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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1141 - 2013-10-20 20:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Flames
Falin Whalen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned

•Shooting at stationary structures is boring

•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring

◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

•Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it

◦See: everything involving starbases.


From this Dev Blog.

Apparently they have forgotten the lessons learned.

quoting just to make a dev read this again!
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1142 - 2013-10-20 21:54:33 UTC
Holy cocks, i forgot all about that Greyscale quote. Nice grab.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Ereshgikal
Wharf Crusaders
#1143 - 2013-10-20 22:17:49 UTC
Herr Esiq wrote:
It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly..



Interesting point. Since the siphon is linked to a person, I do hope it is accessible through the persons asset API, thus making it easier for the siphon owner to check amount of goodies in it.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1144 - 2013-10-20 22:21:56 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Holy cocks, i forgot all about that Greyscale quote. Nice grab.

21 Jun 2011, never forgive, never forget.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1145 - 2013-10-20 22:46:32 UTC
Ereshgikal wrote:
Herr Esiq wrote:
It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly..

Interesting point. Since the siphon is linked to a person, I do hope it is accessible through the persons asset API, thus making it easier for the siphon owner to check amount of goodies in it.

Nah it should lie to you. Go check the siphon to see what is in it or if it has been destroyed.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#1146 - 2013-10-20 23:30:36 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Stop misspelling siphons.


http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/syphon
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#1147 - 2013-10-20 23:51:48 UTC
TimNeilson wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:


No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game.


Except there's no good justification for why your poses would lie to you in the first place. And like other people have said, there's a 6 hour cache on pos status updates anyway, so the only way you would know "immediately" would be if the siphoner was unlucky and managed to place his siphon shortly before the end of that 6 hour window. Combine this with people having other things to do rather than sit in front of a computer keeping track of their poses all day for a marginal decrease in how much they'll be penalized by these things, and you get a ****** mechanic that also drags down a good one, namely the API.


A much better argument, but actually there is good justification why your POS silos would wrongly report their levels to you - because they are being tampered with by the syphons. Lol

You seem to think that we are entitled to POS silo information inherantly, and I'd challange that belief and say that actually we operated for years without it before it was included in the API, so why don't you actually justify why now it is so essential?

Sure its 'nice' to see this info while at work or wherever when you cant log into Eve but are "sitting in front of a computer keeping track of your poses all day for a marginal" improvement in their POS management efficiency... but is it really necessary or essential information? IMHO no.
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon
#1148 - 2013-10-21 00:07:00 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
TimNeilson wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:


No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game.


Except there's no good justification for why your poses would lie to you in the first place. And like other people have said, there's a 6 hour cache on pos status updates anyway, so the only way you would know "immediately" would be if the siphoner was unlucky and managed to place his siphon shortly before the end of that 6 hour window. Combine this with people having other things to do rather than sit in front of a computer keeping track of their poses all day for a marginal decrease in how much they'll be penalized by these things, and you get a ****** mechanic that also drags down a good one, namely the API.


A much better argument, but actually there is good justification why your POS silos would wrongly report their levels to you - because they are being tampered with by the syphons. Lol

You seem to think that we are entitled to POS silo information inherantly, and I'd challange that belief and say that actually we operated for years without it before it was included in the API, so why don't you actually justify why now it is so essential?

Sure its 'nice' to see this info while at work or wherever when you cant log into Eve but are "sitting in front of a computer keeping track of your poses all day for a marginal" improvement in their POS management efficiency... but is it really necessary or essential information? IMHO no.


If the information is provided, it should be accurate. I would rather have the information not be provided than have unreliable information, even though that's still a giant pain in the ass, because it accomplishes the exact same thing of "I have to go check on this **** ingame to find out the correct values." That said, either way this is a step back in terms of the API and ease of use for a feature that's already a pretty big pain in the butt to begin with if you're involved in it in any way.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1149 - 2013-10-21 00:13:49 UTC
Herr Esiq wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it?

And you can"t see the difference between a 'personal character monitor' and a 'automated alliance tool that monotors a complete empire like HAL 9000'.

You really cant can you?


Hmm, let me think about that for a moment. Yeah, no quite sure Mittens doesn't have such a tool, I mean I am sure Digi would LOVE such a tool in his never ending quest to find spies.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1150 - 2013-10-21 00:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Miner Hottie
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".

It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.

With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).

Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc...
I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.

Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake.


And so many eve online subscribers demonstrating there incredible absence of knowledge thinking POSs are easy and AFK, that POS monkeys are lazy and are pandered to by CCP. CSM actions and consequently the Devs were told here what those lazy POS monkeys' thought about that sort of attitude "I am a small portion of the eve community" note the 143 pages of comment on why CCP not fixing POS interface and mechanics and security was not good.

If CCP was to be considered to be pandering to anyone truly lazy, it would be cloaky AFKers. I mean, how little effort do they put into their gameplay? Think further, how ironic would it be if someone combined an AFK cloaky with these siphons to steal moon goo? How could that not be described as lazy gameplay?

On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it?


You are being obtuse.

• It is accepted that a moon mining POS is AFK income, as in it accrues materials while you are offline - so you are wrong.
• You assume others have no knowledge of POS managment because they disagree with your whines - you are wrong (I have ran a POS network of 15 POS solo and know the issues and pain of doing so).
• You are crying about Eve Fitting tool other API tools/data that have nothing to do with syphons and their (lack of) impact on the API - it just shows how obtuse you are being.
• You are apparently delibrately confusing Two Steps suggestions (dead horse POS rework) with supporting your own agenda about syphons - Just because POS owners (myself included) badly want a rework of the mechanics in a threadnaught about POS mechanics doesn't mean they agree with you about syphons.
• AFK Cloak whine - Stop talking rubbish about AFK cloaking laziness, you are being stupid and should go post in the relevant thread about that.

Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.


Not obtuse at all. You just don't like me knocking your points over.

*the income from POS is only earned, collected, when you get it to market, the POS accumulates materials you can sell over time. However, like any ship you undock, you must assume it can be lost at any time unless it is in a station. Before you whine at me about that, I am an accountant in real life and moon goo in a POS would not be classified as income earned on accounting grounds. As the risk and reward of the moon goo has not substantially passed to the customer.
*I linked a thread in which CCP devs didn't seem to get it, why should you? You stated you thought we were lazy. Now you say you know the pain of running POS. Which is it? Can't have it both ways.
*No, just a broad example, obtuse means open angle by the way. Marketters, station industrialists, researchers all rely on API tools, none of them are getting there ring burnt by these changes, why not? Why shouldn't the API lie to them as well?
*POS mechanics, interface and security all drive the way we interact with POS and contribute to the burn out people suffer from these things. Which CCP just decided wasn't enough without adding these unbalanced devices.
*AFK Cloaky I have no issue with the mechanic itself, I do it myself at times. What I am quite certain is that it IS NOT ACTIVE GAME PLAY you moron. It is the most completely lazy game mode ever, which you seem to think I engage in lazy gameplay when managing my POS's, which you then say you know is an issue and painful. Very confusing.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1151 - 2013-10-21 00:58:50 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:


A much better argument, but actually there is good justification why your POS silos would wrongly report their levels to you - because they are being tampered with by the syphons. Lol

so why don't you actually justify why now it is so essential?
.
Your justification is in your own post, pos siphons were not around years ago, the API was not around years ago. Now we have both.
It is not the pos siphon that is manipulating the numbers returned from the API, it is CCP manipulating the API.

How about if CCP decided alliance G***----- was to powerful so to help get rid of them, whenever 1 of their pilots enters a fight the damage his ship takes will be manipulated to show less than it actually is and the damage his weapons does will be reduced. Extreme example but basically the same thing is happening with pos's. The information you will receive is manipulated to show as wrong.


I like to think the people I pay money to are at least honest in their business dealings. I'm not talking about ingame that would be naive, everyone is a thief that's why we have 3rd party sites and applications, to be able to see who may be an awoxer or who is a corp thief, is the guy who applied to my corp the alt of a corp we are at war with, etc. CCP has openly admitted to manipulating the API information, what's to stop them doing it in other areas. Is it being done in other areas?

**I am aware these are extreme examples BUT the whole eve economy is based on you being smarter than the guy trying to rip you off, if ccp is helping the guy who is ripping you off it really unbalances things.

The API updates every 6 hours, let it give accurate information so it can be acted on. If I'm at work and can't actually login to the game I still want to be able to trust the information I am getting from the API so I can possible call someone in to act on it.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1152 - 2013-10-21 01:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
:frogsiren: Serious Question for Devs :frogsiren:

Does the siphon have to be within 50 km of the POS in order to function, or just to be deployed? In other words, can I deploy a siphon 50.1 km from a POS and have a non-functioning, but still fully deployed siphon? Such that, to the casual observer looking on dscan or just showing up on grid, it appears that a siphon is already acting upon that POS?

Thanks!
Khoul Ay'd
The Affiliation
#1153 - 2013-10-21 01:48:38 UTC
Ereshgikal wrote:
Interesting point. Since the siphon is linked to a person, I do hope it is accessible through the persons asset API, thus making it easier for the siphon owner to check amount of goodies in it.


I hope if they do this, and I hope they make it so the API lies and always says its full of R64. Big smileEvilTwisted

The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it
Benjamin Hamburg
Chaos.Theory
#1154 - 2013-10-21 01:49:23 UTC
Sure shooting a 50k hp struct is tedious.

Tell me now about farming red crosses a whole day.
Sariton Xavian
Mercado Mercator Partners and Associates
#1155 - 2013-10-21 02:06:07 UTC
The general concept that individuals can profit from disrupting large entities outside empire space is a good one.

An implementation where anyone can inexpensively spam their way to ruining the days of POS operators is a bad one.

People are up in arms about the API lying to them and arguing about that, but I think that argument of tool integrity/POS management drudgery vs gameplay imperative has missed the real issue: that the apparent asynchronous gameplay objective of siphons as announced isn’t quite right.

Everyone complains about AFK and asynch gameplay overshadowing real interaction... so rather than try to spice up the dull passive (plus boring administration) play of POS’s with another piece of fundamentally asynch gameplay, why not come at it from the angle of it encouraging interactive gameplay events instead?

Make the siphon a bit larger and more expensive, and provide a benefit to the POS operator if they respond to it quickly – for example by allowing the incapacitation, scooping and melting of the siphon (and associated recovery of its contents). The point is POS operators shouldn’t purely dread the threat of being siphoned, there should be a potential positive to them logging in to respond to one quickly. The API then wouldn’t need to lie, because the GOAL is that POS owners mobilise quickly.

Placing a siphon then becomes a small scale incitement event available to individuals or small groups. A more fluid, faster turn around, accessible alternative to re-enforcing a tower. If the POS owner is lazy, doesn’t care, isn’t paying attention, then the individual/small group can profit. If the owner is on the ball, they lose nothing and maybe gain a bit – and heaven forbid a skirmish might even occur. With a design along these lines larger groups might use siphon placement as a baiting, testing or buildup exercise which once again adds to the experience rather than detracting.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1156 - 2013-10-21 03:18:38 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
The general concept that individuals can profit from disrupting large entities outside empire space is a good one.

An implementation where anyone can inexpensively spam their way to ruining the days of POS operators is a bad one.

People are up in arms about the API lying to them and arguing about that, but I think that argument of tool integrity/POS management drudgery vs gameplay imperative has missed the real issue: that the apparent asynchronous gameplay objective of siphons as announced isn’t quite right.

Everyone complains about AFK and asynch gameplay overshadowing real interaction... so rather than try to spice up the dull passive (plus boring administration) play of POS’s with another piece of fundamentally asynch gameplay, why not come at it from the angle of it encouraging interactive gameplay events instead?

Make the siphon a bit larger and more expensive, and provide a benefit to the POS operator if they respond to it quickly – for example by allowing the incapacitation, scooping and melting of the siphon (and associated recovery of its contents). The point is POS operators shouldn’t purely dread the threat of being siphoned, there should be a potential positive to them logging in to respond to one quickly. The API then wouldn’t need to lie, because the GOAL is that POS owners mobilise quickly.

Placing a siphon then becomes a small scale incitement event available to individuals or small groups. A more fluid, faster turn around, accessible alternative to re-enforcing a tower. If the POS owner is lazy, doesn’t care, isn’t paying attention, then the individual/small group can profit. If the owner is on the ball, they lose nothing and maybe gain a bit – and heaven forbid a skirmish might even occur. With a design along these lines larger groups might use siphon placement as a baiting, testing or buildup exercise which once again adds to the experience rather than detracting.

But I liked the punishing people who aren't around

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1157 - 2013-10-21 03:23:20 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Why is this a deployable not a highslot module that sends a notification?

Quote:
As I see it at last it was my lot to plant the harpoon of algebraic topology into the body of the whale of algebraic geometry.
-- Solomon Lefschetz
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1158 - 2013-10-21 03:23:35 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
The general concept that individuals can profit from disrupting large entities outside empire space is a good one.

An implementation where anyone can inexpensively spam their way to ruining the days of POS operators is a bad one.

People are up in arms about the API lying to them and arguing about that, but I think that argument of tool integrity/POS management drudgery vs gameplay imperative has missed the real issue: that the apparent asynchronous gameplay objective of siphons as announced isn’t quite right.

Everyone complains about AFK and asynch gameplay overshadowing real interaction... so rather than try to spice up the dull passive (plus boring administration) play of POS’s with another piece of fundamentally asynch gameplay, why not come at it from the angle of it encouraging interactive gameplay events instead?

Make the siphon a bit larger and more expensive, and provide a benefit to the POS operator if they respond to it quickly – for example by allowing the incapacitation, scooping and melting of the siphon (and associated recovery of its contents). The point is POS operators shouldn’t purely dread the threat of being siphoned, there should be a potential positive to them logging in to respond to one quickly. The API then wouldn’t need to lie, because the GOAL is that POS owners mobilise quickly.

Placing a siphon then becomes a small scale incitement event available to individuals or small groups. A more fluid, faster turn around, accessible alternative to re-enforcing a tower. If the POS owner is lazy, doesn’t care, isn’t paying attention, then the individual/small group can profit. If the owner is on the ball, they lose nothing and maybe gain a bit – and heaven forbid a skirmish might even occur. With a design along these lines larger groups might use siphon placement as a baiting, testing or buildup exercise which once again adds to the experience rather than detracting.

the mere fact there is something stealing from our pos will be enough to drive the pos owners online...ccp is wanting some sort of useful theft device thou and that demands that the pos owners dont find out about the siphons so there will be something to actually steal in the siphon. basically this kind of mechanic will never hurt the major null alliances as much as it will hurt the small low sec corps, its very nature is broken.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1159 - 2013-10-21 03:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
I'd like to see a pole on this;

Will pos siphons affect major alliances
1 Positively
2 Negatively
3 Both
4 Neither

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1160 - 2013-10-21 04:00:10 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'd like to see a pole on this;

Will pos siphons affect major alliances
1 Positively
2 Negatively
3 Both
4 Neither


I would like to see your pole.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal