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Freighters - need reballance
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Shonion
FREE GATES
#1 - 2013-10-17 09:48:12 UTC
A long time ago, there were 90 day GTC-s and cost about 300m. Nowdays 30 day gameplay (plex) cost about 600m.
However not everything's price increased that much, but at least thats shows there are inflation in the game. Thats fine.

Nowdays empire logistic got hit by several freighter gankers, even you use one of the hauling service (like red frog) hauling stuffs in empire is more difficult then years ago. In the past ganking freighters needed like 15-20 battleships to make it sure. After some changes nowdays only 8 talos is enought or 20-25 destroyers.

So using battlecruisers its cost like 800-1000 million to gank a freighter succesfully but using destroyers its only cost like 2-300 million isk. Thats very cheap.

The point is, currently the cost of ganking a freighter in high sec is as low that its almost not interesting what are the freighter hauling, if its over 1 or 2b then its profitable anyway. There are always will be stupid ppl whose hauling 10-20+ billions screaming to gank them. They deserved to be ganked.

The idea:
Need to increase Freighters and Jump Freighters (maybe orcas) HP without its really affect 0.0 or low sec warfare. So lets increase of their hull HP x3. Thats means if its get in trouble in 0.0 or low sec, its won't save them, but give a bigger buffer in high sec, allow ppl to haul more then 500-1000m in a freighter in high sec.

Its still give the option to kill a freighter in high sec.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#2 - 2013-10-17 10:20:26 UTC
As I understand, freighters are already plenty hard to kill. If you're moving something expensive, escort it.

According to zKillboard, in the week from 2013-10-10 to 2013-10-16 a total of 72 freighters were killed in high sec, game wide. That's 10.3 per day. This number seems perfectly reasonable given the size of the game.


Strangely, 28 of the 72 were in Niarja. Clearly, don't take a Freighter there.
Lair Osen
#3 - 2013-10-17 10:46:25 UTC
Sarah Stallman wrote:
If you're moving something expensive, escort it.


And how is that going to save it from a Nado Fleet??? or any gank fleet really?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#4 - 2013-10-17 10:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Lair Osen wrote:
Sarah Stallman wrote:
If you're moving something expensive, escort it.


And how is that going to save it from a Nado Fleet??? or any gank fleet really?


Scout out ahead, freighter gives position after the jump, so logi can figure distance/get in range and 'ceptor can get in web range. Freighter starts to align, logi gets reps (staggered) 'ceptor webs it (2 webs) to dramatically reduce top speed (friegher instantly jumps to ~80% max speed and warps).

Really the logi is just insurance in case the freighter doesn't instantly warp. It won't necessarily keep the freighter alive if the camp has enough alpha to just outright kill the freighter (although, if the scout sees the camp on dscan, then the freighter shouldn't jump)

Have falcon or griffin on standby in case tackler.

Warp, rinse, repeat.


Sarah Stallman wrote:
Strangely, 28 of the 72 were in Niarja. Clearly, don't take a Freighter there.


That's on the Jita/Amarr pipe, no?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#5 - 2013-10-17 11:09:20 UTC
Use Hyena in the same corp with 3 webs. The freighter will instawarp. You might want to have few with you just in case if one of them spawns outside the web range at gate or will just have to burn to gate with one before the jump.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-10-17 11:33:30 UTC
Shonion wrote:
The point is, currently the cost of ganking a freighter in high sec is as low that its almost not interesting what are the freighter hauling, if its over 1 or 2b then its profitable anyway.


If freighter ganking is so easy, why do only a few freighters die each day?

Quote:
Need to increase Freighters and Jump Freighters (maybe orcas) HP without its really affect 0.0 or low sec warfare. So lets increase of their hull HP x3.


Eve is (or should be) designed to have appropriate risk/reward ratios. You propose a decrease in risk, what would be the accompanying decrease in reward? (For example: Smaller cargo hold, larger align times, a tax on freighters using gates,...)
Shonion
FREE GATES
#7 - 2013-10-17 12:07:04 UTC
Its not about
- how many freighter ganked per day or where
- how easy it or not
- good or bad freighter ganking.

You pointed out well, but i guess didn't want this way, that the risk/reward ratio is changed during the last years.

From: 1-1,5b risk (needed bs to gank) / noone ganked freighter below 2-3b cargo

To: 300m risk (25 catalyst) / gank anything coming throught the gate

So the risk of ganking a freighter is drasticly decreased during the last years, means its not a big risk to do it, however if you want to earn some money too you need to choose expensive ones, but if you don't care, you can easily make 1B damage (cost of freighter) to anyone for only 300m cost ships.


Ganking freighters is good, because its isk sink. What i saying is, its inballanced atm.
Lair Osen
#8 - 2013-10-17 12:11:08 UTC
Shonion wrote:

Ganking freighters is good, because its isk sink. What i saying is, its inballanced atm.


Destruction of ships/ modules/ materials/ anything is not an isk sink.
The only way isk disappears is through NPC Fees/Costs
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-10-17 12:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sipphakta en Gravonere
Shonion wrote:
You pointed out well, but i guess didn't want this way, that the risk/reward ratio is changed during the last years.

From: 1-1,5b risk (needed bs to gank) / noone ganked freighter below 2-3b cargo


You forget that with BS needed to gank you still had the insurance payout for ganking ships, which was removed since then. The break-even point has for a long long time been 1Billion ISK, that hasn't changed.

Quote:
To: 300m risk (25 catalyst) / gank anything coming throught the gate


Where is this "gank anything coming through gate" happening? Again, you forget that, while killing with Catalysts is possible, it takes a lot of people and preparation and a prepped 0.5/0.6 security system, making the ISK/person comparably low. Like I said, if ganking freighters were easy, a lot more would die each day.

Quote:
So the risk of ganking a freighter is drasticly decreased during the last years, means its not a big risk to do it, however if you want to earn some money too you need to choose expensive ones, but if you don't care, you can easily make 1B damage (cost of freighter) to anyone for only 300m cost ships.


The freighter pilot will get Insurance, so the freighter lost is much less than 1B. With the many nerfs to ganking (lowered CONCORD response time, no insurance payout, no slingshot ganking, looter getting suspect flagged, nerf to sec safaris), the risk of ganking has been lowered as well.

Quote:
Ganking freighters is good, because its isk sink. What i saying is, its inballanced atm.


Ganking is never an ISK sink, due to insurance payout for the gank target it's mostly an ISK faucet.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#10 - 2013-10-17 12:46:45 UTC
Sarah Stallman wrote:
As I understand, freighters are already plenty hard to kill. If you're moving something expensive, escort it.
Erm, it's not difficult at all. You can multibox gank them.

Sarah Stallman wrote:
Strangely, 28 of the 72 were in Niarja. Clearly, don't take a Freighter there.
Best of luck with that one. That's the only reasonable route between the major trade hubs. Other routes involve going through heaps of 0.5s and adding huge amounts of time to your route.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#11 - 2013-10-17 12:55:29 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
You forget that with BS needed to gank you still had the insurance payout for ganking ships, which was removed since then. The break-even point has for a long long time been 1Billion ISK, that hasn't changed.

That's definitely not the the case. At most it costs 200m isk to destroy a freighter in 0.5, which would make the break even point 400m. The only saving grace is that gankers are more greedy than that and wait for fat loot.

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Like I said, if ganking freighters were easy, a lot more would die each day.
Ganking freighters IS easy. It's easier than any other gank since the resists can't be changed. More would die every day if gankers chose to kill more, that's all. It's not difficulty limiting them. Freighters are at the mercy of gankers.

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
The freighter pilot will get Insurance, so the freighter lost is much less than 1B. With the many nerfs to ganking (lowered CONCORD response time, no insurance payout, no slingshot ganking, looter getting suspect flagged, nerf to sec safaris), the risk of ganking has been lowered as well.
They get the insurance on the ship, not the contents. Whats the point in having a freighter if the only way to keep it safe is to not carry anything. I ship most things in an orca because it's faster and safer than a freighter. That's a pretty dumb position for freighters to be in.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Draconigea
Angry Angels Nachrichtendienst
#12 - 2013-10-17 15:39:01 UTC
First of all...Multiboxing with software aid IS not allowed...

Then...

Velicitia wrote:

Scout out ahead, freighter gives position after the jump, so logi can figure distance/get in range and 'ceptor can get in web range. Freighter starts to align, logi gets reps (staggered) 'ceptor webs it (2 webs) to dramatically reduce top speed (friegher instantly jumps to ~80% max speed and warps).

Really the logi is just insurance in case the freighter doesn't instantly warp. It won't necessarily keep the freighter alive if the camp has enough alpha to just outright kill the freighter (although, if the scout sees the camp on dscan, then the freighter shouldn't jump)

Have falcon or griffin on standby in case tackler.

Warp, rinse, repeat.


Why so complicated?
Take a Rapier with 2-3 webbers and Recon Ship to at least 4...
Makes a 34-40km web...so it is not neccessary to give position of the freighter...

If you use this, the freighter will get an align time of about 1 second (targeting time of the Rapier)....
And the fastest cargo-scanner needs 3 seconds + targeting time....

And if you dont have any clue, what is inside a freighter, noone will attack it with the effort of 25 ppl.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-10-17 15:56:35 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
You forget that with BS needed to gank you still had the insurance payout for ganking ships, which was removed since then. The break-even point has for a long long time been 1Billion ISK, that hasn't changed.

That's definitely not the the case. At most it costs 200m isk to destroy a freighter in 0.5, which would make the break even point 400m. The only saving grace is that gankers are more greedy than that and wait for fat loot.


Your definition of "most" seems interesting, seeing as the 200M ISK is only calculating with catalysts, which you can only use when you have enough people. The less people, the more the cost. And, I'm sure that comes as a shock for you, but most systems in Eve aren't 0.5 security status.

Quote:
Ganking freighters IS easy. It's easier than any other gank since the resists can't be changed. More would die every day if gankers chose to kill more, that's all. It's not difficulty limiting them. Freighters are at the mercy of gankers.


There are ways to change the resists (command ships and gang links come to mind) - it's not the fault of the gankers when freighter pilots don't want to protect their assets by flying solo. Coming back to the question: If freighter ganking is easy, why do so many freighters fly without getting ganked? Surely, if a freighter was an easy target, you would see them destroyed much more often. Like mining barges/exhumers before their rebalance died a lot because it was easy. Freighters dieing is a much rarer occurrence than barges/exhumers dieing - even after the latter got enhanced defenses. If freighter ganking was so easy and profitable, why do so few freighters die to ganks each day?

Quote:
They get the insurance on the ship, not the contents. Whats the point in having a freighter if the only way to keep it safe is to not carry anything. I ship most things in an orca because it's faster and safer than a freighter. That's a pretty dumb position for freighters to be in.


Oh, I thought the person I quoted was referring to the value of the hull. If you carry only 1Billion ISK in your freighter, you are in most cases safe - except if you made an enemy that doesn't care about ISK efficiency and kills you for strategic reasons or out of revenge. Not only do you have to account for the ISK the gank ships cost, but also for the opportunity cost for the gankers, who could spend their time ratting, mining or exploring.

A properly escorted freighter can transport multiple billion ISK in safety - again, it's not the fault of the ganker if the freighter pilot doesn't protect his assets.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#14 - 2013-10-17 16:17:57 UTC
Draconigea wrote:
First of all...Multiboxing with software aid IS not allowed...

Really?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3069125#post3069125

CCP have stated they don;t officially endorse it but the use of it is not against the EULA as long as it breaches none of the other terms of the EULA. ISBoxer is used by miners and gankers every single day, so if it's suddenly not allowed, they are doing a terrible job at enforcing it.

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Your definition of "most" seems interesting, seeing as the 200M ISK is only calculating with catalysts, which you can only use when you have enough people. The less people, the more the cost. And, I'm sure that comes as a shock for you, but most systems in Eve aren't 0.5 security status.
Well yeah, I mean at most with catas. Of course you can gank it with anything. You could gank it with T3s if you really wanted. But with catas in a 0.5 you can do it as low as 120m (possibly lower, but not that I've seen) and up to 200m. If you can't gank a freighter with 200m of catalysts, you are doing something wrong.
And the core freighter routes take you through 0.5s.

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
There are ways to change the resists (command ships and gang links come to mind) - it's not the fault of the gankers when freighter pilots don't want to protect their assets by flying solo. Coming back to the question: If freighter ganking is easy, why do so many freighters fly without getting ganked? Surely, if a freighter was an easy target, you would see them destroyed much more often. Like mining barges/exhumers before their rebalance died a lot because it was easy. Freighters dieing is a much rarer occurrence than barges/exhumers dieing - even after the latter got enhanced defenses. If freighter ganking was so easy and profitable, why do so few freighters die to ganks each day?
They change the raw HP, not the resists. They are generally taken into account when working out a freighter gank. I've got a spreadsheet somewhere you chuck in the freighter and it tells you how many catas you need in each system.
Barges die more cos they can be soloed easily. Freighters need a group and there are less ganking groups. That doesn't make it hard to gank a freighter though.

Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
A properly escorted freighter can transport multiple billion ISK in safety - again, it's not the fault of the ganker if the freighter pilot doesn't protect his assets.
At best you can put a few ECM with it and web it. Because the gankers get to fire first, escorting a freighter is actually harder to do in high sec that in low sec. Smart freighter gankers spend a smidge of their profits to keep their sec status up with tags and don't podkill, so you don't get to fire until they've got a volley off.

Freighters simply aren't given the means to defend themselves. I'm not saying freighters should be ungankable, but they should give the pilot the chance to fit then to defend them. If you want to choose to not fit your freighter properly, then you deserve to die, but you should at least be given the chance.

Putting aside the fact that gankers want to gank with as much ease as possible, all the other ships are getting balanced, so why not freighters? Why should freighters not be at least looked at?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Draconigea
Angry Angels Nachrichtendienst
#15 - 2013-10-17 16:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconigea
Lucas Kell wrote:

CCP have stated they don;t officially endorse it but the use of it is not against the EULA as long as it breaches none of the other terms of the EULA. ISBoxer is used by miners and gankers every single day, so if it's suddenly not allowed, they are doing a terrible job at enforcing it.

Nice link....did you read it?

GM Lelouch wrote:

Multiboxing is not inherently in violation of our EULA, a player is not breaking the EVE game rules by virtue of simultaneously operating multiple accounts alone. Multiboxing software can however be in violation of the EULA.

The only thing is, that they DONT allow or disallow a specific tool. So ISBox is not illegal itself...but the FUNCTION of sending a single command to multiple clients IS a violation of the ToS:

Quote:

3. You may not use your own or any third-party software,macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


It is as clear as it can be...but just because too many idiots are using this tool, all believe its legal...

If you speak german, read this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3588651#post3588651
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-10-17 16:33:47 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Well yeah, I mean at most with catas. Of course you can gank it with anything. You could gank it with T3s if you really wanted. But with catas in a 0.5 you can do it as low as 120m (possibly lower, but not that I've seen) and up to 200m. If you can't gank a freighter with 200m of catalysts, you are doing something wrong.
And the core freighter routes take you through 0.5s.


You can only gank with catalysts if you have enough people to do it. But with catalysts you:

- need a bumper (Can't gank under gateguns, not an issue with Brutix/Talos)
- are extremely vulnerable to ECM, a single griffin will shut off 2-3 catalysts
- can be easily volleyed off the field with an insta-cane

Of course, if the freighter pilot chose to not protect his assets, then this is hardly the fault of the ganker. The fact that only a few freighters die each day to suicide ganks shows that it isn't as easy as you make it seem.

Quote:
They change the raw HP, not the resists. They are generally taken into account when working out a freighter gank. I've got a spreadsheet somewhere you chuck in the freighter and it tells you how many catas you need in each system.


I'm pretty sure that the description of [url]http://eve-kill.net/?a=invtype&id=20514[/url] says it changes the shield resistances.

Quote:
Barges die more cos they can be soloed easily. Freighters need a group and there are less ganking groups. That doesn't make it hard to gank a freighter though.


Oh, if ganking freighters was easy, why do so few of them die to suicide ganks? Surely the (supposedly) immense profits would draw a lot of people to this profession of ganking freighters.

Quote:
At best you can put a few ECM with it and web it. Because the gankers get to fire first, escorting a freighter is actually harder to do in high sec that in low sec. Smart freighter gankers spend a smidge of their profits to keep their sec status up with tags and don't podkill, so you don't get to fire until they've got a volley off.


Why don't the freighter pilots employ the same tactics and use an alt to draw CONCORD on grid repeatedly?

Quote:
Freighters simply aren't given the means to defend themselves. I'm not saying freighters should be ungankable, but they should give the pilot the chance to fit then to defend them. If you want to choose to not fit your freighter properly, then you deserve to die, but you should at least be given the chance.

Putting aside the fact that gankers want to gank with as much ease as possible, all the other ships are getting balanced, so why not freighters? Why should freighters not be at least looked at?


Oh, of course Freighters should be looked at and given choices. They just shouldn't be buffed, because that is not needed. A good proposal was:

Reduce freighter EHP, agility and cargohold, give them lowslots:

Use cargohold expanders for same cargospace as current freighters
Use nanofibers for same agility as current freighters
Use reinforced bulkheads and DCU for same EHP as current freighters

Bam. Choices.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-10-17 16:38:04 UTC
Draconigea wrote:
It is as clear as it can be...but just because too many idiots are using this tool, all believe its legal...

If you speak german, read this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3588651#post3588651


How is a post by some random GM in some random language important?
Draconigea
Angry Angels Nachrichtendienst
#18 - 2013-10-17 16:42:02 UTC
Random GM? Karidor is Senior-GM....and again...GM Lelouch said NOTHING different...
Vrenth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-10-17 16:56:52 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Draconigea wrote:
It is as clear as it can be...but just because too many idiots are using this tool, all believe its legal...

If you speak german, read this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3588651#post3588651


How is a post by some random GM in some random language important?


Because the text he quoted is in english, fool... from the english EULA that everyone agrees to before logging into the game.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-10-17 17:01:03 UTC
Vrenth wrote:
Because the text he quoted is in english, fool... from the english EULA that everyone agrees to before logging into the game.


For all I know he could have said:

...quote of the english part of the eula...

"That means that you are allowed to have your input sent to multiple windows, because that function isn't against the eula."

How many people using programs to send key-/mouseinput to multiple windows have been banned?
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