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Varg vs Mach.
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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#21 - 2013-10-25 22:42:24 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:


Caellach Marellus wrote:
The exceptional overkill that is a Bastion boosted Marauder tank means you fit next to zero tanking modules and go all out on DPS increase.

The Vargur is probably the weakest of the four Marauders to really gain from this, compared to TP's on a Golem and the Paladin/Kronos getting extra lowslots.


Yeah, 2 slot tank is very nice indeed. It allows for a MJD and MWD, and the range bonus allows for the nano as I said, so while it doesn't really help with DPS, you never have to change your fit. Thats really nice. You could put a web in there, but with the insane tracking you rearely need it. Pretty much spider drones only.


See, I'd fit it the way I aim to with the Kronos. 3 damage mod low, 1 TE, 1 DC and then a range scripted TC in the mids, rather than a nano/web. Considering you're going to be immobile in Bastion mode, and you rarely need the ship to turn on a dime, I'd focus more on boosting the gun range, than aiming for mobility and trying to turn on a dime.

Course this works best on ships that have any form of optimal to start, might work if you go for an artillery Vargur and plan to volley the crap out of your mission, not so much on an AC tho.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#22 - 2013-10-25 22:48:20 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


Caellach Marellus wrote:
The exceptional overkill that is a Bastion boosted Marauder tank means you fit next to zero tanking modules and go all out on DPS increase.

The Vargur is probably the weakest of the four Marauders to really gain from this, compared to TP's on a Golem and the Paladin/Kronos getting extra lowslots.


Yeah, 2 slot tank is very nice indeed. It allows for a MJD and MWD, and the range bonus allows for the nano as I said, so while it doesn't really help with DPS, you never have to change your fit. Thats really nice. You could put a web in there, but with the insane tracking you rearely need it. Pretty much spider drones only.


See, I'd fit it the way I aim to with the Kronos. 3 damage mod low, 1 TE, 1 DC and then a range scripted TC in the mids, rather than a nano/web. Considering you're going to be immobile in Bastion mode, and you rarely need the ship to turn on a dime, I'd focus more on boosting the gun range, than aiming for mobility and trying to turn on a dime.

Course this works best on ships that have any form of optimal to start, might work if you go for an artillery Vargur and plan to volley the crap out of your mission, not so much on an AC tho.


Shooting past 48KM is a waste in a Marauder IMHO. I use AC on the Vargur, but my optimal + falloff is about 65k. Therefore I'm still doing nice damage at the 48K mark. That's with AC. I would not bother with an Arty Vargur.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#23 - 2013-10-26 00:27:14 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


Caellach Marellus wrote:
The exceptional overkill that is a Bastion boosted Marauder tank means you fit next to zero tanking modules and go all out on DPS increase.

The Vargur is probably the weakest of the four Marauders to really gain from this, compared to TP's on a Golem and the Paladin/Kronos getting extra lowslots.


Yeah, 2 slot tank is very nice indeed. It allows for a MJD and MWD, and the range bonus allows for the nano as I said, so while it doesn't really help with DPS, you never have to change your fit. Thats really nice. You could put a web in there, but with the insane tracking you rearely need it. Pretty much spider drones only.


See, I'd fit it the way I aim to with the Kronos. 3 damage mod low, 1 TE, 1 DC and then a range scripted TC in the mids, rather than a nano/web. Considering you're going to be immobile in Bastion mode, and you rarely need the ship to turn on a dime, I'd focus more on boosting the gun range, than aiming for mobility and trying to turn on a dime.

Course this works best on ships that have any form of optimal to start, might work if you go for an artillery Vargur and plan to volley the crap out of your mission, not so much on an AC tho.


Shooting past 48KM is a waste in a Marauder IMHO. I use AC on the Vargur, but my optimal + falloff is about 65k. Therefore I'm still doing nice damage at the 48K mark. That's with AC. I would not bother with an Arty Vargur.


I get 18+65km with null and 10+26 with void, the falloff numbers don't really entice me as much as the optimals. Sure hitting as far as I need with null is nice, but with the amount of face hugging NPCs, hitting for full damage up to 10k with void before falloff is awesome.

It's been far too long since I used autocannons to remember if the optimal can get to that, or if it just ramps up the falloff swapping from Hail to Barrage.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#24 - 2013-10-26 05:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:


Caellach Marellus wrote:
The exceptional overkill that is a Bastion boosted Marauder tank means you fit next to zero tanking modules and go all out on DPS increase.

The Vargur is probably the weakest of the four Marauders to really gain from this, compared to TP's on a Golem and the Paladin/Kronos getting extra lowslots.


Yeah, 2 slot tank is very nice indeed. It allows for a MJD and MWD, and the range bonus allows for the nano as I said, so while it doesn't really help with DPS, you never have to change your fit. Thats really nice. You could put a web in there, but with the insane tracking you rearely need it. Pretty much spider drones only.


See, I'd fit it the way I aim to with the Kronos. 3 damage mod low, 1 TE, 1 DC and then a range scripted TC in the mids, rather than a nano/web. Considering you're going to be immobile in Bastion mode, and you rarely need the ship to turn on a dime, I'd focus more on boosting the gun range, than aiming for mobility and trying to turn on a dime.

Course this works best on ships that have any form of optimal to start, might work if you go for an artillery Vargur and plan to volley the crap out of your mission, not so much on an AC tho.


Shooting past 48KM is a waste in a Marauder IMHO. I use AC on the Vargur, but my optimal + falloff is about 65k. Therefore I'm still doing nice damage at the 48K mark. That's with AC. I would not bother with an Arty Vargur.


I get 18+65km with null and 10+26 with void, the falloff numbers don't really entice me as much as the optimals. Sure hitting as far as I need with null is nice, but with the amount of face hugging NPCs, hitting for full damage up to 10k with void before falloff is awesome.

It's been far too long since I used autocannons to remember if the optimal can get to that, or if it just ramps up the falloff swapping from Hail to Barrage.


Ah, faction ammo only. That (t2) stuff only works well on Angels. There's a big difference between Minmatar and Gallante as far as that's concerned, we don't get many visitors in optimal, if ever. You get bigger numbers with the T2 ammo but mission completion times stay relatively the same. Optimal is like 3-5k. But its like 750 DPS or more as far as the tractors go.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-10-27 12:01:13 UTC
on the varg am i right in assuming that if u have level 5 MJD (25% reduction in mjd cd) then becuase of the built in 70% reduction in mjd cd in total u will get a 95% reduction in mjd cd?

If thats true u can jump every 9 seconds?
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-10-27 12:09:35 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
on the varg am i right in assuming that if u have level 5 MJD (25% reduction in mjd cd) then becuase of the built in 70% reduction in mjd cd in total u will get a 95% reduction in mjd cd?

If thats true u can jump every 9 seconds?


9 seconds is the spool up time before your ship actually jumps after activating the mod.

The cooldown between jumps is 54 seconds.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-10-27 12:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: My Little Pyongyang
As for the mach vs the vargur first you need to consider what kind of vargur. Come Rubicon artillery is not only viable, but superior in many cases especially with the MJD you cannot get stuck in a range that is under your guns.

The actual tank on these ships is mostly irrelevant, I extrapolate from my own machariel fittings for the vargurs. Might even be able to shove another TC on there if you want to fly without the booster or use a different style of tanking like ASBs however the second TC only gets you an additional 3km of superior dps for the AC varg over artillery, your call if it's worth it.

You will notice that I didn't include drone dps and the reason is twofold. For the vargurs it would not matter as it does not help differentiate them. For the AC MWD mach drones are a bit of a burden at times because you are going so fast and doing so much dps in your "optimal". While this is personal opinion this is also my experience from flying an MWD mach for the quite a long time now.

Yes these are all 5 damage mod setups, more damage is doubleplusgood.

[Vargur, Arty]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Bastion Module I
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Ancillary Current Router I

[Vargur, Autocannons]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Bastion Module I
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

[Machariel, Autoderpy]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Auto Targeting System II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
[empty rig slot]


EFT Graph

Red = AC Varg
Blue = Arty Varg
Purple = AC Mach

As you can see, at a mere 40km the Arty varg is now comparable to AC varg and superior to the AC mach. Now this is not such a big deal to the AC machariel going at 1500 m/s you can close the gap relatively quickly and it has other benefits like getting to gates quicker. However, this is a huge problem for the AC varg as it is slow as hell. Stationary even. Time spent getting into range is time wasted. At ~800 turret dps you have plenty of time to pop approaching ships before they get under your artillery. With an MJD there is no possible way to get stuck in close range combat so there are no drawbacks to artillery besides the fact that the cycle time is painful to watch and with only 4 double bonus guns you might actually be overshooting cruisers even with just a single artillery.

So those graphs were with RF ammo, use barrage you might say!

Well: Barrage

That's right, barrage is inferior to RF ammo in terms of the breakpoint between artillery and ACs. It does project more damage at further ranges than RF ammo for ACs but it is not the equalizer to artillery, on the contrary it just highlights how much better artillery is.

With all this information, what could my decision be? I would likely choose the arillery vargur over the AC MWD mach or the AC vargur as it brings to the table competitive dps with better projection, and it lends itself better to being a stationary dps platform that bastion makes you.

Bonus graph: Tach Pally

Just a thought.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-10-27 16:14:15 UTC
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
9 seconds is the spool up time before your ship actually jumps after activating the mod.

The cooldown between jumps is 54 seconds.



aw man that sucks
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