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Why did CCP make Amarrian drones suck compared to other races?

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Antonio Steele
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-10-17 20:30:44 UTC
I'm sure many have noticed how few people suggest using amarrian drones for anything. The list of most damaging drones goes: Gallente, Caldari, Minmatar, Amarr. The List of drones from slowest to fastest goes: Gallente, Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar. The list of worst to best tracking goes: Gallente, Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar. The list of best total HP goes: Gallente, Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar (amarr only has a slight HP advantage over Minmatar.

As you can see, minmatar drones are faster, track better, and deal more damage than amarrian drones. Amarrian drones only top them in hp, but only slightly. I don't get why CCP would make them the weakest drone damage wise when they are not the fastest or best tracking drones either.

Also Amarrian sentries have the second worst range, second worst damage, and second best tracking. I see no reason to use them over Gardes or bouncers
I guess the only reason to use them would be for EM damage, but usually hobs perform better as targets weak to EM are weak to thermal as well.

I'm just wondering why the amarr drones were designed this way. Besides possibly needing EM damage type I see no reason to use them over Minmatar drones.

Has CCP ever explained this? Does anyone here have a decent explanation?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-10-17 21:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
You are quite correct about Amarr light, medium, and heavy drones. They are terrible and training Amarr Drone Specialization is a waste of SP.

However sentry drones are an entirely different matter. Curator II's complement Guard II's very well when fighting Sansha or Blood Raiders due to their superior range and more optimal damage type against rats that are weak to EM damage. Personally I carry a flight of Curator II's to pop long range rat BS's and a flight of Guard II's to pop close range rat BS's and cruisers.

Why are things this way? I dunno, maybe CCP will rebalance drones at some point and fix the issue.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-10-17 21:43:55 UTC
more importantly, when is drone revamp coming?
CMD Ishikawa
New Eden Public Security Section 9
#4 - 2013-10-18 10:33:40 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
more importantly, when is drone revamp coming?


Good question... CCP said it's coming soon(tm) ... =P
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2013-10-18 10:38:34 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
You are quite correct about Amarr light, medium, and heavy drones. They are terrible and training Amarr Drone Specialization is a waste of SP.

However sentry drones are an entirely different matter. Curator II's complement Guard II's very well when fighting Sansha or Blood Raiders due to their superior range and more optimal damage type against rats that are weak to EM damage. Personally I carry a flight of Curator II's to pop long range rat BS's and a flight of Guard II's to pop close range rat BS's and cruisers.

Why are things this way? I dunno, maybe CCP will rebalance drones at some point and fix the issue.


Curators are excellent for PvP as well. Wardens are the gimp sentry.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-10-18 11:24:09 UTC
It's been gone over for years.

The damage modifier for Amarr and Minmatar drones are reversed. Very, very old issue.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#7 - 2013-10-18 12:24:55 UTC
Theory crafting and reality are sometimes so far off. Amarr drones work very nicely if applied against the right target. In particular if you apply them against these ugly shield tanked nano fluff.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#8 - 2013-10-18 14:47:30 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Theory crafting and reality are sometimes so far off. Amarr drones work very nicely if applied against the right target. In particular if you apply them against these ugly shield tanked nano fluff.

Sounds like you're the one theory crafting.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
stoicfaux
#9 - 2013-10-18 15:10:40 UTC
Antonio Steele wrote:
Has CCP ever explained this? Does anyone here have a decent explanation?

Drones are slaves. You. Do. NOT. Empower. Your. Slaves. EVER.

Meaning it's a RP/lore thing reflecting the Amarr's psyche in their designs. It's also why Amarr missile ships don't have range bonuses; you keep your slaves (i.e. missiles) on a short leash.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-10-18 17:02:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
You are quite correct about Amarr light, medium, and heavy drones. They are terrible and training Amarr Drone Specialization is a waste of SP.

However sentry drones are an entirely different matter. Curator II's complement Guard II's very well when fighting Sansha or Blood Raiders due to their superior range and more optimal damage type against rats that are weak to EM damage. Personally I carry a flight of Curator II's to pop long range rat BS's and a flight of Guard II's to pop close range rat BS's and cruisers.

Why are things this way? I dunno, maybe CCP will rebalance drones at some point and fix the issue.


Curators are excellent for PvP as well. Wardens are the gimp sentry.


wardens used to be go-to for their range. they were the only ones with reliable damage at 100km. now with sentry damage mods and ishtar's new bonuses, curators and bouncers can hit comfortably at 100km, making wardens irrelevant.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#11 - 2013-10-18 17:32:23 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
now with sentry damage mods and ishtar's new bonuses, curators and bouncers can hit comfortably at 100km, making wardens irrelevant.


Also Gardes, thanks to Scope chips. Lol
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#12 - 2013-10-19 00:29:17 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
You are quite correct about Amarr light, medium, and heavy drones. They are terrible and training Amarr Drone Specialization is a waste of SP.

However sentry drones are an entirely different matter. Curator II's complement Guard II's very well when fighting Sansha or Blood Raiders due to their superior range and more optimal damage type against rats that are weak to EM damage. Personally I carry a flight of Curator II's to pop long range rat BS's and a flight of Guard II's to pop close range rat BS's and cruisers.

Why are things this way? I dunno, maybe CCP will rebalance drones at some point and fix the issue.


Curators are excellent for PvP as well. Wardens are the gimp sentry.


wardens used to be go-to for their range. they were the only ones with reliable damage at 100km. now with sentry damage mods and ishtar's new bonuses, curators and bouncers can hit comfortably at 100km, making wardens irrelevant.


Wardens on sniper drone fits that don't want to waste the extra mids just to buff sentries do use them.
I would not call them irrelevant at all.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#13 - 2013-10-19 04:39:02 UTC
Curator II's are great. OmniD is your friend.

Warriors are the only light drones that get used besides hobgoblins (out of damage drones) on Angels only, hobbies for everything else. Mediums suck and heavies suck worse. Drone balance definitely needed but not just Amarr.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Charles Panzram
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-10-19 11:49:13 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
You are quite correct about Amarr light, medium, and heavy drones. They are terrible and training Amarr Drone Specialization is a waste of SP.

However sentry drones are an entirely different matter. Curator II's complement Guard II's very well when fighting Sansha or Blood Raiders due to their superior range and more optimal damage type against rats that are weak to EM damage. Personally I carry a flight of Curator II's to pop long range rat BS's and a flight of Guard II's to pop close range rat BS's and cruisers.

Why are things this way? I dunno, maybe CCP will rebalance drones at some point and fix the issue.


Curators are excellent for PvP as well. Wardens are the gimp sentry.


wardens used to be go-to for their range. they were the only ones with reliable damage at 100km. now with sentry damage mods and ishtar's new bonuses, curators and bouncers can hit comfortably at 100km, making wardens irrelevant.


Wardens on sniper drone fits that don't want to waste the extra mids just to buff sentries do use them.
I would not call them irrelevant at all.


Yes because those sniper drone fits totally want to fit the sentry drone with the worst tracking and the lowest damage.
Tell me just one single situation/fitting were you would want to fit wardens in a pvp situation.
Even in pve most of the time you are better off with any of the other sentries. Because even vs targets weak against kin the low damage modifier + the worse tracking offsets the advantage of damage type in my opinion.

As for the topic I find curators very useful for pvp. Second best sentry imo.
stoicfaux
#15 - 2013-10-19 12:34:16 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Curator II's are great. OmniD is your friend.

Warriors are the only light drones that get used besides hobgoblins (out of damage drones) on Angels only, hobbies for everything else. Mediums suck and heavies suck worse. Drone balance definitely needed but not just Amarr.

Actually... elite Angel frigates (Angel Viper/Webifier) are weakest to thermal. Plus, they shield boost and their shields are good against explosive. T1 NPC frigs die very quickly regardless of damage type, so there's not much reason to use anything but Hobgoblins against NPC frigates.

Angel Viper, EHP versus:
EM: 2589
Expl: 2000
Kin: 2010
Therm: 1815

Angel Webifier, EHP versus:
EM: 1911
Expl: 1546
Kin: 1541
Therm: 1377

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-10-19 12:36:39 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Curator II's are great. OmniD is your friend.

Warriors are the only light drones that get used besides hobgoblins (out of damage drones) on Angels only, hobbies for everything else. Mediums suck and heavies suck worse. Drone balance definitely needed but not just Amarr.


Actually I quite like the caldari drones. The better shields + faster speed (go figure... Roll ) makes them more likely to get back to the drone bay without needing repairs.
It also means they will start applying damage to their target sooner

Their kinetic damage is actually better agaisnt serpentis and guristas than Thermal (more relevant against enemies with high resists than low ones). Their tracking is higher - although their orbit velocity is also higher, when engaging a relatively fast moving target, the relative transversal drops, and the caldari drones track better.

Together these somewhat compensate for the lower damage modifier.

Also, they are often much cheaper to replace.
Kaelnor Heidan
Supermassive Singularity
#17 - 2013-10-19 15:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelnor Heidan
I did the maths once. It's easy to do with a simple spreadsheet.

Basically, by calculating the time to kill, Acolytes and Infiltrators only get a slight advantage against EM weak NPCs AND if there's some distance to cover (30km or so depending on NPC ehp) as they travel faster.
Otherwise, Hobs and Hammers are always better.

So, they fill a really really tight and uncomfortable niche at the moment. But lets face it, drones badly need work, all of them ...

Curators are fine and balanced sentries, I use them a lot on my Armageddon.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#18 - 2013-10-19 16:15:39 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Curator II's are great. OmniD is your friend.

Warriors are the only light drones that get used besides hobgoblins (out of damage drones) on Angels only, hobbies for everything else. Mediums suck and heavies suck worse. Drone balance definitely needed but not just Amarr.


Actually I quite like the caldari drones. The better shields + faster speed (go figure... Roll ) makes them more likely to get back to the drone bay without needing repairs.
It also means they will start applying damage to their target sooner

Their kinetic damage is actually better agaisnt serpentis and guristas than Thermal (more relevant against enemies with high resists than low ones). Their tracking is higher - although their orbit velocity is also higher, when engaging a relatively fast moving target, the relative transversal drops, and the caldari drones track better.

Together these somewhat compensate for the lower damage modifier.

Also, they are often much cheaper to replace.


Hornet IIs are definitely an often-overlooked gem.

But yes, Acolytes are still terrible no matter how you look at it.
Mukiraninha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-10-20 19:51:49 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
more importantly, when is drone revamp coming?


+1 for drone revamp!
Antonio Steele
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-10-21 16:27:15 UTC
I'll admit. I had never tried curators before making this thread. I have now and I will admit they do work well. They still are off as far as uniform progression goes. They should do more damage than bouncers and less than gardes given their tracking and range. Even though they are the second weakest DPS wise they still worked great when I fought some Sansha rats in an L4 with my Domi. However, with max skills and 3 T2 omni's a domi can reach 70km with just Garde 2's, and that's before scope chip rigs. I hope they buff the rattler with a domi style sentry bonus when the pirate BS's get redone.
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