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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1101 - 2013-10-20 02:31:45 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..

Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve.

By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed.

I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic.


Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well.

I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1102 - 2013-10-20 02:33:32 UTC
Ereshgikal wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
Ereshgikal wrote:
Close thread please. Just same 4 characters repeating what they said 5 posts ago.

Edit: Or you can implement a proper "ignore" function on these #&!"#ยค& forums.


get out


And please play outside, the adults are conversing with the Mormon Missionaries.


Thank you for pointing out one of the reasons why Eve-O forums are shite.


Eve-O forums aren't that bad, I have seen worse, no I won't link, I am not that terrible a human being.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1103 - 2013-10-20 02:49:49 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..

Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve.

Lies.

Goon alt, goon tears.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1104 - 2013-10-20 02:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Miner Hottie wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..

Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve.

By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed.

I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic.


Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well.

I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK.

It's ironic, but so are your tears.

HOWEVER, I do hear that, in the name of CONTENT, the CFC's blackops pilots are living in the ncdor renter space. SO it is in fact lived in, and quite active in terms of pvp

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon
#1105 - 2013-10-20 03:08:04 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..

Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve.

By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed.

I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic.
So what your saying, is run a small moon ming operation spread over a couple of systems i should do nothing but sit at the pos's 24/7 to guard them against thieves?? I run multiple toons a dedicated pos bunny and pvp toons, so what i need to do is not use my pvp toons for pvp as i am now expected to sit in a pos all day waiting for a siphon to be placed.

In fact what i will do is simply shut down the pos's as the required time vs income is no longer viable.. Not all pos setups make billions a month, some (like mine) generate enough income to enable me to pvp, if i have to commit more time to the pos's it is no longer viable because that's not how i want to play. Even with external programs I login to my pos's every day, to fuel them, move product around etc. It is by no means a passive income and requires upkeep. Result, the big players in moon mining get just a little more income due to my product no longer being there.


Do you use jabber or TS to enhance your game play?? Would you be happy to have them taken away so you need to sit in chat all day watching for fleets to go up instead of getting a ping? Do you use Evemon or something similar to monitor skill cues and how would you feel about the API not giving correct information and you end up with empty skill cues? Not everyone can be online every day so rely on external programs to make sure their chosen style of play is being maintained.

NB; very few actually inhabit the systems moon mining is done in as they often having nothing to offer other than moon mining.


In addition to all this, there's no actual reward for checking on your poses constantly, just less of a penalty vs not doing so. Because of the waste mechanic, you're guaranteed a 20% (or 10%, or whatever) loss on whatever is siphoned, so even if you're on the ball and notice that a siphon has been deployed within a few hours of its deployment, you're still being penalized even if you're managing to get everything, just not quite as much. Basically, the siphons as proposed are something like this: "Here's a thing, if you're on the receiving end of it you're either screwed over completely or less screwed over if you're paying attention constantly. Also this API that you can use to make managing your stuff easier? We're gonna make that information untrustworthy and you have to check on all this information ingame anyway if you want to make sure it's accurate, thus defeating the point of having this API in the first place."
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1106 - 2013-10-20 03:35:14 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..

Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve.

Lies.

Goon alt, goon tears.


Sorry to disappoint but NOT a goon alt . Just pointing out the obvious, no tears needed.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Thorven Sinulf
Pulsar Construction and Freight
#1107 - 2013-10-20 03:37:32 UTC
Great, so now someone can cheaply siphon off materials from space. What's next, DUST punks raiding my colonies and stealing/destroying stored PI materials, or allowing orbital bombardment against said colonies for jollies? Well, I guess it could be balanced by allowing players to recruit marines and purchase planetary/orbital defenses...never mind, bring it on!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1108 - 2013-10-20 03:37:40 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..

Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve.

Lies.

Goon alt, goon tears.

Sorry to disappoint but NOT a goon alt . Just pointing out the obvious, no tears needed.

I'm just supposed to believe that on GD? nuh uh

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1109 - 2013-10-20 03:44:48 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So reality is; pos siphons will be used to shut down the small operators while those with most of the decent moons remain pretty much untouchable and are very likely to actually profit from this whole thing..

Well done CCP, you've given the major power blocks another foot hold on total domination of eve.

By siphons being a real mechanic in the game, means it will create player traffic. This means the opportunity for combat increases. Any POS operators that rely on some 3rd party tool to play the game for them will be the ones to suffer the most. Any groups that actually inhabit the space they have POS in will be just fine as they will have eyes in the system to see when a siphon is deployed.

I can't believe how heavily some groups rely on programs to play the game for them and go out of their way to make sure AFK game play and mechanics remain a thing for EVE. Pathetic.


Except the siphon griefers will be in nulli interceptors or stabbed blockade runners or cloaky recons, generating rather indifferent volumes of combat. I also love they way you seem to think moon mining is AFK. I reckon a survey on player burn out in Eve would show two groups with the highest level of burn out being CEOs and POS monkeys, with FCs possibly being up there as well.

I also find it ironic that a senior figure in NC., which has substantially outsourced the act living its own space, i.e. has gone beyond being AFK in its own space, is chastising people for running POS, which it thinks is AFK.

It's ironic, but so are your tears.

HOWEVER, I do hear that, in the name of CONTENT, the CFC's blackops pilots are living in the ncdor renter space. SO it is in fact lived in, and quite active in terms of pvp


True, but I doubt Marlona would know about that seeing as his AFK from his space.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1110 - 2013-10-20 08:12:10 UTC
I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.

Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sojobo Otaku
Otaku Industries
#1111 - 2013-10-20 08:24:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.

Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ...

This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1112 - 2013-10-20 08:40:33 UTC
Sojobo Otaku wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.

Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ...

This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time.


Why? Are you scared the POS owners might make you defend your completely AFK ISK siphon?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1113 - 2013-10-20 09:21:05 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Sojobo Otaku wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
I'd be interested to know about future application of the "API will lie to you" precedent.

Just think of the possibilities to make you have to check everything in-game. A skill to make your market orders api more accurate ...

This feature would be completely useless if the API didn't lie. I do however think the size should probably be bigger in the cargohold. If the API didn't lie though then POS owners would instanly know someone is stealing from them and thus the feature would be a total waste of time.


Why? Are you scared the POS owners might make you defend your completely AFK ISK siphon?
LOL LOL LOL +1 X3 A goon using logic, you sir have made my day. It was worth getting up this morning for that profound comment. I thank you

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Chigurh Friendo
Fight The Blob
#1114 - 2013-10-20 11:48:08 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


This is a poor concept, as it merely punishes those players who don't participate in alt-exploitive multiple-account play. Eve Online already caters far too well to this playstyle in place of encouraging meaningful player interaction... where in most instances multiboxing and alt-based play already represent the optimal course of action.

By imposing a limit, you would constrain space-poor players and small entities whereas large entities would be largely unaffected due to the numerical and alt-based workarounds.

Strongly disapprove.
BoomBoss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1115 - 2013-10-20 12:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: BoomBoss
In other words, faking the assets makes this change on the API makes the Asset API completely useless.

Thank you for making our work on apps even more shittier then it already was. All the hours and hours of work completely ruined by that change.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1116 - 2013-10-20 12:59:09 UTC
Thorven Sinulf wrote:
Great, so now someone can cheaply siphon off materials from space. What's next, DUST punks raiding my colonies and stealing/destroying stored PI materials, or allowing orbital bombardment against said colonies for jollies? Well, I guess it could be balanced by allowing players to recruit marines and purchase planetary/orbital defenses...never mind, bring it on!!


But they want an easy game, why can't you understand that? Choosing between defending POS and PVP roams is UNFAIR, BUAAAAHHHHH, I WANT MY SPACE EMPIRE, BUAAAAAAHHHHH
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1117 - 2013-10-20 13:19:44 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
... One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less ...

What I find most entertaining is that CCP have engaged GSF leadership as Game-architectural consultants -- and GSF leaders pay CCP for the privilege of providing consulting service!

Only thing more entertaining would be for GSF to hire competent Game-implementers to build competing Game, drive CCP out of business. Maybe they could call it "Awful Something"?Evil

Ref: Clayton Christensen, The Innovator's Dilemma
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#1118 - 2013-10-20 13:25:48 UTC
So many stupids talking about the API "lying to them".

It is absolutely moronic to think someone performing a type of in game covert sabotage against your corporation IN GAME should actually be flagged up nice and easily OUT OF GAME via API just to make your lives easier.

With whines like that it is no wonder everyone is trolling you - The question is: Is there really any reason Corp structures etc need to even be included in the API in the first place? (It is done to make life easier for POS folks, not to do half the maintenance work for them).

Tools already exist for POS fuelling via the in game calander, notifications are sent via mail in game for fuel, or when it is attacked, even when some random puts a tower up in your Sov etc...
I'd argue for a much harsher Eve without even the in game help for POS operators - and that players who can't be bothered to even log in to manage and maintain their Eve POS empires don't deserve those empires in the first place.

Right now CCP panders completely for the lazy community - adding any 'syphon warning' via the API would be a massive mistake.
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1119 - 2013-10-20 13:30:26 UTC
nXus wrote:
Concerned that the false API tracking thing is going to completely break existing API tools that people rely on. So we'll see how the false reporting works in reality when people are emptying/shuffling silos etc.

Expecting T2 prices to go crazy. If these are spammed that's already 20% supply lost from the game and if it turns people off running the reaction chains then that's additional supply gone from the system. Add market manipulation and it's going to be a pretty crazy ride. Time will tell I guess..

I don't see this affecting large entities that don't base their ship doctrines on t2 ships. Expect T1 and T3 ships to become the norm.

Perhaps CCP Plan is to use cheap siphons to crash MoonGoo production, drain existing hoards of MoonGoos, returning to original CCP intended state of MoonGoos being scarce, then later rebalance by making siphons more expensive to tune prices of MoonGoos?

Rube Goldberg, call your office!
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1120 - 2013-10-20 13:34:14 UTC
Atlantis Fuanan wrote:
Good job on the siphon unit, i just love the way it will harm the "big guys". But I don't see why the owner should be abel to see WHO placed it. I'd rather leave it anonymous. Why? For the first, a thief won't let a note back with his name on it. For the second, if done by a small corp, "bug guys" could go mad and throw blobs at them, while it encourages PVP, this can't be called PVP in the end (small vs big :(). AND for the third, it could also be done by some own corp buddies and cause some conspiracy. A big part of EVE is trust right?

Maybe CCP hope is that subscriptions will increase, to support anonymous siphon-planting alts?