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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#681 - 2013-10-18 12:28:35 UTC
Turfrider wrote:
This is awesome. Good job CCP. About time.

All the people crying about this calling it "horribly unbalanced" lol @ you. Moons are inheriently horribly unbalanced, worried about your SRP? I'm just happy more of you will be forced into the belts to earn a crust so I can kill you :)

Ill be putting 100's of these things up as soon as physically possible, good game.


ok just let me know so i can come steal from it :)
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#682 - 2013-10-18 12:29:15 UTC
Now my only question is why can't we pick them up and move them?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#683 - 2013-10-18 12:30:52 UTC
Always amazing to see the masses of player to afraid to go to null to shoot goons but brave enough to shoot off their mouths at goons on some forum. Up until this year I've made a career of shooting goons and I don't even hate them as much as these forum warriors do.

I mention this because people are so caught up in what they think are goon tears that they aren't looking at the actual issue involved.

These pos siphons seem cool to me, but a little small and easy to carry for the disruption they will cause. I predict several things will happen:

Some prices may start to go up as these things are spammed everywhere. Even is the siphon raiders themself don't make any isk from it (because pos owners will just fly out and get their product back), the part ofthe product that is lost in transit will eventually affect the bottom line.

Tech2 haulers are going to die in droves in the beginning to bubbled POSes. Ceptors won't but ceptors can't haul off the loot either. those same haulers are going to die in droves as they try to get away with the loot through super bubbled gates surrounding the system the POS is in.

Alliances are going to encourage their members to train up pos gunning alts that can fly haulers that can be left logged off everywhere. Whoever thinks these sipons will lead more "patrols" doesn't understand EVE online game mechanics, were you can just log off an alt at a pos and log him in to see whats going on.

Large Alliances will have the manpower to scratch the minor itch these tings will be come. Smaller Alliances will lose a whole bunch of income for the minor moons they mine as smart raiders learn to go after them instead of the big guys who can fight back. This in turn will strengthen the large alliances. Malcanis' Law will now be known and Malcanis' World.

But lets not stop any of that from keeping you guys from enjoying the goon tears. Too bad those tears will be from them laughing all the way to the bank.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#684 - 2013-10-18 12:37:01 UTC
Igor Nappi wrote:
I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :)


But that's the beauty of it as a griefing tool; anybody can empty it. People can literally just fly around in a blockade runner, visiting moons and seeing if there's any goo to steal. It's like a bird feeder for blockade runners.
Frying Doom
#685 - 2013-10-18 12:37:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Too bad those tears will be from them laughing all the way to the bank.

What else is new. While the crappy moon mining mechanic exists they always will.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#686 - 2013-10-18 12:38:03 UTC
Igor Nappi wrote:
I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :)


Well, it might seem that that content consists largely of an alliance leadership griefing its own members, by making them flying round hostile R64/32s every day spamming siphons that get blown up a few minutes later. But someone could probably just write a bot capable of automating the process, particularly if they'd already mapped the location of all valuable moons in the Eve.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#687 - 2013-10-18 12:39:42 UTC
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.
IamBeastx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#688 - 2013-10-18 12:42:30 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.

new skill for number of siphon units deployabe

All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#689 - 2013-10-18 12:49:00 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Sure, restrict this to alliances who have the numbers to blanket regions in them, while being nearly immune to small entities who would want to disrupt their income.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#690 - 2013-10-18 12:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.



NO to both ideas. The waste is essential to prevent this being zero sum. The waste factor means a siphon isnt pointless EVEN IF the original owner is able to empty it. 10% is too low.

The 5 to 10 limit means no-one will do this for ISK as the max ISK/hourOfEffort is too low (while the risk is high) - a typical scenario might give you 6 - 9 hours or siphon time before being discovered, of which the first 4 are merely recouping the cost of the siphon, leaving at 5 - 12.5m ISK profit per siphon in a day. If you can only deploy 5 thats a max of 60m profit with 50m worth of hardware at risk. Why would anyone do that instead of missioning in empire for an hour.


Instead, make it so that a ship equipped with a cloak cant deploy or empty a siphon, increase the siphon max storage to 5 days or so, and make it so siphons canot even be manually targetted by POS guns.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#691 - 2013-10-18 12:50:28 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:


b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.



This strongly favors large groups, while impacting the ability of small groups to bother the larger ones.

Bad call.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#692 - 2013-10-18 12:51:34 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
mynnna wrote:


Except even in that case there is material destroyed. You lose twelve percent of your mined output, PERIOD, no matter what. So if someone drops one of these before I leave for work, I get punished for having a job. If they do it before I go to sleep, I get punished for sleeping. Or hell, if they live in AUTZ and I'm in USTZ I get punished just because they're in a different timezone. The theft isn't irrecoverable, but the destruction is.


Flip that around?

What if you live in AUTZ and they live in USTZ. They spend 100m to drop 10 of these in a system, and log out to go to bed. You log in, check your POS's, blap the 10 siphons before they have a chance to do anything. Then isn't it him getting punished for different timezone and sleeping? What if he drops them before going to work but you have that day off, and you blap the siphons before they have a chance to do anything but he isn't going to notice for at least 10 hours or so. Is he getting punished for having a job?

There are multiple situations in EVE currently where people can get unlucky with timing based on having RL issues or commitments. So guess what.


I personally would have used the HTFU VideoBlink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#693 - 2013-10-18 12:55:24 UTC
ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.

This is a peculiar thread indeed.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#694 - 2013-10-18 12:57:01 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Let me know what you think.
I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#695 - 2013-10-18 12:58:41 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


How about waste at 0-5%, on a random basis, more than that and it creates supply issues which certain busy bees will profit from.

I don't like the idea of character limits, it feels too restraining, its like making corp owned POCO's in hisec still protected by CONCORD, half baked basically...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#696 - 2013-10-18 12:58:53 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.

Those don't actually address any of the balance issues that were raised with these and I have no idea why those two are the response to feedback. The biggest issue is cost.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
IamBeastx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#697 - 2013-10-18 13:02:41 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


4 per skill level
maybe in future add a specialized skill

Limit numbers allowable on the same grid (ie: 300 of these on a POS with bubbles deployed would become a great catch and de-cloak exploit)

Make waste factor based on skills as well, if people seriously want to use these a quick skill train will help the wastage distaste.




All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#698 - 2013-10-18 13:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
Quote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:



a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%


As long as these things can be killed at any time, 20% is fine

however, the currently planed implementation is extremely flawed, as outline in my above posts

Quote:

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.


strongly favors large groups, BAD idea, really bad, a limit is reasonable, but 5-10 is too low
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#699 - 2013-10-18 13:06:27 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Time to scrap moon mining then!


Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.


At least not whiles it's AFK passive income.

Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.

Please explain to me how you take a moon from someone without undocking?

POSes are not passive income. POSes are PvP income. The only one CCP currently provides.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#700 - 2013-10-18 13:15:10 UTC
Good change. A region full of moons takes hundreds of people and thousands of man-hours to conquer. One person should not be able to hamper that by dropping a couple siphons per moon over the course of a few hours.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal