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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1381 - 2013-10-28 15:06:00 UTC
Mister McDerp wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Dagda Morr wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays...


The simple reactants have to come from somewhere......

Only endpoints can be siphoned, so just do the simple reaction as an input to the complex, nothing will be stolen.


Fairly sure that is wrong, it will steal from the simple reaction as it is "unloading" into the silo.

Fairly sure you need to read the devblog again and understand how the system works.

Nyan
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1382 - 2013-10-28 16:18:51 UTC
Yeep wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll


Something can be ****** for everyone while still being significantly more ****** for you than it is for me.

Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1383 - 2013-10-28 16:40:24 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances.

Cause they are the ones that live in the space where their moons are~~~

Nyan
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1384 - 2013-10-28 20:05:00 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:

*wonders when I became mythological..does this mean I get to use Zeus's thunderbolt?

go wander around lowsec for a few jumps and you will find this mythological guy isn't as rare as you imply

How many dyspro moons are held by small lowsec entities? How many dyspro moons are held by the larger entities? What about other R64's? Yeah, exactly.

Many small entities do indeed run complex reactions in lowsec, but those aren't affected by these particular siphons. If and when siphons are introduced that do have an effect on reaction arrays, then those siphons can be adjusted as necessary.

If you think people are going to siphon R8 moons held by the little guy instead of siphoning R64 moons held by the big guys, you need to have your head examined.

Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances.

Cause they are the ones that live in the space where their moons are~~~

Big smile Truly, their concern for the little guy is touching.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1385 - 2013-10-28 21:25:27 UTC
Keep it up guys, the goons are terrified

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1386 - 2013-10-28 21:42:49 UTC
Dagda Morr wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.

And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.


I don't think you know much about lowsec or null - there are plenty of small groups mining a bit of cadmium here or mercury there making a few hundred mil per tower. Big entities don't care abou those moons - the effort to take and hold them is not worth it.
You also have those guys that buy raw mins on buy orders, react it to add value and sell to sell orders in Jita - this is the prime way small to medium sized independant corps make money. Big groups cannot bear to shoot more POS's so ignore these towers.

However

Siphons in their current incarnation will allow large, organised groups to make swathes of low and npc null utterly worthless for this type of activity. Bearing in mind how much the cfc spent on grifing miners and jita, the trivial cost and small size of these units are made for spamming every reaction tower or mining tower in lowsec and npc null. We will likely take a bit of a hit but we are just going to organise to sweep our towers - we'll do it even though we hate it becasue it will drive up the profit for us to spend on making other people cry.

Siphons are not bad - we don't need a limit on them, they just need to be bigger and cost a bit more. When you can fill a blockade runner with a hundred for just a billion and shutdown a POS-based income in a constellation solo, ccp need to have a look if this is really what they want or intend.

Nullsec will adapt - the guys "intended" to be hurt by this will adapt, and they will make a point of abusing it until its nerfed just for the smug satisfaction of being right.


I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1387 - 2013-10-28 21:53:42 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:


I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)

I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. Roll
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1388 - 2013-10-28 23:23:16 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
So tell me, what incentive does Joe Schmoe have to pop a syphon, when it lets him take a resource his alliance was never going to share with him in the first place.


Why am I not surprised a TriumvirateDOT guy is posting this?

Why am I not surprised a Goonswarm FEDERATION guy is trying to make some Ad Hominem attack?


First of all, no one gives a shit what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque.

If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said.

The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do.

Free will bro. Embrace it. Blink


Demands we patrol and watch our space, outsources living in his space to renters. Claims moons are passive AFK income, demands passive AFK module to grief them. Has bare facts pointed out to him, demands ISD stop Goons trolling him. Yup Marlona Sky, Cognitive Dissonance is your real name.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1389 - 2013-10-29 01:17:38 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:

First of all, no one gives a shit what kind of fancy-pants Latin name an insult qualifies as. Secondly, in this case, it's entirely based on fact--Triumvirate was, like the original NC and others, corrupt and financially opaque.

If you'd like to submit that Goonswarm Federation is "just as bad" you'll have to somehow get rid of our API-based finance spreadsheets that are public and convince everyone that we don't make money so that people can have fun. I'm sure you'll do a good job of that Marlona, just like you've done a good job convincing me that the siphons are not in fact going to be used precisely as every GSF/CFC/reasonably intelligent person in this thread has said.

The fact you guys rely so heavily on API is why you guys are furious about having to actually have eyes out in your space to watch for the siphons. What can I say, but perhaps you guys should undock and go check them on your own initiative instead of waiting for some API finance team telling you what to do.

Free will bro. Embrace it. Blink

Demands we patrol and watch our space, outsources living in his space to renters. Claims moons are passive AFK income, demands passive AFK module to grief them. Has bare facts pointed out to him, demands ISD stop Goons trolling him. Yup Marlona Sky, Cognitive Dissonance is your real name.

As long as the renters are patroling and watching the space, what is the problem?

Since they prioneered the afk pvp concept, why bother. They also probably learned from Pandemic "our supers, so many some don't even have subscriptions anymore" Legion.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
NinjaTurtle
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1390 - 2013-10-29 04:25:35 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaTurtle
The griefing potential is there and it seems super cool.
I just don't get why you'd design them to allow more than one on a single pos AND have them pull a flat value instead of a percentage. Does that really not seem broken?

If you're going to allow more than one they need to NOT pull the entire moon miner's output once you've anchored two of them...
(In the instance of say a straight mining tower)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1391 - 2013-10-29 05:18:38 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:


I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)

I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. Roll
And of course because we don't know if XYZ corp with 1 R32 is aligned with PL or Goons we need to take it out as well, just in case or simply because it is easy as they are going to be soft targets due to limited numbers to defend their pos's.
Meanwhile, those with the most to lose sit back and begin to count the profits as they DON'T have moons in lowsec AND DO have the ability to protect their operations.

Screw it all lets just stick to syphoning pos's in lowsec and npc nul, they are much easier to hit than those 30+ jumps into hostile nulsec (where the major isk is made)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1392 - 2013-10-29 05:23:04 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:


I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)

I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. Roll
And of course because we don't know if XYZ corp with 1 R32 is aligned with PL or Goons we need to take it out as well, just in case or simply because it is easy as they are going to be soft targets due to limited numbers to defend their pos's.
Meanwhile, those with the most to lose sit back and begin to count the profits as they DON'T have moons in lowsec AND DO have the ability to protect their operations.

Screw it all lets just stick to syphoning pos's in lowsec and npc nul, they are much easier to hit than those 30+ jumps into hostile nulsec (where the major isk is made)

The blue donut is pretty deep and can be annoying to get to the corners of...

However, CCP has given you the new gate jumping animation, which you will get to watch many times over !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1393 - 2013-10-29 08:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:


I have said it several times. Banning syphons from lowsec means problem solved for little alliances. Rebalance the moongoo in lowsec in case there is any problem (but it shouldn't be)

I agree, It is important to protect the lowsec R32 and R64 assets of small entities like pandemic legion. Roll
And of course because we don't know if XYZ corp with 1 R32 is aligned with PL or Goons we need to take it out as well, just in case or simply because it is easy as they are going to be soft targets due to limited numbers to defend their pos's.
Meanwhile, those with the most to lose sit back and begin to count the profits as they DON'T have moons in lowsec AND DO have the ability to protect their operations.

Screw it all lets just stick to syphoning pos's in lowsec and npc nul, they are much easier to hit than those 30+ jumps into hostile nulsec (where the major isk is made)

The blue donut is pretty deep and can be annoying to get to the corners of...

However, CCP has given you the new gate jumping animation, which you will get to watch many times over !
Nope, I like most others simply won't waste my time. Spending time in nul looking for a fight once in a while is ok but going there to sit and watch isk simply go boom for nothing is not my idea of fun. 10mil isk at a time doesn't sound much but lose 10 or 15 of them it starts to add up. Even if I did successfully manage to syphon enough to make the risk and time spent viable, I have no way of moving it out of nul to try and sell it. Could use a Blockade runner but putting up 10 syphon's then hanging around for 24hrs hoping no-one finds them ( or emptying them every few hours, LOL) so you can collect your harvest?? Pfff, I can think of many other things I'd rather do (having a good tooth pulled comes to mind)

Goons are on a big win with syphon's for now, enjoy it.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Dagda Morr
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#1394 - 2013-10-29 09:40:36 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:

*wonders when I became mythological..does this mean I get to use Zeus's thunderbolt?

go wander around lowsec for a few jumps and you will find this mythological guy isn't as rare as you imply

How many dyspro moons are held by small lowsec entities? How many dyspro moons are held by the larger entities? What about other R64's? Yeah, exactly.

Many small entities do indeed run complex reactions in lowsec, but those aren't affected by these particular siphons. If and when siphons are introduced that do have an effect on reaction arrays, then those siphons can be adjusted as necessary.

If you think people are going to siphon R8 moons held by the little guy instead of siphoning R64 moons held by the big guys, you need to have your head examined.

Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Yup. And this is exactly why this change will end up benefiting the power bloc alliances.

Cause they are the ones that live in the space where their moons are~~~

Big smile Truly, their concern for the little guy is touching.


You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.

You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,

I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1395 - 2013-10-29 11:10:26 UTC
Dagda Morr wrote:
You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.

You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,

I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable.

Sometimes, some must suffer so that goons can be inconvenienced.

Luckily, as forum warriors, it won't be you.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1396 - 2013-10-29 13:20:55 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Dagda Morr wrote:
You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.

You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,

I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable.

Sometimes, some must suffer so that goons can be inconvenienced.

Luckily, as forum warriors, it won't be you.
Funny really, as a goon forum rep your honestly not a very good troll are you. Closest you came to success was the "forum warriors" comment but as you have as many posts in this thread as those you are trying to ridicule you have become one.
As you are alone here it should be forgiven; Everyone knows goons work best in groups of 1000 or more.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1397 - 2013-10-29 13:41:54 UTC
One might be surprised to see i'm refreshing this while mining here in my blue donut

soon i will be refreshing the next hot topic while doing some structure dropping

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon
#1398 - 2013-10-29 15:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: TimNeilson
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Dagda Morr wrote:
You are completely detatched from reality - plenty of small entities run simple reactions in low and NPC space all the time. Just becasue you are incredibly poorly informed and desperate to join on a bandwagon does not make what you say true.

You are right that nobody cares about R8 moons - but you should have a look at what cadmium, caesium and chromium moons ect are worth if you mine them. Plenty of small and medium sized groups hold these - and they run simple reactions to feed complex reactions since the margins on buying simple mats to react is so slim it's not worthwhile,

I am sure that R64s held by the big guys will get siphoned, but they are going to be emptied and popped on such a regular basis that it's goign to become worthless dropping them. At the same time the big guys are going to use these to grief everyone and anyone they can - simply as revenge for being made to do ****** sweeps of their moons to remove siphons. The best way to demonstrate the stupidy of a mechanic is to take it to the nth degree till the entire player base is screaming about how horrid it is. If it makes people angry and creates forum tears it will be worth the money spent - maybe the mechanic will be revisited then and made workable.

Sometimes, some must suffer so that goons can be inconvenienced.

Luckily, as forum warriors, it won't be you.
Funny really, as a goon forum rep your honestly not a very good troll are you. Closest you came to success was the "forum warriors" comment but as you have as many posts in this thread as those you are trying to ridicule you have become one.
As you are alone here it should be forgiven; Everyone knows goons work best in groups of 1000 or more.


Why would he waste his good posts here on eve-o when he could be posting them on gf.cahahahahahahahaha
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1399 - 2013-10-29 18:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Dagda Morr wrote:
*snip*


Honestly I wouldn't worry about your cadmium or caesium moons. Running the numbers as they currently are, it would take 2+ days of operation just for a single siphon to break even. No one's going to bother, at least not after the initial rush to try the new Rubicon features wears off.

Siphoning dyspro moons, on the other hand, becomes profitable after a matter of hours. And that's on a per siphon basis, you can make a pretty considerable bank from siphoning a few dyspro moons for just under a day. With a handful of siphons on the right moons, you could easily clear a few hundred mil a day, and that assumes regular loss of siphon units.

And if what the goons say is true about prices going up, well...Cool

Simply put, low value lowsec moons won't be targeted, at least after the initial wave wears off because they won't be worth it. Dyspro, Prom, and Neo moon holders need to worry. Complex reactions can't be hit by siphons. For everyone else, no one will bother.
Narffy
Dominus Imperium
#1400 - 2013-10-29 22:36:23 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Dagda Morr wrote:
*snip*


Honestly I wouldn't worry about your cadmium or caesium moons. Running the numbers as they currently are, it would take 2+ days of operation just for a single siphon to break even. No one's going to bother, at least not after the initial rush to try the new Rubicon features wears off.

Siphoning dyspro moons, on the other hand, becomes profitable after a matter of hours. And that's on a per siphon basis, you can make a pretty considerable bank from siphoning a few dyspro moons for just under a day. With a handful of siphons on the right moons, you could easily clear a few hundred mil a day, and that assumes regular loss of siphon units.

And if what the goons say is true about prices going up, well...Cool

Simply put, low value lowsec moons won't be targeted, at least after the initial wave wears off because they won't be worth it. Dyspro, Prom, and Neo moon holders need to worry. Complex reactions can't be hit by siphons. For everyone else, no one will bother.


You're assuming people will be using siphons to make isk. They're really going to be used for griefing and the easiest targets by a large margin are smaller lowsec corps. I can easily afford to buy thousands of siphons just to screw with people. However, I probably don't need to bother beings Goons have trillions of isk to spend on assaulting lowsec.

For lowsec corps to run the complex reactions, simple reactions must first be run by someone and you can't run an entire chain at a single POS.