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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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IrJosy
Club 1621
#181 - 2013-10-17 17:31:23 UTC
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


I'm not a game development expert or anything ,but why not just balance it BEFORE you implement it into the game?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#182 - 2013-10-17 17:32:13 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made.

Thanks,
Sparks

Yes it will account for the lossed items as well. The idea is that you wouldn't notice that you were being siphoned from the API.

When the siphon is dead does our api go back to being useful, or is there going to be ghost minerals in there forever?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#183 - 2013-10-17 17:32:26 UTC
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


Release broken, fix later. Cool.
IrJosy
Club 1621
#184 - 2013-10-17 17:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: IrJosy
MeBiatch wrote:
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.



It's the opposite actually.

Jabber leak:

(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent
(11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up
(11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve

This mechanic is the single greatest pro-blue donut mechanic.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#185 - 2013-10-17 17:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.


Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.


how so?

i intend of setting up shop in a region near you... i will directly bene from increased moon min value because i will be selling your moon mins. Big smile

face it... the days of owning 9 regions are comming to an end... no longer will greater number eq. greater isk income without activly defending all your space all the time and not just on CTA alarm ops..

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#186 - 2013-10-17 17:33:41 UTC
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


You don't need metrics to know how this will be used. It's 10m. It's 20m3. And "we'll balance this SOON(TM)" is not really a great response given that soon never comes.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#187 - 2013-10-17 17:34:49 UTC
Klyith wrote:
Hey CCP, you should introduce more things that will wreck the game and make it easier for GSF put the rest of nullsec over a barrel. Goon tears! Goons tears! They cry when the game gets more boring! twisted twisted twisted



ahhhhh how sad, show me where CCP touched your passive ISK printing machines.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2013-10-17 17:34:58 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright:

this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.

instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:

i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.


hmmm in a MMO that is live 23/7 heaven forbit you might have to make friends with those darn americans and Australians...


We did, not that much of a problem. but our friends are going to hate having to mini structure grind for us because they can't man our POS guns without having alts in our corp.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#189 - 2013-10-17 17:36:09 UTC
IrJosy wrote:

It's the opposite actually.

Jabber leak:

(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent
(11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up
(11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve

This mechanic is the single greatest pro-blue donut mechanic.


not sure why this will increase renters?

will you give a discount to renters who activly monitor your poses in a constilation?

like defend out poses from shyphon and you get to rent for 50% discount?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#190 - 2013-10-17 17:36:17 UTC
I Love Boobies wrote:
Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. Lol


This says everything I was going to.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Shonion
FREE GATES
#191 - 2013-10-17 17:37:42 UTC
I start feeling that ccp hates normal people, whose has family, work, school, life.... Evil
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#192 - 2013-10-17 17:37:54 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright:

this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.

instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:

i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.


hmmm in a MMO that is live 23/7 heaven forbit you might have to make friends with those darn americans and Australians...


We did, not that much of a problem. but our friends are going to hate having to mini structure grind for us because they can't man our POS guns without having alts in our corp.


well if its 50k ehp that what like 5 nadoes roaming around? its not a problem if you actively monitor all your space... its just entities like you and goons happen to own huge swaths of space... and there is where the annoyance comes from.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
IrJosy
Club 1621
#193 - 2013-10-17 17:38:04 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
IrJosy wrote:

It's the opposite actually.

Jabber leak:

(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent
(11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up
(11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve

This mechanic is the single greatest pro-blue donut mechanic.


not sure why this will increase renters?

will you give a discount to renters who activly monitor your poses in a constilation?

like defend out poses from shyphon and you get to rent for 50% discount?


If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters!
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#194 - 2013-10-17 17:38:24 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Quote:
•Siphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%.


any chance we can get a skill for siphon unit efficiancy... what it would do is reduce the waste factor by 3% per level. so that way at level V the waste would only be 5%.


That wouldn't really make sense for a deployable you might be half the universe away from after dropping.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#195 - 2013-10-17 17:39:23 UTC
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
I Love Boobies wrote:
Funny how certain entities are upset they will have to watch their POS, where they will actually have to worry about their profits now. I for one think it's a pleasant idea. Will be fun to deploy them just to mess with people. Cloaky ships, small m3... nice. Now it's the small corps chance to grief the larger entities in game. Lol


This says everything I was going to.



10 bucks says that now afk cloakers are going to put a real dent in cfc income it will be nerfed in less then 6 months.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
June Ting
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#196 - 2013-10-17 17:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: June Ting
Weaselior wrote:
When the siphon is dead does our api go back to being useful, or is there going to be ghost minerals in there forever?

How about just removing the record of what moon minerals are in the POS silos entirely from the API to avoid this problem? It's far less complicated and forces people to actually pay attention to their POSes instead of running 100+ of them and having an API tool ping them to tell them what to fuel/plat next.

I fight for the freedom of my people.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#197 - 2013-10-17 17:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
MeBiatch wrote:
IrJosy wrote:

It's the opposite actually.

Jabber leak:

(11:16:23 AM) aryth: this isn't going to crush us. it will crush everyone who doesn't rent
(11:16:31 AM) aryth: which means everyone will rent. which means everyone will donut up
(11:16:34 AM) aryth: which kills eve

This mechanic is the single greatest pro-blue donut mechanic.


not sure why this will increase renters?

will you give a discount to renters who activly monitor your poses in a constilation?

like defend out poses from shyphon and you get to rent for 50% discount?


Renters will pay us x amount of isk per month to mine specific R64 moons in their rented space, they are then responsible for dealing with siphons on their towers. If they end up losing money because their moons are being siphoned heavily, that's their problem.

June Ting wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
When the siphon is dead does our api go back to being useful, or is there going to be ghost minerals in there forever?

How about just removing the record of what moon minerals are in the POS silos entirely from the API to avoid this problem? It's far less complicated and forces people to actually pay attention to their POSes instead of running 100+ of them and having an API tool ping them to tell them what to fuel/plat next.


Hell yeah let's make POS management even shittier! That won't cause null blocs to increasingly turn to renters for income at all!
Darius Caliente
The Pinecone Squad
United Federation of Conifers
#198 - 2013-10-17 17:40:46 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
The Warfish wrote:
Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?

If not, it should.


Yes, Kill Reports will be generated including the information on what was dropped/destroyed.


Doesn't necessarily belong in this forum but any chance this means that Mobile Warp Disruptors are changing as well to now provide a killmail, since they are another form of deployable?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#199 - 2013-10-17 17:41:16 UTC
IrJosy wrote:
If goons siphon all of your moon income. How do you pay for your alliance? With renters!



well yes it seems this will shift the paragim from passive income to active... which i like... more targets is a good thing...

like 2006 all over again before jump frighters.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#200 - 2013-10-17 17:43:17 UTC
This actually hurts small operations way worse.

1. Find 1 man reaction/moon mining corp.
2. Find out his schedule, go to sleep, when he wakes up.
3. Wait for him to sleep.
4. You now have a timer to drop, and rescoop when it's done.

Reality, this hurts the small guy way more on an individual level. Because it's without risk if you know the guy's schedule. And while he's sitting in pos, waiting for someone to drop a siphon, he's not really playing eve, is he?