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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1121 - 2013-10-20 15:17:59 UTC
Kropotkin wrote:
Atlantis Fuanan wrote:
Good job on the siphon unit, i just love the way it will harm the "big guys". But I don't see why the owner should be abel to see WHO placed it. I'd rather leave it anonymous. Why? For the first, a thief won't let a note back with his name on it. For the second, if done by a small corp, "bug guys" could go mad and throw blobs at them, while it encourages PVP, this can't be called PVP in the end (small vs big :(). AND for the third, it could also be done by some own corp buddies and cause some conspiracy. A big part of EVE is trust right?

Maybe CCP hope is that subscriptions will increase, to support anonymous siphon-planting alts?


Maybe the real motive of syphon's existence is delivering cups of rage to POS owners, hence the note saying "Troll face alt 1 was here"
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1122 - 2013-10-20 15:24:07 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".

It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.

With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).

Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc...
I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.

Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake.


And so many eve online subscribers demonstrating there incredible absence of knowledge thinking POSs are easy and AFK, that POS monkeys are lazy and are pandered to by CCP. CSM actions and consequently the Devs were told here what those lazy POS monkeys' thought about that sort of attitude "I am a small portion of the eve community" note the 143 pages of comment on why CCP not fixing POS interface and mechanics and security was not good.

If CCP was to be considered to be pandering to anyone truly lazy, it would be cloaky AFKers. I mean, how little effort do they put into their gameplay? Think further, how ironic would it be if someone combined an AFK cloaky with these siphons to steal moon goo? How could that not be described as lazy gameplay?

On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it?

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1123 - 2013-10-20 15:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
OK so if you want the API not to lie, then the Siphon unit can be emptied and then scooped, so someone actually in system can work it to their advantage, do an hour of siphon then grab the moon goo then take back teh Siphon. In fact when I thought about this unit after CCP proposed it I assumed that is how it would work, I also assumed it would be placed about 300 km from the POS. While I will use this at a strategic level, there is no way that I would use this to make ISK at 10m a pop and anyone can take the stuff...

EDIT: To make it clear, my suggestion is that the siphon unit is linked to the player who placed it in terms of grabbing the moon goo out of it and of course scooping it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Herr Esiq
Viziam
#1124 - 2013-10-20 15:46:15 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it?

And you can"t see the difference between a 'personal character monitor' and a 'automated alliance tool that monotors a complete empire like HAL 9000'.

You really cant can you?
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1125 - 2013-10-20 15:54:14 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned

•Shooting at stationary structures is boring

•Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring

◦See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool

•Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it

◦See: everything involving starbases.


From this Dev Blog.

Apparently they have forgotten the lessons learned.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Herr Esiq
Viziam
#1126 - 2013-10-20 16:05:19 UTC
It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly..
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1127 - 2013-10-20 16:18:04 UTC
My take on the API giving "false" information. It is a bad mechanic.

A POS manger uses the API to manage POS, he is looking at the information that the API is sending him and satisfied goes and does something fun, rather than sitting there micro manageing POS. If he notices somthing amiss, he is not "AFK" he can deal with the problem. With this "mechanic" he is not going to have time to do something fun, he is having to tediously check each POS.

I don't know about anybody else but I play this GAME to have fun, it is not supposed to be a tedious, second job simulator. TBH I don't own a POS because I don't want to have a second job in EVE.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1128 - 2013-10-20 16:21:26 UTC
Herr Esiq wrote:
It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly..

Then the POS owner isn't AFK, and you should find a POS owner that is. QED

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Herr Esiq
Viziam
#1129 - 2013-10-20 16:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Esiq
The API gives out way too much information already, and i'll give credit where credit is due; players really REALLY went out of their way to create tools to monitor empty regions of space through IT development.

If the API would tell the truth, there still wont be any incentive to check on the POS how its holding up except for the calendar route that was previously planned.

Maybe it shouldnt lie and remove that part of the API completely..
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1130 - 2013-10-20 16:38:48 UTC
Herr Esiq wrote:
The API gives out way too much information already, and i'll give credit where credit is due; players really REALLY went out of their way to create tools to monitor empty regions of space through IT development.

If the API would tell the truth, there still wont be any incentive to check on the POS how its holding up except for the calendar route that was previously planned.

Maybe it shouldnt lie and remove that part of the API completely..

Then give us a reason to use the awful trusec system that the moon is in, besides renting it out under usufruct.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Mister McDerp
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1131 - 2013-10-20 16:41:44 UTC
Herr Esiq wrote:
It would be tedious if i see my sihphon units removed constantly..

It would be tedious if i see my reactions shut down constantly


also more expensive
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1132 - 2013-10-20 16:44:45 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
My take on the API giving "false" information. It is a bad mechanic.

A POS manger uses the API to manage POS, he is looking at the information that the API is sending him and satisfied goes and does something fun, rather than sitting there micro manageing POS. If he notices somthing amiss, he is not "AFK" he can deal with the problem. With this "mechanic" he is not going to have time to do something fun, he is having to tediously check each POS.

I don't know about anybody else but I play this GAME to have fun, it is not supposed to be a tedious, second job simulator. TBH I don't own a POS because I don't want to have a second job in EVE.

I see that progodlegend will triumph over the empty husks of our unmaintained pos

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1133 - 2013-10-20 17:29:40 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
My take on the API giving "false" information. It is a bad mechanic.

A POS manger uses the API to manage POS, he is looking at the information that the API is sending him and satisfied goes and does something fun, rather than sitting there micro manageing POS. If he notices somthing amiss, he is not "AFK" he can deal with the problem. With this "mechanic" he is not going to have time to do something fun, he is having to tediously check each POS.

I don't know about anybody else but I play this GAME to have fun, it is not supposed to be a tedious, second job simulator. TBH I don't own a POS because I don't want to have a second job in EVE.

I see that progodlegend will triumph over the empty husks of our unmaintained pos


Didn't you know N3 was formed to kill us

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1134 - 2013-10-20 18:17:57 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

I see that progodlegend will triumph over the empty husks of our unmaintained pos


Every time I see that, I read it as "prodgodlegend" which tbqh is a much better name.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#1135 - 2013-10-20 18:29:20 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".

It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.

With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).

Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc...
I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.

Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake.


And so many eve online subscribers demonstrating there incredible absence of knowledge thinking POSs are easy and AFK, that POS monkeys are lazy and are pandered to by CCP. CSM actions and consequently the Devs were told here what those lazy POS monkeys' thought about that sort of attitude "I am a small portion of the eve community" note the 143 pages of comment on why CCP not fixing POS interface and mechanics and security was not good.

If CCP was to be considered to be pandering to anyone truly lazy, it would be cloaky AFKers. I mean, how little effort do they put into their gameplay? Think further, how ironic would it be if someone combined an AFK cloaky with these siphons to steal moon goo? How could that not be described as lazy gameplay?

On the matter of the API, yes diddling the API so it reports false information, what could be wrong with that? I guess those people using Evemon, Eve Fitting Tool, Pyfa they are all lazy as well I suppose, bad API feeds wouldn't bother them would it?


You are being obtuse.

• It is accepted that a moon mining POS is AFK income, as in it accrues materials while you are offline - so you are wrong.
• You assume others have no knowledge of POS managment because they disagree with your whines - you are wrong (I have ran a POS network of 15 POS solo and know the issues and pain of doing so).
• You are crying about Eve Fitting tool other API tools/data that have nothing to do with syphons and their (lack of) impact on the API - it just shows how obtuse you are being.
• You are apparently delibrately confusing Two Steps suggestions (dead horse POS rework) with supporting your own agenda about syphons - Just because POS owners (myself included) badly want a rework of the mechanics in a threadnaught about POS mechanics doesn't mean they agree with you about syphons.
• AFK Cloak whine - Stop talking rubbish about AFK cloaking laziness, you are being stupid and should go post in the relevant thread about that.

Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1136 - 2013-10-20 19:03:33 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.


And the fact is that the API's purpose is to give accurate, useful information. If it shouldn't be giving certain information, the correct response is to not give out that information, not to give out inaccurate information. If you're giving players a tool and saying 'you can trust this', and then you make it lie, you're only demonstrating that your players can trust neither your tool, nor you.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#1137 - 2013-10-20 19:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyktor Abyss
Arrendis wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.


And the fact is that the API's purpose is to give accurate, useful information. If it shouldn't be giving certain information, the correct response is to not give out that information, not to give out inaccurate information. If you're giving players a tool and saying 'you can trust this', and then you make it lie, you're only demonstrating that your players can trust neither your tool, nor you.


No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1138 - 2013-10-20 19:59:13 UTC
Stop misspelling siphons.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1139 - 2013-10-20 20:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Flames
Sojobo Otaku wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.

Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ...

This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time.

/me detects a bullshitter somewhere...oh its that sojobo guy! the one who tries telling people the API would instantly make these syphoons useless when in reality the corp assets api has a 6 hour cache timer and someone would have to check that api data and even if you automatically checked every 6 hours you still need someone to be awake and able to go to the pos to remove the syphoon. I have a life so even with the ability to know that my pos is being stolen from there is a 16 hour window (us real world people call it sleep and a job) that I literally can NOT get on eve to do a damn thing about a syphoon. At least if someone was killing my pos my stront would give me a realistic chance to tear down/gather a defense force.
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon
#1140 - 2013-10-20 20:46:35 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Fact is the API tool is useful for helping people do stuff out of game with the tools designed by players. These tools should NOT give an in game advantage, which is what some player designed 'syphon alert' system would do if POS syphoning appeared via the API.


And the fact is that the API's purpose is to give accurate, useful information. If it shouldn't be giving certain information, the correct response is to not give out that information, not to give out inaccurate information. If you're giving players a tool and saying 'you can trust this', and then you make it lie, you're only demonstrating that your players can trust neither your tool, nor you.


No because you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is still a useful indicator, just not guaranteed to be a 100% accurate figure *if* you get you POS syphoned. If you want to know your EXACT silo statuses every hour - check in game.


Except there's no good justification for why your poses would lie to you in the first place. And like other people have said, there's a 6 hour cache on pos status updates anyway, so the only way you would know "immediately" would be if the siphoner was unlucky and managed to place his siphon shortly before the end of that 6 hour window. Combine this with people having other things to do rather than sit in front of a computer keeping track of their poses all day for a marginal decrease in how much they'll be penalized by these things, and you get a ****** mechanic that also drags down a good one, namely the API.