These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Hi-sec profits need to be nerfed in order to expand player activity into low/null

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#121 - 2013-10-21 18:23:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


The issue here is that the half that want to change it are mainly in 0.0 and seem to want to do it to force those in hisec into 0.0. Those in hisec don't want to go to 0.0 and cannot see why their ISK levels should be nerfed to force them to do something they won't do and ruins their enjoyment by making it harder to gain shiny stuff.


Aaaaaaand paranoia again! "You just want to make me go to low/nullsec so you can gank me!"

No, they don't. That's just you protecting your golden goose. It's always the same trite and tired response when people tell you that highsec is raking in the cash at an inappropriate level.

So, there are two real possibilities here. Either people who like highsec will stay in highsec because they're cowards and won't go anywhere that doesn't have CONCORD.

Or, they will go because they will only go where the most money can be made, in which case we still need to nerf highsec because the very existence of those people in highsec is a damning condemnation of how much obscene amounts of money can be made there in almost total safety.

So, people who are in highsec now are there for one of two reasons: safety, or money. If they are there for safety, then they won't leave anyway. If they are there for money, that just goes to show that it's too lucrative.


Of course you want a load of easy to kill low sec noobs in shiny ships to kill, who wouldn't? Hell taht would interest me...

From what I have seen the higher level Incursion groups and people who can multibox missions to their eyes bleed like robots can make cash at an inappropiate level in hisec, this is not true for everyone, Incursions can be compared to sites in terms of limited availability.

Those people who want to stay in hisec do so because they do not want to pew pew and lose their expensive ships, they just don't feel like doing it, cowards, maybe, but that is their choice. The thing is that they do not want to go into areas in which they can lose their ships period, the ISK makes no difference and if CCP was to make the ISK reward less then these people will stay in hisec and get fed up at the extra grind to get what they want to fly in, hell taht is their fun.

I believe that they are there for safety, simple as.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#122 - 2013-10-21 18:25:02 UTC
i am in low and don't care about ISK. Not everything is about profits.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-10-21 18:27:06 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

First of all I reject the simplistic risk/reward view that many of you have, its more like risk/reward/fun, for the average player running anoms is a lot better than running level 4's. And there is risk, you can get your mission ship ganked, or trigger the wrong ship and bang too much DPS and lots of webs and points.

In terms of the officer fit Vindicators that is a silly example, because who except for a few very can afford to fly something like that where you are likely to lose a ship, of course they won't take those into low sec or null, though I have in my time seen quite a few shiny ships in null.

And just because people have a mission alt which they run while waiting for PvP perhaps sitting on a Titan proves nothing, many people do that as they just warp out of the mission when it looks like they are going to get a fight. And because they are focussed on the PvP potential they cannot run a character doing anoms in 0.0. It makes sense and therefore proves nothing, just that its lower risk.


Why is it you reject that? Show us some compelling reason we should accept risk:reward:fun over risk:reward. The rest of the post is stuff that has already been refuted.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-10-21 18:28:49 UTC
Maliandra wrote:
Hi,
I am a full out carebear that rarely ever leaves hi-sec. I make several billion in profit each month (after calculating PLEX payments for each account) off mission running and mining with my fleet. If things stay this way I will have immense amounts of ISK to my name before I even know it.
As such I am honestly one of the last people who should speak out against hi-sec profits. But I am. I believe game balance is more important than my personal profit and what we have here is a lack of game balance.

Right now a person can make more ISK/hour (consistently) mining with a fleet in hi-sec than they can anywhere else doing anything else, with one exception: Hi-sec multibox mission runner/hauler ganking.
The scenario we have is thus: The biggest ISK earners are doing so in hi-sec, and the biggest ISK takers are also doing so in hi-sec.

This is counter to the entire point of low/null sec - increased risk for potential increase in reward.

I will not go into the details of exactly why hi-sec is so profitable, I hope discussion in this thread can touch on that. ]However I will relay an idea here.

We could commit these changes to hi-sec:
- Reduce bounties and agent payments for hi-sec missions.
- Reduce the amount of ores in hi-sec that are not Veldspar and Plagioclase.
- Reduce the quantities per rock to 2 cycles max and commonly just 1.


What does this result in?
- Mission running in low/null - with a disposable fit - would now be more profitable than running them in hisec.
- Only small time miners can really keep up in hi-sec. Large scale mining fleets will struggle to find belts with large enough per rock quantities to be worth their time. Very few large scale mining fleets are willing to lock onto a new rock with each barge every time a cycle is completed.

Carebears are only willing to put themselves in danger if there is a significant profit incentive. As of right now the profit incentive really isn't there, coupled with the fact that we make more than we desire anyways in hi-sec.

Profit reduction in hi-sec = Increased profit margin for low/null = Increased activity in low/null

Seems like a simple enough formula...

As such the big ISK earners in hi-sec will need to move their butts into low/null if they hope to keep up the profits.

You're a two month old newb who doesn't know jack ****.

You're a two month old alt of a null-sec care bear that is too scared to post on his/her main.

Either way, you're full of ****.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2013-10-21 18:36:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


The issue here is that the half that want to change it are mainly in 0.0 and seem to want to do it to force those in hisec into 0.0. Those in hisec don't want to go to 0.0 and cannot see why their ISK levels should be nerfed to force them to do something they won't do and ruins their enjoyment by making it harder to gain shiny stuff.


Aaaaaaand paranoia again! "You just want to make me go to low/nullsec so you can gank me!"

No, they don't. That's just you protecting your golden goose. It's always the same trite and tired response when people tell you that highsec is raking in the cash at an inappropriate level.

So, there are two real possibilities here. Either people who like highsec will stay in highsec because they're cowards and won't go anywhere that doesn't have CONCORD.

Or, they will go because they will only go where the most money can be made, in which case we still need to nerf highsec because the very existence of those people in highsec is a damning condemnation of how much obscene amounts of money can be made there in almost total safety.

So, people who are in highsec now are there for one of two reasons: safety, or money. If they are there for safety, then they won't leave anyway. If they are there for money, that just goes to show that it's too lucrative.


Since we know money can also be made in low/null with the difference really being that it is more dangerous, then the amount of money made in high sec should not really bother you because you would also be making money. The choice of living in dangerous sapce is one players make by themself. If you want non-consentual PVP to not cost you a ship, then you ahve to live in more risky place. CCP made sure that you can also make money in the PVP zones but your own choice mean you have to put more effort into it. Prove to me that the risk/reward ratio is more skewed than CCP intended and I will support your crusade because it will be then proven that the game is not balanced as it should be. Until you can do that, I will go with my own theory of "It's currently implemented the way CCP wants it".

It's not like nerfing the income of high-sec would be hard if they really wanted to nerf it.


CCP have nerfed null income many times but have not nerfed high sec income to match. Over the years this has resulted in an imbalance.


Is it even remotly possible that the nerf to null war to skew the ratio even more in High-sec favor or is it absolutely impossible? I can't really analyse what the intended ratio is from CCP because they enver comunicate about it so I have to take thier very rare action toward the ratio and pretend it's intended. If it is not, then why were those changes not done along other changes to keep the ratio the same? Changing the numbers on lvl4 missions would not be that hard I guess and would help level the income ratio but it was not done. Why?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#126 - 2013-10-21 18:36:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
It's the gate camps.

Don't want to be sheep and mine and grind in highsec? Boring? Yeah sure.

Go to lowsec or nullsec and what happens?

You end up gate camping. Big deal.

Oh and you'll kill everything that moves and then complain about a lack of targets when nothing shows up any more.


So we go from contradicting ourselves to looking like morons too.


Just make it easier for ALL ships to get around, even a system to system warp capability. Just do that and we'll see everything change.

For now all we are doing in threads like this is pushing a limp johnson up a hill.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#127 - 2013-10-21 18:36:35 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

First of all I reject the simplistic risk/reward view that many of you have, its more like risk/reward/fun, for the average player running anoms is a lot better than running level 4's. And there is risk, you can get your mission ship ganked, or trigger the wrong ship and bang too much DPS and lots of webs and points.

In terms of the officer fit Vindicators that is a silly example, because who except for a few very can afford to fly something like that where you are likely to lose a ship, of course they won't take those into low sec or null, though I have in my time seen quite a few shiny ships in null.

And just because people have a mission alt which they run while waiting for PvP perhaps sitting on a Titan proves nothing, many people do that as they just warp out of the mission when it looks like they are going to get a fight. And because they are focussed on the PvP potential they cannot run a character doing anoms in 0.0. It makes sense and therefore proves nothing, just that its lower risk.


Why is it you reject that? Show us some compelling reason we should accept risk:reward:fun over risk:reward. The rest of the post is stuff that has already been refuted.


Do you agree or not that level 4's are just damn boring and irritating? If yes then one has to take into account that there is a fun part to the game, I liked the risk of someone coming in when I was in 0.0, getting back to the station or POS, get in a PvP ship and go after them, get into small fleet combat or some big fleet stuff, I like it, but level 4's no, nothing breaks up the boring sameness of it, oh I am salvaging big deal, the very risk of 0.0 makes anoms more fun. You have to look at the risk / reward / fun, you cannot ignore the fun part of the equation which is what I have tried to point out on a number of threads. Level 4's are not fun, Anoms are not really fun, however its because there is risk that they are fun and taht is why most of the players I know will always prefer 0.0 myself included. This is why the ISK payout cannot be reduced, personally I don't think level 4 ISK is that great and I was doing loads of level 4's in Osmon a couple of years back.

As for refuting the point about 0.0 people having mission alts, I have seen them do it for this reason.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2013-10-21 18:36:36 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
for the average player running anoms is a lot better than running level 4's.



Oh god no.

They are just as boring and earn around the same.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2013-10-21 18:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Quite a confusing topic. Firstly, null seccers complain that there are too many people in high sec. Yet for some odd reason, if a highsec person goes to null sec the very first null sec person they see will most likely kill them outright.

If getting people into null sec is so important, STOP KILLING THEM....

Ya freaks :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#130 - 2013-10-21 18:41:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
for the average player running anoms is a lot better than running level 4's.


Oh god no.

They are just as boring and earn around the same.


I think they earn more for the average player, in themselves they are boring, its the spice of being in 0.0 that makes it more fun.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2013-10-21 18:42:11 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
It's the gate camps.

Don't want to be sheep and mine and grind in highsec? Boring? Yeah sure.

Go to lowsec or nullsec and what happens?

You end up gate camping. Big deal.

Oh and you'll kill everything that moves and then complain about a lack of targets when nothing shows up any more.


So we go from contradicting ourselves to looking like morons too.


Just make it easier for ALL ships to get around, even a system to system warp capability. Just do that and we'll see everything change.

For now all we are doing in threads like this is pushing a limp johnson up a hill.


It is so goddamn easy to avoid gatecamps if you bother to look at a map. You should be embarrassed by this post.
Mra Rednu
Oyonata Gate Defence Force.
#132 - 2013-10-21 18:42:17 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Amariancitizen 55667 wrote:
here is an even better idea. lets get CCP to go though every acct in the game and just delete 95% of all the wealth. that way the richest will loose more money the the poorest.

Good thing all my value isn't in isk.


Wealth would include assets as well.

It would be nice if 95% of the supercaps were gone, I admit.


But funnier if 95% of EACH super went.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#133 - 2013-10-21 18:43:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Of course you want a load of easy to kill low sec noobs in shiny ships to kill, who wouldn't? Hell taht would interest me...

From what I have seen the higher level Incursion groups and people who can multibox missions to their eyes bleed like robots can make cash at an inappropiate level in hisec, this is not true for everyone, Incursions can be compared to sites in terms of limited availability.

Those people who want to stay in hisec do so because they do not want to pew pew and lose their expensive ships, they just don't feel like doing it, cowards, maybe, but that is their choice. The thing is that they do not want to go into areas in which they can lose their ships period, the ISK makes no difference and if CCP was to make the ISK reward less then these people will stay in hisec and get fed up at the extra grind to get what they want to fly in, hell taht is their fun.

I believe that they are there for safety, simple as.


First point. No, actually. Because people tend not to do that twice, and I like to shear my sheep, not eat them. (I honor all ransoms for example, for 24 hours)

Ok, so you say "coward". I think it's a mix of both, to be honest. There are some smart people that are just making money hand over fist in highsec, and those people are only there because that's the best place to make money.

Well, I would argue that Incursions are not limited availability(seen some of those big groups farm them for days when they could have taken the mothership out in about 8 hours), so much as they have a barrier to entry. A big one too. Blitzing L4s on the other hand just requires a Domi.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#134 - 2013-10-21 18:43:39 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
It's the gate camps.

Don't want to be sheep and mine and grind in highsec? Boring? Yeah sure.

Go to lowsec or nullsec and what happens?

You end up gate camping. Big deal.

Oh and you'll kill everything that moves and then complain about a lack of targets when nothing shows up any more.


So we go from contradicting ourselves to looking like morons too.


Just make it easier for ALL ships to get around, even a system to system warp capability. Just do that and we'll see everything change.

For now all we are doing in threads like this is pushing a limp johnson up a hill.


It is so goddamn easy to avoid gatecamps if you bother to look at a map. You should be embarrassed by this post.


He is very capable of getting around, he really knows his stuff and will go where he wants, he is talking about players that are new to low sec and null.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2013-10-21 18:44:09 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
for the average player running anoms is a lot better than running level 4's.


Oh god no.

They are just as boring and earn around the same.


I think they earn more for the average player, in themselves they are boring, its the spice of being in 0.0 that makes it more fun.


Run several thousand and it becomes a grind. Its just mining vs rocks that move and shoot back.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-10-21 18:46:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
for the average player running anoms is a lot better than running level 4's.


Oh god no.

They are just as boring and earn around the same.


I think they earn more for the average player, in themselves they are boring, its the spice of being in 0.0 that makes it more fun.


Run several thousand and it becomes a grind. Its just mining vs rocks that move and shoot back.

Combat sites - we don't have billion isk per run faction filled pinata combat sites in high sec...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2013-10-21 18:49:27 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Combat sites - we don't have billion isk per run faction filled pinata combat sites in high sec...


We dont have very many in null either.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#138 - 2013-10-21 18:49:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Of course you want a load of easy to kill low sec noobs in shiny ships to kill, who wouldn't? Hell taht would interest me...

From what I have seen the higher level Incursion groups and people who can multibox missions to their eyes bleed like robots can make cash at an inappropiate level in hisec, this is not true for everyone, Incursions can be compared to sites in terms of limited availability.

Those people who want to stay in hisec do so because they do not want to pew pew and lose their expensive ships, they just don't feel like doing it, cowards, maybe, but that is their choice. The thing is that they do not want to go into areas in which they can lose their ships period, the ISK makes no difference and if CCP was to make the ISK reward less then these people will stay in hisec and get fed up at the extra grind to get what they want to fly in, hell taht is their fun.

I believe that they are there for safety, simple as.


First point. No, actually. Because people tend not to do that twice, and I like to shear my sheep, not eat them. (I honor all ransoms for example, for 24 hours)

Ok, so you say "coward". I think it's a mix of both, to be honest. There are some smart people that are just making money hand over fist in highsec, and those people are only there because that's the best place to make money.

Well, I would argue that Incursions are not limited availability(seen some of those big groups farm them for days when they could have taken the mothership out in about 8 hours), so much as they have a barrier to entry. A big one too. Blitzing L4s on the other hand just requires a Domi.


People like that hate to lose a ship, its because they find it difficult, its the difference between those that PvP and those that don't.

Its because they are safe and have limited risk, you have to add in to this the replacement cost of the ratting ship in 0.0 and low, that is perhaps the one area in which it slants to hisec to be honest.

Have you seen what happens when there is only one incursion, its crazy, also there are people who finish off the incursion fast to annoy others.

Personally I think the levels are about right, though I would improve poor systems a bit in 0.0

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#139 - 2013-10-21 18:51:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
for the average player running anoms is a lot better than running level 4's.


Oh god no.

They are just as boring and earn around the same.


I think they earn more for the average player, in themselves they are boring, its the spice of being in 0.0 that makes it more fun.


Run several thousand and it becomes a grind. Its just mining vs rocks that move and shoot back.


I have done thousands, and it is, but for me its much better than level 4's by a huge margin.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Marexlovox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-10-21 20:10:37 UTC
I say no, pretty much i got from this post is: Turn High Sec bears into Null Bears, its all about the taxes right?Big smile

The Cons from this:
-Forcing high sec bears to low/null with result in less subs, since a lot of people like empire and given skill sets for new players and new corps which take time to build skills and isk so they can venture out into dangerous places for pvp.
-Lack of ganking shiny ships will irritate a lot of players.
-Less activity to an already low activity for low sec pirates. (from empire bears crossing the empire/low border)

To be honest would like to see an empire beef. Just because you like null doesn't mean everyone else does. Pirate