Infact, If I remember correctly the old RLML-Cerberus could ONLY do 350 DPS (no heat or rate of fire/damage implants). Compared to 450 dps now without heat or missile damage/rate of fire implants.

As far as HAM-Cerberus? Yeah, in most non-fleet engagements you're better off with RLML's but in fleets with a Rapier or whatever they do own. I'm not a fan of a Non-close range ham-Cerberus but using for balls deep range ONLY is hella RISKY. For close range I prefer the Sacrilege with Hams v0v.


You realize I hope that the cerb did not in fact receive any damage bonus to rlmls in the new patch.

RLMLS are still better than the HAM"s even in fleet. Because if you are looking for damgae, get an ABC / Ishtar. Not a cerb.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#30 - 2013-10-28 18:29:28 UTC
Players fly and do whatever they want. HAM-Cerb works. SO does a nano shield-laser arby and so does a nano shield-cloaky-laser pilgrim v0v

Sometings work better than others and that's nice and boring. So, F*ck that and f*uck logic.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#31 - 2013-10-28 22:28:10 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Players fly and do whatever they want. HAM-Cerb works. SO does a nano shield-laser arby and so does a nano shield-cloaky-laser pilgrim v0v

Sometings work better than others and that's nice and boring. So, F*ck that and f*uck logic.


Are you seriously trying to argue the usefulness of a Nano shield laser arby?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that people should fly the pilgrim, with lasers?

It was clear from the first post that you were an idiot, but after all this posturing and flabbergasted shot posting, you should just leave.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#32 - 2013-10-29 13:51:19 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Players fly and do whatever they want. HAM-Cerb works. SO does a nano shield-laser arby and so does a nano shield-cloaky-laser pilgrim v0v

Sometings work better than others and that's nice and boring. So, F*ck that and f*uck logic.


Are you seriously trying to argue the usefulness of a Nano shield laser arby?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that people should fly the pilgrim, with lasers?

It was clear from the first post that you were an idiot, but after all this posturing and flabbergasted shot posting, you should just leave.



Nope. If you read between my words you'll see nothing because that is where I pressed the spacebar. As far as leaving. I wonder how you're going to accomplish the task of making me leave? As far as your other words of they mean NOTHING; just like your skills or lack there of and your blather. If i wanted to read sh!t I would empty my bowels in your favorite breakfast cereal and read the turds like tea leaves. Your opinions matter as much as a 13 year prostitute in cambodia. Since I know you're clearly a clown I won't insult you by NOT laughing at you.

Also, Pilgrim with lasers is BOSS and so is Nano - Arby. Great fun was had in those ships.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Platypus King
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-10-29 17:33:24 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Players fly and do whatever they want. HAM-Cerb works. SO does a nano shield-laser arby and so does a nano shield-cloaky-laser pilgrim v0v

Sometings work better than others and that's nice and boring. So, F*ck that and f*uck logic.


Are you seriously trying to argue the usefulness of a Nano shield laser arby?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that people should fly the pilgrim, with lasers?

It was clear from the first post that you were an idiot, but after all this posturing and flabbergasted shot posting, you should just leave.



Nope. If you read between my words you'll see nothing because that is where I pressed the spacebar. As far as leaving. I wonder how you're going to accomplish the task of making me leave? As far as your other words of they mean NOTHING; just like your skills or lack there of and your blather. If i wanted to read sh!t I would empty my bowels in your favorite breakfast cereal and read the turds like tea leaves. Your opinions matter as much as a 13 year prostitute in cambodia. Since I know you're clearly a clown I won't insult you by NOT laughing at you.

Also, Pilgrim with lasers is BOSS and so is Nano - Arby. Great fun was had in those ships.


U fly wut m8?
Mnemosyne Gloob
#34 - 2013-10-29 18:04:35 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
Chessur wrote:
5. HAM"s are bad- get RLMs


lol. i guess you don't fight anything that is your weight.


Pretty sure the RLM cerb would like to have a word with you.


I was thinking you meant tengu.
Tarren Renalard
MyMIX Corp
#35 - 2013-10-29 18:37:48 UTC
Can we get back to what to fit my tengu as an active tank or buffer? Thanks
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#36 - 2013-10-29 19:18:39 UTC
DOES NO ONE FLY BLASTER-FALCON, BLASTER-ARAZU or PULSE-Nano-PILGRIM?

ALLAH be merciful to these infidels... Poor b@stards know no joy Roll

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#37 - 2013-10-29 20:24:15 UTC
Tarren Renalard wrote:
Can we get back to what to fit my tengu as an active tank or buffer? Thanks



Again, can you afford to fit your active tanked tengu? Also what missile system are you planning to use? Are you flying 100mn?

Need some of these questions answered.
Tarren Renalard
MyMIX Corp
#38 - 2013-10-30 08:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarren Renalard
Yes I can afford it, I'm probably either gonna use HAM or HML on it don't really like RLML only if I was fighting frigates. And no 100mn cause agility is crap and easy for someone to get away because of turning speed, also seems to take a while to get up to full speed? Thanks

EDIT: Only really see 100mn used with HML and how would you keep point if agility is crap?

Sorry if don't make much sense, half asleep when writing this
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-10-30 14:22:25 UTC
Chessur wrote:

Hams do better against HAC's? Do you even understand how missiles work? I mean seriously you are really misinformed, stop posting. I doubt that you will be able to read this graph (because it is painfully clear you can't understand missile damage calculations) But here it is anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/eyxm3zI.png

Both cerbs have all 5% damage implants, warrior II's, 3BCS perfect skills. All level 5 skills. They are shooting ships with just an MWD attached, nothing more.

Erm, what missiles were used, Scourge Rage or Caldari Navy Scourge?
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#40 - 2013-10-30 14:57:36 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Chessur wrote:

Hams do better against HAC's? Do you even understand how missiles work? I mean seriously you are really misinformed, stop posting. I doubt that you will be able to read this graph (because it is painfully clear you can't understand missile damage calculations) But here it is anyway:

http://i.imgur.com/eyxm3zI.png

Both cerbs have all 5% damage implants, warrior II's, 3BCS perfect skills. All level 5 skills. They are shooting ships with just an MWD attached, nothing more.

Erm, what missiles were used, Scourge Rage or Caldari Navy Scourge?


Cn scourge for all ships. Rage will net you much lower dps.