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Senator calls Republic security threat and untrustworthy

Author
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#21 - 2013-10-24 18:07:11 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Pilot Marellus. This is a non-story being posted by a person with a well known anti-Republic bias. Nothing newsworthy to see here.


It's a slant at both the Republic and the Federation, with an attempt (one of many these past few months) to attempt to drive a wedge between the relationship they share. This isn't with a view to better one or the other, but to weaken adversaries and for the flag which they fly under to take advantage, the motive is so transparent that it's hilarious when they attempt to hide it under the poor disguise of genuine concern for either party.


Furthermore, the irony is some of these people who attempt such poor propaganda are the first to cry foul should Federal or Republic citizens comment on matters regarding the State or the Empire.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-10-24 18:28:12 UTC
Not that Horn and I have ANYTHING in common, socially or politically, but you think the thing driving the wedge between the Federation and the Republic is NOT the assassinations, border violations, fleet engagements, murders, political posturing and sectarian violence? It's the guy posting a thread pointing this stuff out?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#23 - 2013-10-24 18:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
No, I don't think it's the only thing.

It's just taking that wedge and applying a mallet to it, repeatedly, while trying to convince someone that this is just for their own good.


Besides, some people have been doing it for years, long before the recent issues, some of which you're overstating. Assassinations, for example, denotes plural, when there was one, and I'm pretty sure it was just straight up homicide, whereas assassination implies political.

See, it's all about how you word things, just like these nothing articles of news.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2013-10-24 18:46:46 UTC
I'm sure that Ava would take exception to you describing the murder of a head of state as being apolitical...

But I agree that playing these things up is as bad a sin as playing them down.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#25 - 2013-10-24 18:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I'm sure that Ava would take exception to you describing the murder of a head of state as being apolitical...

But I agree that playing these things up is as bad a sin as playing them down.


Political in the fact that it was backed by a Sovereign entity, this was a lone gunman murdering people. Had he been carrying out the orders of another entity it would be political; this was murder pure and simple, the slaying of innocent people without any political gain nor goal supporting a faction which he represented.

Let's not argue semantics. The situation is delicate, there have been incidents that have caused it to be so, and yet heads of state on both sides have come out publicly willing to rectify the situation.

This gossip mongering and sensationalistic crap is nothing more than an attempt to destabilise that situation, perpetuated and amplified by those who'd like to see either the Federation, the Republic or even both in a weaker state for their own gain.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2013-10-24 20:06:48 UTC
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Do remember that the attack on Yulai and the invasion of the Mandate was to rescue a tribe we had thought lost for over 100 years, and that were in grave danger from the then Emperor. Had this been "it", I have no doubt that people would grudgingly accept what we did and move on.


I will certainly never accept the sacrifice of peace, galactic stability, and so many people in the process to save a few other "special individuals". A few survivors of a lost tribe against all of that ? And after all, the Ammatar are not people, right ?

I am not even trying to understand why CONCORD is not hunting down the culprits already.

I agree with the rest, though...
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-10-24 21:44:12 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Quote:
The Minmatar aren't a threat, just the Republic.


Im not sure the Senate would agree with you there Fred. Yes they agree the Republic is a threat , but im sure they also realize the Minmatar minority within the Federation could also pose a potential threat. They may need to take some kind of action to spot potential dissidents or terrorist threats from the more extreme elements. We will have to wait and see what the Senate decide is the solution to the Minmatar/Republic problem.


First off, there is already a lot of surveillance and espionage going on. Any more is going to be too much. Secondly and most importantly, if there is any one race we need to be cracking down on it is, ironically, us ethnic Gallente. The Matari in the Federation have proven to be quite peaceful and loyal citizens. My fellow Gallenteans on the otherhand are causing some national incident every freaking week.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#28 - 2013-10-25 00:45:50 UTC
Indira Harashani wrote:
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Do remember that the attack on Yulai and the invasion of the Mandate was to rescue a tribe we had thought lost for over 100 years, and that were in grave danger from the then Emperor. Had this been "it", I have no doubt that people would grudgingly accept what we did and move on.

I would caution you to re-visit records from that year.

We had no Emperor at the time; instead we had a corpulent, power-obsessed heretic squatting upon the throne that rightfully belonged to those infinitely his better, as he delayed and blocked any attempts by the legitimate Heirs to resume the Succession Trials that have been part of our ways for longer than anyone alive today can remember.

If you wish to pin any blame for any danger the Starkmanir were under on someone, I suggest you direct it at the now-deceased Chamberlain (cursed be his name), rather than some non-existent entity.


My humblest apologies. I admit a very poor grasp of Amarrian politics, and all I knew is he was in some form of command. I thought that meant he was holder of the Big Chair. I meant no offense at all!

Thank you for pointing this out.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 

Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#29 - 2013-10-25 00:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyllsa Siikanen
Lyn Farel wrote:
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Do remember that the attack on Yulai and the invasion of the Mandate was to rescue a tribe we had thought lost for over 100 years, and that were in grave danger from the then Emperor. Had this been "it", I have no doubt that people would grudgingly accept what we did and move on.


I will certainly never accept the sacrifice of peace, galactic stability, and so many people in the process to save a few other "special individuals". A few survivors of a lost tribe against all of that ? And after all, the Ammatar are not people, right ?

I am not even trying to understand why CONCORD is not hunting down the culprits already.

I agree with the rest, though...


Frankly, captain Farel, neither I nor anyone else I have met gives much of a damn if you accept it or not. They were important enough to me and mine to risk all to save them. Were *I* in the Big Seat here, and it my sole decision, I would have violated the Mandate's space if it was the best, safest way of bringing them home - we were racing the clock here. To US, it was worth the risk, and the loss. It doesnt matter whether it was worth it to you. Do not forget, powerful people within the Mandate indeed even assisted us, and once again, the Nefantar and Starkmanir camp beside us at the Caravanserai. Sometimes, one must take a calculated risk. In THIS instance, that Risk was very worth taking. However, I think we are at a misunderstanding...

Had we NOT attacked the Empire proper, it would NOT have jeopardized peace. The Empire would not risk war over something caused by their incompetent emperor (whoops, would be emperor, as outlined above, ty again!) and disobedient officers in their little puppet state.

The incursion into the mandate had tangible benefits and was well within the bounds of what the international community would let us get away with. Good.

The invasion of the Amarrian Home Worlds was not. Bad.

Shakor overstepped a bound. That bound was NOT the incursion into the Mandate to save the Starkmanjiri.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#30 - 2013-10-25 00:59:30 UTC
Bah, Marellus already beat me to it in saying this is nothing but a sorry attempt at a vote winner.
Henry Montclaire
New Eden Exploration and Uprising Syndicate
#31 - 2013-10-25 04:22:48 UTC
The Minmatar population within the Federation is not as integrated as it should be. If the Federation pursued more aggressive policies to elevate the socio-economic status of immigrant families and insure that newcomers can quickly join the system and make it work for them, domestic terrorism would be an even more minor concern than it already is.

Alas, our leaders lack the political will and personal confidence to run an effective government. Especially when the needed reforms will necessitate raising taxes on corporations to pay for a more comprehensive welfare program.

I hope a capsuleer is elected to lead the Federation soon. Only an immortal is suited to taking the long-term approach to governance that circumstances demand.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#32 - 2013-10-25 04:26:51 UTC
Henry Montclaire wrote:
I hope a capsuleer is elected to lead the Federation soon. Only an immortal is suited to taking the long-term approach to governance that circumstances demand.


President Roden is a Capsuleer, sir, to my knowledge.
Texcoyo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-10-25 08:49:39 UTC
It does not matter if a baseliner politician or a capsuleer is elected, we still vote them in or out of office.

And yes, President Roden is a capsuleer.

And about the Matari, I honestly don't care what some blowhard in Villore says about them. The ones I have fought alongside, and the Matari that crew some of my ships are by far the most brave and enthusiastic warriors I have ever seen. If there was some order given to remove them from federation service, then that's one order many of us, including myself, would simply ignore.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#34 - 2013-10-25 16:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Henry Montclaire wrote:
The Minmatar population within the Federation is not as integrated as it should be. If the Federation pursued more aggressive policies to elevate the socio-economic status of immigrant families and insure that newcomers can quickly join the system and make it work for them, domestic terrorism would be an even more minor concern than it already is.


With respect, it's exactly this reasoning that led to the latest influx of domestic terrorism within the Federation. By excessively favouring the immigrant populations, all you do is give fuel to extremists like Broteau because the indigenous population is disadvantaged as a result.

It's a question of getting the balance right. Positive discrimination is just as damaging to a society as negative discrimination.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-10-25 16:15:20 UTC
Indeed. There is no such thing as "positive discrimination." It's always negative to someone.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#36 - 2013-10-25 16:27:52 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
First off, there is already a lot of surveillance and espionage going on. Any more is going to be too much. Secondly and most importantly, if there is any one race we need to be cracking down on it is, ironically, us ethnic Gallente. The Matari in the Federation have proven to be quite peaceful and loyal citizens. My fellow Gallenteans on the otherhand are causing some national incident every freaking week.


Agreed, it's a bit embarrassing.
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#37 - 2013-10-25 16:30:39 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
With Respect, it's exactly this reasoning that led to the latest influx of Domestic Terrorism within the Federation. By excessively favouring the Immigrant Populations, all you do is give fuel to extremists like Broteau because the Indigenous Population is Disadvantaged as a result.


Whether a given social program aids or does not aid social cohesion is an empirical question.

That being said, the Federation doesn't take policy advice from terrorists, least of all "home-grown" ones. The fact that a policy aggravates a bunch of assholes is certainly no proof of its wrong-headedness.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#38 - 2013-10-25 17:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Andrea Okazon wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
With Respect, it's exactly this reasoning that led to the latest influx of Domestic Terrorism within the Federation. By excessively favouring the Immigrant Populations, all you do is give fuel to extremists like Broteau because the Indigenous Population is Disadvantaged as a result.


Whether a given social program aids or does not aid social cohesion is an empirical question.


Indeed. If a social program is based upon bringing the truly disadvantaged in a society up to the same level of opportunity as the average member of that society then it's a good thing.

The problem is, many such programs go too far and as a result, start overshadowing any good the program could do as the negatives start to build. We get to the stage where well trained members of the native populace are being overlooked for jobs because someone who barely meets the minimum requirements happens to be of the correct background for showing the company is complying with equality regulations and avoids allegations of discrimination with the attendant lawsuits. It's as big a problem for positive discrimination based on age, sex, sexual orientation, religious beliefs and other traits as it is for being based on racial background.
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#39 - 2013-10-25 17:23:54 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
The problem is, many such programs go too far and as a result, start overshadowing any good the program could do as the Negatives start to build.


I haven't seen any evidence that this is the case, is what I mean. Or, I should be more specific, because I don't want to give the impression that it's your job to convince me.

The existence of ultranationalists, racist agitators, assassins, and so forth, is hardly adequate evidence that minorities have some kind of unfair advantage in Federation society.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2013-10-25 17:57:21 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Andrea Okazon wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
With Respect, it's exactly this reasoning that led to the latest influx of Domestic Terrorism within the Federation. By excessively favouring the Immigrant Populations, all you do is give fuel to extremists like Broteau because the Indigenous Population is Disadvantaged as a result.


Whether a given social program aids or does not aid social cohesion is an empirical question.


Indeed. If a social program is based upon bringing the truly disadvantaged in a Society up to the same level of opportunity as the Average member of that society then it's a good thing.

The problem is, many such programs go too far and as a result, start overshadowing any good the program could do as the Negatives start to build. We get to the stage where Well Trained Members of the Native Populace are being overlooked for jobs because someone who barely meets the Minimum Requirements happens to be of the Correct Background for showing the company is complying with Equality Regulations and avoids allegations of discrimination with the attendant lawsuits. It's as big a problem for positive discrimination based on Age, Sex, Sexual Orientation, Religious Beliefs and other traits as it is for being based on Racial Background.


Gabe... Are you getting policy speeches written for you by Synthia?

The Excessive Capitalisation is a little bit Disorienting.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.