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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Angus McRothimay
Norse Complex Inc
#1501 - 2013-11-14 17:29:39 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Angus McRothimay wrote:

Yes really .....
Unless the original statement was sarcasm and you really think it will be "better" for the big corps -- in which case you should try to understand that sarcasm is harder to convey in written communication than verbally.

you're right, there was no possible way to puzzle out that was sarcasm

shame on you xttz for being sarcastic in print without saying you were being sarcastic


Thanks for confirming the statement as sarcasm.

Personally I look forward to the syphon units, I can't wait to see all the low sec folks venturing into to null to suck moon goo, and in return all the null sec inhabitants descending on low to suck off the low sec dwellers - A veritable smorgasbord for all
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#1502 - 2013-11-14 22:29:57 UTC
May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1503 - 2013-11-15 03:01:49 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...

Hmmm, somewhat vague request here. Syphon's have a maximum operational range of 50K so putting 1 outside of this range will render it useless for anything more than target practice.

May I ask what the point of placing non operational syphon's might achieve.

You could place them as bait but then why not just place them within operating range and at least use it for syphoning while waiting for the rare moment you manage to catch an unsuspecting cloaky hauler stealing from it (well maybe not unsuspecting, if your in system while baiting your showing in local)

** I believe your question to be no more than an attempt at trolling (badly), if not I hope I was able to answer to your satisfaction.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1504 - 2013-11-15 04:16:30 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...

Hmmm, somewhat vague request here. Syphon's have a maximum operational range of 50K so putting 1 outside of this range will render it useless for anything more than target practice.

May I ask what the point of placing non operational syphon's might achieve.

You could place them as bait but then why not just place them within operating range and at least use it for syphoning while waiting for the rare moment you manage to catch an unsuspecting cloaky hauler stealing from it (well maybe not unsuspecting, if your in system while baiting your showing in local)

** I believe your question to be no more than an attempt at trolling (badly), if not I hope I was able to answer to your satisfaction.

For baiting and popping those trial account alts?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1505 - 2013-11-15 06:03:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...

Hmmm, somewhat vague request here. Syphon's have a maximum operational range of 50K so putting 1 outside of this range will render it useless for anything more than target practice.

May I ask what the point of placing non operational syphon's might achieve.

You could place them as bait but then why not just place them within operating range and at least use it for syphoning while waiting for the rare moment you manage to catch an unsuspecting cloaky hauler stealing from it (well maybe not unsuspecting, if your in system while baiting your showing in local)

** I believe your question to be no more than an attempt at trolling (badly), if not I hope I was able to answer to your satisfaction.

For baiting and popping those trial account alts?
I doubt you will see unskilled trial alts leaving the pos they are monitoring but good luck with that.

You might get lucky (or very unlucky if your alone) and run into a fleet which a trial alt has called in to destroy the syphon. That is if they even bother as the syphon is harmless anyway, although both it and you will generate kill mails, so good chance they will show up.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1506 - 2013-11-15 06:44:08 UTC
xttz wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


The reality is that the small corps will behave like the small shopkeeper. He works hard, keeps things spic and span because he relies solely on his one shop. Goons will behave like Wallmart employees.


ITT I learn that small shopkeepers work 23/7, ever vigilant and alert.

My experience of running a small pos network (topped out at 4 large, with two of us doing maintenance) as a newer player was that only my main had the skills to move stuff around, the trading skills and rep to buy and sell at Jita with low taxes. I spent a huge amount of time running level 4 missions close to Jita so I could market trade to make the pos network profitable, then more time shipping stuff around.

All time I wasn't at the POS. The other guy had a job and a life so he wasn't camping the POS either.

The first time I rage quit to skill training online was due to those POS, although granted that was back when it took time to online every single damned silo.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1507 - 2013-11-15 09:43:05 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
May siphons be deployed anywhere or only within 50Km of a POS? I don't care if they are not operational...

On Sisi currently it won't let you deploy a siphon at all further than 50k or closer than 30k to a POS.
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
SONS of BANE
#1508 - 2013-11-21 11:20:15 UTC
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.


Thats the idea actually.

No more Absentee POS owners
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1509 - 2013-11-21 14:43:01 UTC
Krystyn wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.


Thats the idea actually.

No more Absentee POS owners



so let me get this right... POS owners now cannot participate in 99% of the game they pay monthly to play because they have to constantly be removing siphons off their POS's?

sounds like a balanced game mechanic that definitely wont pressure people to unsub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1510 - 2013-11-22 07:13:34 UTC
Has anyone seen a syphon on a pos yet??

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Vicisci
Vakou Harvest
#1511 - 2013-11-24 00:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vicisci
Is there a way to know a siphon unit date and deployment time, for myself and other pilots that deploy it and want to send the information?

EDIT: kill mail only shows date and time of destruction i think it should show date and time of deployment too.
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything.
Clockwork Pineapple
#1512 - 2013-11-25 06:08:20 UTC
I'm loving the people blubbering in this topic, keep it up guys, cant wait to steal your stuff
NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
Jump Drive Appreciation Alliance
#1513 - 2013-11-26 15:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: NearNihil
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Krystyn wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.


Thats the idea actually.

No more Absentee POS owners



so let me get this right... POS owners now cannot participate in 99% of the game they pay monthly to play because they have to constantly be removing siphons off their POS's?

sounds like a balanced game mechanic that definitely wont pressure people to unsub.
Let me tell you about the lack of bubble immunity on Blockade Runners. And about the recently buffed dictors. And about how an entire region can be defended against this sort of thing with sufficient people.

But who am I to tell a CFC pilot one of many solutions to a problem?
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1514 - 2013-12-02 05:07:47 UTC
NearNihil wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Krystyn wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.


Thats the idea actually.

No more Absentee POS owners



so let me get this right... POS owners now cannot participate in 99% of the game they pay monthly to play because they have to constantly be removing siphons off their POS's?

sounds like a balanced game mechanic that definitely wont pressure people to unsub.
Let me tell you about the lack of bubble immunity on Blockade Runners. And about the recently buffed dictors. And about how an entire region can be defended against this sort of thing with sufficient people.

But who am I to tell a CFC pilot one of many solutions to a problem?

ya all those bubbles in low sec on everyone's pos...oh wait there arent any
oh and all the superb intel gathering in lowsec....oh wait there arent any
ohhh dont forget the 30mm scan resolution on pos warp scramblers being able to lock anything smaller than a titan before it can warp off....oh wait they cant
Bellathor Fera
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1515 - 2013-12-06 13:20:28 UTC
Did read the first 10 Pages, after that it became just to much to read for me, so probably this has been suggested already or maybe not:

How it currently works:
1 Siphon steals 60/30 of the moon goo, meaning that 2 Siphons suck a POS dry entirely.
So 2 Siphons make a load of workinghours for nothing.
Setting up a POS and maintaining it is a hassel on it's own, you need a Rorqual/JF to be more time efficent, or you use haulers, but still a Large POS needs so much fuel that one hauler is not enough.
With those Siphons people who have the POS do all the work, while the siphoning people have almost all the ISK benefits of the POS.
Does CCP expect people who own several POSes to have Alts on every single one of them to check if there is a Siphon or not? Patrol the POSes every day?

POSes are set up to generate passive income or/and safe POSes for Supers and Carebears. They fuel the production of those pretty T2 ships and so on. Is the goal to make everything more expensive? Or for people just to say F**** it I'm not going to POS anything anymore?

As is maintaining 1 POS is a hassel already, maintaining several POS is even worse, but with those Siphons who can neglect you any sort of income it has become just an annoying task of double checking every POS every hour or so.

In general I think the Siphons are not a bad Idea, but the balance is just wrong! I don't mind people stealing a few m³ of MoonGoo from me if the put effort in it, but the current System is just spitting in the face of every single POS owner.

My Suggestion:

1. Change the fixed amount stolen to a percentage (that way the POS is not sucked dry completly)
2. The precentage should be somewhere around 20-30% at the max. (POS should still give some profit or at least cover the fuel costs) Setting up a POS and maintaining it is way more work than setting up a Siphon. The Proportion of Work to ISK is just wrong atm.
3. Limit the ammount of Siphons that can be anchored next to a POS
4. Give people a notification that there is a Siphon, not everyone can have X Accounts with Y Alts to check every POS every day


o7
Bellathor

PS: How does this actually work for Reactions? E.g. 1 Moon has to Materials that React. So this is how the POS works:
Moon Harvester I-->Harvest Moon Material 1--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Moon Harvester II-->Harvest Moon Material 2--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Simple Reactor Array--> Producec Reaction--> Linked to Silo

So if the Siphon steals 60 of Moon Material 1 the reaction can not happen because it needs 100 of both, since the reactor is not a storageunit Moon Material 2 and the Rest of 1 are destroyed? or stored till the reactor has enough to make the reaction happen?

Huritt Otaktay
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#1516 - 2013-12-11 01:15:04 UTC
Well it seems is a private API tool that warns its user when someone is stealing from them.

It seems like a nice beta effort but the API warning tool that lets the POS owner know within an hour makes it useless to siphon since the siphon units cost so much to make & you cant scoop them back up. In fact, someone who can code should write a public notification tool so it makes siphons completely useless faster and it gets tweaked sooner.

Of coarse, being able to scoop them back up or make them dirt cheap to manufacture, would make it just fine.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1517 - 2013-12-11 01:49:56 UTC
Bellathor Fera wrote:
Did read the first 10 Pages, after that it became just to much to read for me, so probably this has been suggested already or maybe not:

How it currently works:
1 Siphon steals 60/30 of the moon goo, meaning that 2 Siphons suck a POS dry entirely.
So 2 Siphons make a load of workinghours for nothing.
Setting up a POS and maintaining it is a hassel on it's own, you need a Rorqual/JF to be more time efficent, or you use haulers, but still a Large POS needs so much fuel that one hauler is not enough.
With those Siphons people who have the POS do all the work, while the siphoning people have almost all the ISK benefits of the POS.
Does CCP expect people who own several POSes to have Alts on every single one of them to check if there is a Siphon or not? Patrol the POSes every day?

POSes are set up to generate passive income or/and safe POSes for Supers and Carebears. They fuel the production of those pretty T2 ships and so on. Is the goal to make everything more expensive? Or for people just to say F**** it I'm not going to POS anything anymore?

As is maintaining 1 POS is a hassel already, maintaining several POS is even worse, but with those Siphons who can neglect you any sort of income it has become just an annoying task of double checking every POS every hour or so.

In general I think the Siphons are not a bad Idea, but the balance is just wrong! I don't mind people stealing a few m³ of MoonGoo from me if the put effort in it, but the current System is just spitting in the face of every single POS owner.

My Suggestion:

1. Change the fixed amount stolen to a percentage (that way the POS is not sucked dry completly)
2. The precentage should be somewhere around 20-30% at the max. (POS should still give some profit or at least cover the fuel costs) Setting up a POS and maintaining it is way more work than setting up a Siphon. The Proportion of Work to ISK is just wrong atm.
3. Limit the ammount of Siphons that can be anchored next to a POS
4. Give people a notification that there is a Siphon, not everyone can have X Accounts with Y Alts to check every POS every day


o7
Bellathor

PS: How does this actually work for Reactions? E.g. 1 Moon has to Materials that React. So this is how the POS works:
Moon Harvester I-->Harvest Moon Material 1--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Moon Harvester II-->Harvest Moon Material 2--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Simple Reactor Array--> Producec Reaction--> Linked to Silo

So if the Siphon steals 60 of Moon Material 1 the reaction can not happen because it needs 100 of both, since the reactor is not a storageunit Moon Material 2 and the Rest of 1 are destroyed? or stored till the reactor has enough to make the reaction happen?

The syphon's only take from the end of the line, so in your example a syphon would be taking from "Linked to silo", the end of the line.

Quote:
Huritt Otaktay
Of coarse, being able to scoop them back up or make them dirt cheap to manufacture, would make it just fine.

Risk VS reward. You put in the time to place and guard your syphon's (as a pos owner has to guard his pos). As CCP announced early in the thread the API will not give accurate information, any 3rd party application is going to get inaccurate information. It may be of some assistance to the pos owner but if the information from the API server is not correct you are not going to know if there is a syphon on your pos or not without logging in to check.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

killroy v2
Black Emperor's Spacewagon's
#1518 - 2013-12-14 18:45:29 UTC
i don't know if this has been already asked or not but would it be balance able to make it so that the mobile siphon unit destroys all that it steals?
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#1519 - 2013-12-27 01:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Maybe I am mistaken here but it would seem that there is a severe problem wiht these modules:

1. To deploy something, or loot from something you can't be cloaked.

2. Were um.... talking about steeling from a POS.. So... Yea. Pos's shoot uncloaked ships. And small turrets which can fire out to are not going to miss you. Especially since this item needs to be deployed well within range of the guns.

3. Who is going to be dumb enough to steel from a pos, in an uncloaked ship?

Conclusion:

Unless I have missed something this module is pointless as you have to be close enough and uncloaked long enough for the Pos to shoot you and kill you. While no.. the POS wont shoot the Module, it will however target and shoot your ship. meaning you are not going to have enough time to loot and warp, or deploy and warp before you die.

Making this module.... well....

Useless.

* Small turrets will lock and fire on a shuttle in less then 15 seconds.
* To properly deploy something, or open and loot something and then also warp, you need a minimum of 30-45 seconds. (To be safe a full minuet).

This is simply not possible with any pos equipped with small turrets. (and I know very very few alliance that do not put small turrets on their pos's, especially their moon poses.)

Just my 2 cents but this seems like a major oversight in development, didn't anyone bring up the question of: "What about the pos shooting the ship while it's looting/Deploying?"
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#1520 - 2013-12-27 01:32:02 UTC
Bellathor Fera wrote:
Did read the first 10 Pages, after that it became just to much to read for me, so probably this has been suggested already or maybe not:

How it currently works:
1 Siphon steals 60/30 of the moon goo, meaning that 2 Siphons suck a POS dry entirely.
So 2 Siphons make a load of workinghours for nothing.
Setting up a POS and maintaining it is a hassel on it's own, you need a Rorqual/JF to be more time efficent, or you use haulers, but still a Large POS needs so much fuel that one hauler is not enough.
With those Siphons people who have the POS do all the work, while the siphoning people have almost all the ISK benefits of the POS.
Does CCP expect people who own several POSes to have Alts on every single one of them to check if there is a Siphon or not? Patrol the POSes every day?

POSes are set up to generate passive income or/and safe POSes for Supers and Carebears. They fuel the production of those pretty T2 ships and so on. Is the goal to make everything more expensive? Or for people just to say F**** it I'm not going to POS anything anymore?

As is maintaining 1 POS is a hassel already, maintaining several POS is even worse, but with those Siphons who can neglect you any sort of income it has become just an annoying task of double checking every POS every hour or so.

In general I think the Siphons are not a bad Idea, but the balance is just wrong! I don't mind people stealing a few m³ of MoonGoo from me if the put effort in it, but the current System is just spitting in the face of every single POS owner.

My Suggestion:

1. Change the fixed amount stolen to a percentage (that way the POS is not sucked dry completly)
2. The precentage should be somewhere around 20-30% at the max. (POS should still give some profit or at least cover the fuel costs) Setting up a POS and maintaining it is way more work than setting up a Siphon. The Proportion of Work to ISK is just wrong atm.
3. Limit the ammount of Siphons that can be anchored next to a POS
4. Give people a notification that there is a Siphon, not everyone can have X Accounts with Y Alts to check every POS every day


o7
Bellathor

PS: How does this actually work for Reactions? E.g. 1 Moon has to Materials that React. So this is how the POS works:
Moon Harvester I-->Harvest Moon Material 1--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Moon Harvester II-->Harvest Moon Material 2--> linked to Simple Reactor Array
Simple Reactor Array--> Producec Reaction--> Linked to Silo

So if the Siphon steals 60 of Moon Material 1 the reaction can not happen because it needs 100 of both, since the reactor is not a storageunit Moon Material 2 and the Rest of 1 are destroyed? or stored till the reactor has enough to make the reaction happen?




Like I said above I don;t think your going to have to worry about any thefts considering a person will get popped by the small turrets before they can loot/deploy the thing.