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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#401 - 2013-10-17 21:18:28 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
POSes are already ''Kill yourself'' levels of logistics nightmare. To set up a POS on a moon worth anything, you need to spend much ISK and be able to field multiple fleets.


Nobody is forcing anybody to have POS unless you live in w-space.

So maybe switch to something more fun if this activity is sooooo terrible?

Invalid signature format
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#402 - 2013-10-17 21:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
Why do any of you think this will hurt Goonswarm?

First off, Goonswarm easily has the leadership capability, player willingness, and financial fortitude to use this as a viable price fixing/alliance crushing tactic.

Second, as I explained earlier, only the most daft people would think that you're going to make tonnes of isk while you make the "evil empire pay". There is some profitability potential, but it is a LOT of work coupled with a lot of luck. Maybe the medium and larger sizes will change that, but I doubt it will without a lot of mechanics changes.

The ONLY way this could possibly hurt goonswarm while at the same time not make it be worthwhile for them to use it "en masse" would be limit one per POS. If it was limited to one, the risk/reward value of trying to massive land thousands of Siphons would be both organizationally extensive and ultimately unprofitable and fail to dent either enemy incomes or effectively manipulate moon goo dispersement.

The more I think about it, the more I think CCP didn't give the little guy an advantage, they gave the biggest guy on the block the Eve equivilent of the Death Star.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#403 - 2013-10-17 21:20:38 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Querns wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.


The siphons do not destroy minerals.

They are freely lootable.

Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.


Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal


Yes! Lol Shame on me.


Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#404 - 2013-10-17 21:20:52 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:

Or... you could actually occupy the space you decide to deploy assets in with other players from your corp, alliance, coalition?


Well, for starters, you've thought this feature through and read how it works so poorly you were outraged at a post telling you exactly what you wanted to hear.

But the point is this doesn't reward "occupying" your space. It requires manually checking your pos every few hours. If there's 20 people ratting in that system nonstop it's not actually stopping someone from siphoning.



Nothing is stopping one of those 20 people from using D-scan to see that a siphon has been dropped and then warp over and collect the goods.

Anyone can take from the siphon. So when you see them around your friendly POS warp over, collect and kill the syphon. What, is this mythical Viator gonna kill you with amazing hauler DPS? An interceptor can't collect the goods since it's cargo bay is too small.

Mostly I see AFK, large space holding but not space using Alliances (aka goonswarm) complaining that they will have to use their space to keep track of their AFK income.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#405 - 2013-10-17 21:21:00 UTC
So basically here is how I interpret this whole situation:

1) Goonswarm feel rightly threatened because people will just walk into their undefended territory and **** over their POS mining operations

2) Goonswarm QQ's for 20 pages

3) Goonswarm announces that they can do more damage than can be done to them...Basically they are saying they will burn the whole world with the same tool that will burn them....

So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.


Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:

Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?

Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#406 - 2013-10-17 21:21:57 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:

Why so serious Goonies? You used to be such fun loving bees. Now you're the guy in the suit and tie who drinks dark coffee every morning and complains about "kids these days". So sad Sad


We're more like the mischievous youth telling our parents "hey you know that box of fireworks you have there... it's probably not a good idea to let me have it"
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#407 - 2013-10-17 21:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
xttz wrote:



Because there are plenty of small groups who simply buy those r64's in Jita and react them into more advanced materials required for T2.

.



are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?

edit: also, this will make the cartels life very hard to keeping the price up, so, you see maibe there is a small chance that the prices will go down, so what they lose from siphoning they gain from price difference Blink
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#408 - 2013-10-17 21:23:41 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Querns wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.


The siphons do not destroy minerals.

They are freely lootable.

Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.


Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal


Yes! Lol Shame on me.


Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur.


Hmmmm, this bone.... it looks..... like a club!!

With this I can defeat the evil Goonz!
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#409 - 2013-10-17 21:24:18 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
I don't really do moon harvesting, but is there not a way to see what gets put in your silos via the API? If so, a simple tool that is showing expected vs. actual output could be a really easy alarm system.

Yes. Except it is going to lie to you:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3749179#post3749179
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#410 - 2013-10-17 21:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
gascanu wrote:
are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?

"Small groups" don't own R64s. And even in the hypothetical unlikely scenario of a R64 moon owned by a large alliance being siphoned 24/7, large alliances would still hold R64s - if not for the income, then to deny the income to anybody else.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#411 - 2013-10-17 21:27:44 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.


Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:

Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?

Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.



3) Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Your math: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Mister McDerp
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#412 - 2013-10-17 21:27:58 UTC
Huttan Funaila wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
I don't really do moon harvesting, but is there not a way to see what gets put in your silos via the API? If so, a simple tool that is showing expected vs. actual output could be a really easy alarm system.

Yes. Except it is going to lie to you:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3749179#post3749179

Which is imho the worst about all of this.
Literally so badly thought out they have to make the API scew us over
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#413 - 2013-10-17 21:29:38 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Querns wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.


The siphons do not destroy minerals.

They are freely lootable.

Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.


Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal


Yes! Lol Shame on me.


Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur.


Am I supposed to be holding a bone

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#414 - 2013-10-17 21:30:00 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.


These things are so cheap I have enough personal ISK to run around and drop 5 siphons on every single r64 in the game. And I'm not even rich.

What do you think our small group of guys who suicide billions of isk a day ganking hi-sec freighters will do with this feature?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#415 - 2013-10-17 21:30:03 UTC
I guess it's technically cartilage

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#416 - 2013-10-17 21:31:44 UTC
gascanu wrote:
you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?
Well let's just pretend that these siphons will actually be cost-effective and useful. Assuming that, your little crap alliance goes and drops some on a big alliance's valuable moons - and they have ALOT of moons. The impact is a small percentage of their moon income, while they can turn around and drop siphons on your relatively miniscule amount of crap moons taking ALL your moon income. And they actually have the manpower to keep the siphons maintained. So yeah, big alliances would be more effective with mythical awesome siphons.

Fortunately the siphons will not be awesome. They are overpriced for their function and the amount of effort involved - a siphon essentially does nothing if the POS owner just unloads his moongoo from the siphon. And the only way you can prevent that is to constantly watch the siphon. Which is far too much effort for the amount of return.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#417 - 2013-10-17 21:33:02 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


So 3) makes me laugh. Goonswarm has a lot of players, but they certainly don''t have the ISK to sustainably do what they are proposing.


Some minor scratchpaper math shows that for them to even put a minor dent, they would have to spend TRILLIONS of ISK, and then the question is:

Does the raise in profitability from their own moon goo operations offset their spending trillions of ISK on on siphons?

Unlikely -- especially considering their own operations will be far less efficient.



3) Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Your math: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


start filling it in

1) how many do you need to plant to just negatively affect a single tiny region, let alone a meaningful amount of total area

2) how often will they be discovered/eliminated

3) how much ISK per day does it cost to maintain a sustained large attack

keep going, and yes, the numbers add up hilariously fast.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#418 - 2013-10-17 21:33:14 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this is what i can gather goons will do...

they have a huge stock pile of moon mins

they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.

so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...

so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this



Thanks for restating everything Aryth and Mynnna are already telling everyone.

If we mercilessly siphon every R64 moon in the universe that isn't ours, and we lose some R64s to enemy siphon, all while toying with the R64 markets since months ago, there's no way we aren't making trillions and annihilating affordable T2 prices.



well if they get rid of the 20% loss then that would put a dent into your nefarious plans.

moreover alchamy poses will increase invalue because you cant shyper them...

i plan on getting stupid rich with you guys... cheers!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#419 - 2013-10-17 21:33:41 UTC
There are maybe a few hundred R64 moons we don't own.

Let's say there a a thousand of them.

That's still only 20 bil to put two siphons on each. I could bankroll that and I'm basically a newbie. Jewbal-level 1%ers can buy enough siphons to do this hundreds of times. So can our socialist alliance.

This is chump change. It costs even less if we aim at only one type of moon mineral at once.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#420 - 2013-10-17 21:33:48 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
gascanu wrote:
are you trying to say that buying r64 in jita is more profitable for those "small groups" than mining it themself from the moons in the region they live? really?

"Small groups" don't own R64s. And even in the hypothetical unlikely scenario of a R64 moon owned by a large alliance being siphoned 24/7, large alliances would still hold R64s - if not for the income, then to deny the income to anybody else.


umm, you contradict yourself: