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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Author
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1201 - 2013-10-21 18:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
And finally, because I ran out of characters:



  • You don't seem to understand economics very well. People aren't talking about ideal scenarios in which you are able to loot all the goo scraped by a siphon (obviously this will often be impossible or even undesired). What people are talking about with regard to a given price increase is the portion of moon goo destroyed by the siphons as part of their normal operation. If half the bottleneck moons in EVE are being siphoned half of the time, and a fixed percentage of that material just evaporates rather than making it to market in the hands of the rightful owner or the thief, then supply has gone down. Period. Given the same demand, reduced supply means prices go up.



If you want a dirsuptive activity for small gangs, first you need there to be an activity going on to be disrupted, and secondly that activity needs to be disruptable. Just fixing that state of affairs in nullsec would be a great start: currently the only really disruptable activity is ratting and-- to an extent-- travel. I say "to an extent" because CCP's game mechanics make it very difficult to prevent even that, since plenty of ships are extremely difficult to prevent traveling through gates and JBs (covops and nullfied T3s are extremely hard to catch, with covert T3s being nigh-impossible to stop if fitted correctly).

The warp speed changes may even out the playing field somewhat with regard to how difficult it is to catch ratters, but I don't have super high hopes for it-- often the only viable way to nail ratters who don't want to be caught is through awoxing or at least by having a spy character in their alliance with which to watch their every move... there's very few non-underhanded ways to stop people from ratting aligned, for example.

Encouraging small-gang conflict in nullsec is a daunting task, largely because the raiding party is inherently at a large disadvantage compared to the residents when it comes to numbers. Because EVE is a game with serious consequences for death, people aren't tempted to jump into a skirmish over some small, low-value objective. This has two results: most of the time, the response to a roaming solo player or small gang consists of the handful of people in a given system docking up or hiding in POS while they wait for the marauders to pass through. This denies the roaming party any of the fights they're looking for, encouraging them to leave and seek fights elsewhere, and is the logical thing to do if you don't want to lose your ship.

The other thing that happens (if the roaming party stays for too long, and irritates too many people by interrupting their ratting) is that people will form a gang five to ten times the size of the roaming gang and will attempt to kill them or make them leave / log out. This scenario usually results in no fights as well, since the marauders don't want to lose their ships either and have no intentions of fighting ten battlecruisers, four recons, three logistics and a swarm of frigate-sized tacklers in their three Vagabonds. If the roamers are on a casual cruiser roam or are some Blink-sponsored elite PvPers they may hang around and suicide into a defense fleet for jollies, but this isn't typical.

Still, if one were to design some kind of small fixed objectives for small gangs to go after, they should be designed with a few things in mind:

  • The objectives should not be high-stakes (since this would encourage a proportionate response from residents)-- something that caused a temporary, mild inconvenience to the residents of that specific system, or perhaps that system and it's adjacent systems-- would be ideal.

  • The objectives and their status should be immediately identifiable. Objectives should be like a faction warfare plex, or a minor facility in PS2: everyone in system should be able to see the objective on their screens, as well as the status of that objective so that it's obvious when it's being contested. Currently, when trying to start small gang fights in nullsec you usually camp a gate, jump bridge, or station undock. This forces people to deal with your camp: rumor of your activities eventually trickles into the right channels and people will eventually respond (usually with more force than you can handle, but hey, at least there's a chance to shoot at stuff). Siphons are exactly the opposite of this: they're ideally carried and placed by non-combat ships (a blockade runner will be ideal), there are no indications of any kind when they've been placed, and there's little to no incentive to try and create a fight out of a placed siphon EVEN WHEN YOU'VE DISCOVERED IT. The whole mechanic is fundamentally asocial.


More to follow...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1202 - 2013-10-21 18:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Jimmy Farrere wrote:
Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops.

How are you going to empty them?
Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two?
Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Orakkus
Southern Cross Monopoly
Flying Dangerous
#1203 - 2013-10-21 18:40:44 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


I spent the weekend pondering this change. Initially, I wasn't real keen on it, but it has grown one me. Reducing the waste factor will definately not be so destructive to the moon goo economy, so I think that will be a positive aspect. As far as the limit goes, I also wasn't a big fan, but I think it is more doable than I previously thought. Perhaps, making it more 10-20 might be a better spread.

I do have a couple suggestions, ones that probably most people won't like:

1. This is something that would be ideal to attach a mini-game to. Something to where the timing of the mini-game puts it at some risk to POS modules. Not sure if the Hacking skillset should be used, but it might be a nice PVP application of the skill. A change of that nature would a.) Limit this size of ship used for dropping of Siphons (and thus cargo space) and b.) appropriately increase the risk of putting a siphon on a POS.

2. I would like a faster cycle time, and higher pull rate. But in exchange for that, there has to be more interaction with the Siphon to keep it going. I am agreeing with some who have posted that this shouldn't be a "passive" activity. It should require some maintenance of some sort, either a fuel bay for a quick 6-8 hours run or a mini-game that requires you to recalibrate the siphon, something of that nature.

Pretty sure most people will hate my thoughts on that, but I think it would improve the "game" aspect of it as well as make it an actual tool.. not a "fire and forget" structure module.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1204 - 2013-10-21 18:45:00 UTC
Quote:


  • There's already room for small gangs to conduct economic warfare in hostile space. This is done by hunting and killing ratters, industrialists, random travelers, and basically anything else that floats through space alone or in small numbers. It can also be accomplished by doing nasty things like relisting: buying up in-demand commodities in nullsec stations (in their entirety where possible) and re-listing them at higher prices, forcing people to overpay for their ships and gear and funneling that profit into your own wallet.

  • Nobody is going to hang around for days at a time in hopes of possibly catching some hostile in a blockade runner that's come to loot a siphon: it's absolutely not worth doing, since you can easily retrieve your stuff from the siphon and then destroy it rather than spending ~48 hours in a Sabre poopsocking a structure, hoping that you'll be watching the screen at the exact moment some fool decloaks their hauler for 3 seconds to do a drive-by pickup. It's seriously not going to happen. The spergiest of spergs can sometimes be motivated to camp things for days at a time in hopes of a cap or supercap kill, but nobody is going to bother to do so over a possible Prowler kill.

  • Have you ever even been to nullsec? Let me give you a clue: your average nullsec resident is not very situationally aware. Someone running around planting siphons is just one more hostile drifting through a region: ratters will safe up momentarily until you leave, then go back to ratting. I've moved supercaps through null without being noticed, to think this won't be possible with a blockade runner dropping modules that leave no overt traces is ridiculous.

  • This siphon proposal doesn't involve any "gameplay" at all: your use of that term in this discussion is overly-generous to CCP. Pushing a module out of your ship isn't gameplay any more than anchoring a drag bubble is. It's the stuff that happens as a result of anchoring a drag bubble that constitutes gameplay: siphons make no such promises.

You are making quite a few incorrect assumptions, including my level of experience with large null sec groups.

* All true, although you missed several good examples. To address the few you did list... more traffic means more targets and the simple need to empty the siphons and move those stolen goods means that there will be more traffic moving through to shoot at. Also your example to relist items in a station (quite profitable by the way) requires having an alt already docked in that station when it changes hands... hardly a mechanic that can enjoy widespread use by the masses.

* Of course you'll take your stuff out and blow up the siphon. However the person that deployed it doesn't know that. Unless he sends out a scout to check all of his siphons first, he'll be trying to sneak a nice crunchy Blockade Runner into your systems every day or two.

* Some area's have pretty bad security, you are correct... although most at least try to tighten things up in a system with a valuable moon. The nice thing is siphons are extremely easy to detect, so even those "safed up" ratters will be hard pressed NOT to notice a siphon in system as they do their anoms. Even in the worst alliances, usually someone will at least report it even if they don't want to take a few minutes and pop it themselves.

* Correct, a siphon doesn't promote as much physical combat as a bubble. However its use does mean fairly frequent visits by those using them... often needing to go through the aforementioned bubble. And if they are successful they get to wage a little economic warfare, competing in an area (Moo goo) that was formerly out of their reach. Not seeing a downside there.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1205 - 2013-10-21 18:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ganthrithor wrote:
And finally, because I ran out of characters:



  • You don't seem to understand economics very well. People aren't talking about ideal scenarios in which you are able to loot all the goo scraped by a siphon (obviously this will often be impossible or even undesired). What people are talking about with regard to a given price increase is the portion of moon goo destroyed by the siphons as part of their normal operation. If half the bottleneck moons in EVE are being siphoned half of the time, and a fixed percentage of that material just evaporates rather than making it to market in the hands of the rightful owner or the thief, then supply has gone down. Period. Given the same demand, reduced supply means prices go up.


Indeed it does, as I have pointed out myself. You'll noticed I haven't mentioned goo that you actually manage to get out of your siphons... that's pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Half the moons, half the time.

Okay, that means that on that particular flavor of moo goo your maximum effect is a 5% reduction in supply... not 20% as has been thrown around.

Still good for you, but hardly earth shaking. Especially when you consider the effort invested to achieve that result on a long term basis. Smile

Frankly, you'll be hard pressed to even achieve this but I don't discount your being able to pull it off.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1206 - 2013-10-21 18:51:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jimmy Farrere wrote:
Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops.

How are you going to empty them?
Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two?
Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home?


You think people will be worried about getting the goo out? It's a griefing mechanic, not a moneymaking scheme.

'So you like running that POS? I'm a US player and you're an EU, every night when you go to bed I'll double siphon your tower. Look at the great PvP this is causing.'

And FYI in the above scenario, if the siphon is looted before you wake up/get home from school or work then you lose 33% / 66% of your days output, not 5%.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1207 - 2013-10-21 18:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay".

You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#1208 - 2013-10-21 18:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranamar
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


I'm late to the party, so I'm sure other people have jumped on this, but I don't think this will solve the one thing that I find problematic about it, which is that the API will now be unreliable.

Furthermore, I feel like an unreliable API is also an amazing opportunity for bugs to show up around edge cases. For example, suppose someone logs on and checks their POS inventory (which, AIUI as not a POS person can be done remotely) and then logs off again, with a siphon still attached. What will the API report? Someone will have seen the current state of the POSes, but the API doesn't actually know that. On the other hand, since they have seen them, maybe they're okay with the siphon being there or can't get to it at the moment or whatever. I'd expect the API to start reporting the correct numbers, but I'm pretty sure the API wouldn't know the ingame interface has been checked. What is your answer for what *should* happen in that case?

Also, if the game is reporting truthfully and the API is lying, I feel like this is a huge incentive for people to do questionably-allowed stuff like cache scraping. As a result, I think you should strongly consider letting the API key tell the truth and expecting a siphon alarm to be built into EVE-Reactor and the like within a week. Someone still has to show up to deal with the siphon once it's attached, and that's going to be dependent on the vagaries of the players' schedules as much as anything else.

ETA: also, a limit on siphons dropped in space at once seems like it could be trivially gamed by throwing characters which are otherwise cyno alts at the problem.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1209 - 2013-10-21 19:03:18 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
And finally, because I ran out of characters:



  • You don't seem to understand economics very well. People aren't talking about ideal scenarios in which you are able to loot all the goo scraped by a siphon (obviously this will often be impossible or even undesired). What people are talking about with regard to a given price increase is the portion of moon goo destroyed by the siphons as part of their normal operation. If half the bottleneck moons in EVE are being siphoned half of the time, and a fixed percentage of that material just evaporates rather than making it to market in the hands of the rightful owner or the thief, then supply has gone down. Period. Given the same demand, reduced supply means prices go up.




Sadly, CCP has handed your group even more riches.
I really don't know if they devised this siphon business in collaboration with you, or to stop you.
Doesn't really matter, goons get richer with this system.

Moon goo prices go higher, which means all T2 items get pricer, meaning more of the Eve economy is funneled through the hands of those that control the bulk of the moon goo, specifically the null sec cartels. You guys might have less product to sell, but your overall income won't be affected. That actually helps you, as it means less trips hauling product to market.

And secondly, on a somewhat on an indirect view, if you goons manage to wipe out a larger percentage of non-cartel controlled moon goo than the percentage of cartel controlled moon goo is destroyed, you win even further, as your remaining product represents a larger share of the overall pool.

I can't imagine CCP was so dumb to NOT recognize that the cartels have the critical mass of pilots able to mitigate the majority of the damage done to their production, while smaller entities, simply do not.

A group of 20,000 can more easily watch 2000 moons, than a group of 100 can watch 10, especially across multiple time zones.

Once again, CCP pushes the game further down the path of null sec cartels online.

CCP, wake up. Call it what is is. Goons have won Eve.
Now acknowledge that, then blow the whole thing up.
Build game mechanics that actually limit their strengths, namely the blob, and out of game tools.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1210 - 2013-10-21 19:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jimmy Farrere wrote:
Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops.

How are you going to empty them?
Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two?
Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home?


You act like moving a blockade runner around is some kind of magic trick... it's not hard to move a cloaking ship around, even through gatecamps (if there are any). Not to mention the fact that nobody is going to form a gatecamp just to catch your blockade runner... it's not like you're a roaming HAC gang-- you're not going to attract much attention in your solo, invisible spaceship.

Furthermore, it's not unheard of at all to covert-bridge blockade runners around when necessary. The people I play with do it fairly frequently to move fuel around: there's no reason you couldn't scoop up some moongoo on the return trip...

Abdiel Kavash wrote:
You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay".


This. "But guys, if you just stay logged in for two to three days with the right character watchlisted and poopsock this siphon module, you might get a BR kill!"

Fantastic.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:
You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill.


Amongst other things...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1211 - 2013-10-21 19:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Jimmy Farrere wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jimmy Farrere wrote:
Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops.

How are you going to empty them?
Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two?
Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home?


You think people will be worried about getting the goo out? It's a griefing mechanic, not a moneymaking scheme.

'So you like running that POS? I'm a US player and you're an EU, every night when you go to bed I'll double siphon your tower. Look at the great PvP this is causing.'

And FYI in the above scenario, if the siphon is looted before you wake up/get home from school or work then you lose 33% / 66% of your days output, not 5%.

For that day yes, and then it stops working until you come and empty it. This is the part people tend to forget about.

You MUST return and empty it every day or so otherwise, on that one tower the most damage you can hope to do is 20% (as the owner will grab the rest back if he finds it first). That's one tower, 20% loss for 1 or 2 days output.

That's it until you trot yourself back out there and empty it.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1212 - 2013-10-21 19:26:24 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay".

You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill.

Actually, in a system with any kind of population, you don't.

Again, you forget that these are extremely easy to detect by anyone Dscanning or probing in that system.

So unless your corp/alliance/blues are complete dicks the POS owner doesn't have to do anymore than he normally does... unless it's in a secluded system. Which encourages you to live where your wealth is.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1213 - 2013-10-21 19:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ganthrithor wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Jimmy Farrere wrote:
Oh yeah, and after reading that gumpf I nearly forgot that I came here to request again that if nothing else is changed at least make these things much, much bigger. The only chance of these creating any kind of PvP content is if you can't drop a shedload of them from a interceptor, bomber or cov-ops.

How are you going to empty them?
Are you going to arrange a covert cyno and bridge into every system that needs a siphon emptied every day or two?
Or do you feel confident that your Blockade Runner can safely navigate from high end moon goo system to high end moon goo system (and their accompanying bubble camps) to retrieve it all and return home?


You act like moving a blockade runner around is some kind of magic trick... it's not hard to move a cloaking ship around, even through gatecamps (if there are any). Not to mention the fact that nobody is going to form a gatecamp just to catch your blockade runner... it's not like you're a roaming HAC gang-- you're not going to attract much attention in your solo, invisible spaceship.

Furthermore, it's not unheard of at all to covert-bridge blockade runners around when necessary. The people I play with do it fairly frequently to move fuel around: there's no reason you couldn't scoop up some moongoo on the return trip...

Abdiel Kavash wrote:
You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay".


This. "But guys, if you just stay logged in for two to three days with the right character watchlisted and poopsock this siphon module, you might get a BR kill!"

Fantastic.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:
You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill.


Amongst other things...

I know exactly how difficult it is to move a Blockade Runner through hostile null. I do it on a regular basis.

I also know how easy it is to catch one.

Also, if you're covert cynoing POS fuel around you really aren't likely to be in a position to pick up materials from a siphon you have deployed in hostile space very often.Smile

So basically what you are saying is that you leave your moo goo systems undefended at all times.

Good to know. Blink

When you start finding siphons on a regular basis in those systems you might consider changing that policy. Most everyone else is going to. We both know all you need is a scout, no need for everyone in system to sit on the bubble.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1214 - 2013-10-21 19:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Ranger 1 wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay".

You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill.

Actually, in a system with any kind of population, you don't.

Again, you forget that these are extremely easy to detect by anyone Dscanning or probing in that system.

So unless your corp/alliance/blues are complete dicks the POS owner doesn't have to do anymore than he normally does... unless it's in a secluded system. Which encourages you to live where your wealth is.

However, the distribution of systems with valuable moons is not correlated with the distributions of systems that are worthwhile sticking in for longer periods of time. Yes, in the few good ratting systems or trade hubs that actually have good moons in them, this will be less of an issue. But the majority of moons still need to be checked manually.

Do you want people to live in a majority of space? Then make a majority of space worth living in.

Do you want alliances to release moons outside of their territory to smaller entities? Do it in a way that doesn't involve stabbing POS managers in the face with a stick. This is just as dumb idea as nerfing highsec to force people to move to low/nullsec. And will have the same results. (smaller groups won't be able to cope and quit, large groups will take over in spite of the stupid mechanics.)



Ranger 1 wrote:
When you start finding siphons on a regular basis in those systems you might consider changing that policy. Most everyone else is going to. We both know all you need is a scout, no need for everyone in system to sit on the bubble.

Yes, all you do is one guy per system with a POS staring in the depths of space for 24 hours a day in hopes that maybe one day someone will come in a covops and drop a siphon. Exciting example of emergent gameplay. I'm pretty sure I'd rather go grind an IHUB for an hour.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1215 - 2013-10-21 19:42:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Ranger 1 wrote:
Also, if you're covert cynoing POS fuel around you really aren't likely to be in a position to pick up materials from a siphon you have deployed in hostile space very often.Smile

So basically what you are saying is that you leave your moo goo systems undefended at all times.

Good to know. Blink


I didn't say it was POS fuel, friend.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1216 - 2013-10-21 19:44:54 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
You're still trying to argue that killing a lone blockade runner is somehow resembling small gang PvP.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room which is forcing POS monitors to log in to the game every hour 24/7 to check for the damn things. That is, log in, see clear overview, log out. Repeat every hour, every day, every week. Regardless of whether there's someone actually trying to siphon you or not. Don't even try calling that "gameplay".

You also, although completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, seem to be unaware of the Marketing skill.

Actually, in a system with any kind of population, you don't.

Again, you forget that these are extremely easy to detect by anyone Dscanning or probing in that system.

So unless your corp/alliance/blues are complete dicks the POS owner doesn't have to do anymore than he normally does... unless it's in a secluded system. Which encourages you to live where your wealth is.

However, the distribution of systems with valuable moons is not correlated with the distributions of systems that are worthwhile sticking in for longer periods of time. Yes, in the few good ratting systems or trade hubs that actually have good moons in them, this will be less of an issue. But the majority of moons still need to be checked manually.

Do you want people to live in a majority of space? Then make a majority of space worth living in.

Do you want alliances to release moons outside of their territory to smaller entities? Do it in a way that doesn't involve stabbing POS managers in the face with a stick. This is just as dumb idea as nerfing highsec to force people to move to low/nullsec. And will have the same results. (smaller groups won't be able to cope and quit, large groups will take over in spite of the stupid mechanics.)

I don't really consider it an unreasonable game mechanic to make it desirable to inhabit the space that is a strong revenue stream for your corp. Whether that by yourself, or with renters that monitor your towers for siphons as part of the arrangement, or by giving control of that moon to the renters and taking that into consideration in their rental payment.

Any way you slice it, it's an incentive to live in the space that generates the revenue.

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Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1217 - 2013-10-21 19:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Ranger 1 wrote:
I don't really consider it an unreasonable game mechanic to make it desirable to inhabit the space that is a strong revenue stream for your corp. Whether that by yourself, or with renters that monitor your towers for siphons as part of the arrangement, or by giving control of that moon to the renters and taking that into consideration in their rental payment.

Any way you slice it, it's an incentive to live in the space that generates the revenue.

Except that there's nothing to be gained for the individual(s) forced to live in the space. The siphon watch can be easily done with an alt, and real members will be much better off living in good space. This is not an incentive for an individual to move to the system with a POS. This is only a punishment for corps that don't keep one character, whether active or not, in the system.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1218 - 2013-10-21 19:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Ranger 1 wrote:

I don't really consider it an unreasonable game mechanic to make it desirable to inhabit the space that is a strong revenue stream for your corp. Whether that by yourself, or with renters that monitor your towers for siphons as part of the arrangement, or by giving control of that moon to the renters and taking that into consideration in their rental payment.

Any way you slice it, it's an incentive to live in the space that generates the revenue.


Well then for consistency's sake they should probably make it so that I can steal / destroy a portion of your PI goods whenever you're not looking at the PI screen. Wait, no, that wouldn't be equivalent since you can open the PI screen and check it from anywhere. How about we make it so that I can take a portion of your assets from your Jita alt whenever you're not docked in 4-4 instead. Clearly it's justified, because I had to go to all the effort of moving my covert/nullified T3 to Jita, and you couldn't even be bothered to log in your Jita alt to watch your hangar door, so you had it coming to you.

Oh wait, we can't implement that yet: we haven't figured out a way to make the API pretend that your frozen corpse collection is still there...
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1219 - 2013-10-21 19:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Do you want an example of an incentive to live in all of your alliance's space? Tie the IHUB upgrade anomalies/complexes to an entire constellation or even a region (obviously constrained by your sovereignty). That way, instead of in the system, a completed anomaly respawns in a random system within the constellation. Systems which are not populated will accumulate many anomalies (and high-quality anomalies, regardless of their individual truesec) over time, giving an incentive for people to go there and rat. Since individual systems will eventually run out of sites, ratters have to move from one system to another. This gives an opportunity for an enemy fleet to catch them on gates, which in turn incentivizes home defense fleet to chase them out.

This is providing an incentive. The siphon, as it currently stands, is just a slap across the face if you dare to play the game "wrong".
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1220 - 2013-10-21 20:20:52 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Do you want an example of an incentive to live in all of your alliance's space? Tie the IHUB upgrade anomalies/complexes to an entire constellation or even a region (obviously constrained by your sovereignty). That way, instead of in the system, a completed anomaly respawns in a random system within the constellation. Systems which are not populated will accumulate many anomalies (and high-quality anomalies, regardless of their individual truesec) over time, giving an incentive for people to go there and rat. Since individual systems will eventually run out of sites, ratters have to move from one system to another. This gives an opportunity for an enemy fleet to catch them on gates, which in turn incentivizes home defense fleet to chase them out.

This is providing an incentive. The siphon, as it currently stands, is just a slap across the face if you dare to play the game "wrong".

What you propose is an excellent incentive, one (among others) that I hope to see as Null is systematically revamped.

Compared to what you propose the siphon mechanic is a relatively minor incentive, but it is an incentive none-the-less. They are not mutually exclusive.

The overall goal is to see people living in, fighting over, stealing from, and trying to travel through area's of space that provide revenue, as opposed to controlling vast tracts of virtually uninhabited space.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.