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Major Warp Speed problems

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Jason Itiner
Harmless People
#161 - 2013-10-28 11:33:34 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Altrue wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I completely agree that these kinds of changes are very disruptive to existing tactics, but disruptive changes provide content and allow the best minds to rise to the top. Disruptive changes are intrinsically valuable.


I couldn't have said it better. It will certainly enable more destruction than the current system, since interceptors will be able to be on you very very quick after scanning you. But it is not broken since you can still find out what's happening with your Dscan if you see combat probes, and also because the cavalry (BC, BS) will take more time to arrive. Interdictors and other small tacklers may have to survive longer than before, actually. Thus making them both more important and more fun to fly.

About Heavy Interdictors, remember that without implants it won't be significantly faster than now. And with implants, since it cannot equip other implant sets for resilience, the Heavy Interdictor won't be very hard to kill if you're coordinated enough.

Edit :
seth Hendar wrote:

many other issues are caused by this, and the "on grid but not on overview yet" ship is just another occurence caused by the same problem.

this also cause point to not apply, ship not being decloakced etc...


You're considering a few points for being the norm, like for instance the natural reaction delay when a ship is on the overview but still coming out of warp. And it is indeed true that this delay will be shorter, or negated, in Rubicon. (At least for small ships because for others it will be significantly longer)... But maybe being less safe, or having to deploy more means to reach the same level of safety (scouts, D-scan, overall higher attention) is not a bad change.

About the point thing, it happens in both ways since you can also hear 'warp drive active' with your pod and be scrambled right after (true story).

And concerning the decloak, that's true but is it necessarily a bad thing ? If you're moving too fast it's because you want to cover a lot of volume in a minimum amount of time. Often because you are moving randomly, aimlessly to find your cloaked target. But then you uncloaking your opponent is just a matter of pure luck, and we know how bad gameplay based on luck can be for both parts (*cough* ECM *cough*). Whereas if you have carefully noted the distance and direction where your ennemi cloaked, you are much less likely to miss him due to server tick because you won't burn at full speed for a random duration.

the delay is not negated, you are actually bubbled BEFORE the ship even show up on grid.

from your point of view, you are actually bubbled by NOTHING, the bubble just appears out of thin air


And then you see what sustains the bubble, spend like ten seconds locking it up, and blow it to kingdom come with a salvo or a flight of drones. Problem solved.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#162 - 2013-10-28 11:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Jason Itiner wrote:
I see the points all the naysayers bring up, but I honestly don't see the reason they bring them up. It's not like a bubble permanently burns out the warp drive, the moment the interdictor is destroyed, the bubble collapses and everyone's free to engage warp and scramble. Fozzie's suggestion is perfectly reasonable, I can't even fathom why he has to point out the obvious.

An interdictor lands on grid and throws out a bubble, but ten seconds later it's locked up and destroyed by the escort, by fighters, by smartbombs, by a bomber wing, or whatever. The bubble collapses, and everyone can leave like nothing happened. If you have enemies en route, you still only need to take out the interdictor and weather out the assault until warp becomes clear again.
There's a very good reason you see capital ships in real life moving in fleets of escorts and logistical/technical ships, and not the entire US carrier fleet in one bunch.


dude why are you even in this discussion? it's clear that you have no ideea about pvp, and then why are you posting here?

for example:
Quote:
the moment the interdictor is destroyed, the bubble collapses and everyone's free to engage warp and scramble

that's not how it's work. a dictor buble will remain up after dictor die; also that invizible dictor can light a cyno for example, and so on....
your entire post is not even close on how eve works in 0.0 so pls stick with the things you at least "fathom" how they work. like mining?


Altrue wrote:
[

I couldn't have said it better. It will certainly enable more destruction than the current system, since interceptors will be able to be on you very very quick after scanning you. But it is not broken since you can still find out what's happening with your Dscan if you see combat probes, and also because the cavalry (BC, BS) will take more time to arrive. Interdictors and other small tacklers may have to survive longer than before, actually. Thus making them both more important and more fun to fly.

About Heavy Interdictors, remember that without implants it won't be significantly faster than now. And with implants, since it cannot equip other implant sets for resilience, the Heavy Interdictor won't be very hard to kill if you're coordinated enough.


again ppl talking out of their a**. have you ever been in a fleet fight with some hundreds ppl in local? did you ever opened your scanner and look at it? there are TENS of probes out in a fight like this. what you gonna do? warp around all day till dt?

also, all the time the dictor will need is several seconds to bubble and light a cyno, for example, and you will have an entire fleet of "not that fast hictors" on top of you;
doh,i don't even know why i bother to explain eve to retads...
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#163 - 2013-10-28 11:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
Jason Itiner wrote:
I see the points all the naysayers bring up, but I honestly don't see the reason they bring them up. It's not like a bubble permanently burns out the warp drive, the moment the interdictor is destroyed, the bubble collapses and everyone's free to engage warp and scramble. Fozzie's suggestion is perfectly reasonable, I can't even fathom why he has to point out the obvious.

An interdictor lands on grid and throws out a bubble, but ten seconds later it's locked up and destroyed by the escort, by fighters, by smartbombs, by a bomber wing, or whatever. The bubble collapses, and everyone can leave like nothing happened. If you have enemies en route, you still only need to take out the interdictor and weather out the assault until warp becomes clear again.
There's a very good reason you see capital ships in real life moving in fleets of escorts and logistical/technical ships, and not the entire US carrier fleet in one bunch.



no, the bubble stays up, it's only the heavy interdictor which will lose the bubble when dieing... interdictor throws out an object in space that doesn't care if the interdictor dies or not... it stays for over 1 min. (forgot the exact time)... and it's not just the interdictor that will be the threat, it's the fact that it's only warping on your fleet to prevent you from escaping... escaping from a larger fleet that plans to destroy your fleet without you standing a chance (imagine 100-500 goons landing on your 20-50man gang right after a dictor landed that you never even knew was coming and couldn't see before the bubble was there... and 5 sec later all the goons land on you and your all dead 5-10 sec later)

I will admit there is a problem with our own all this fear mongering... it requires a warp in... such as probes or spy, login trap or such... which means, anytime you see probes on scan you have to dock up :D

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#164 - 2013-10-28 11:58:51 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Zilero wrote:
I think this new warp mechanism is wonderful because its basically a giant nerf and **** you to:

1. Supers and Titans, heck all capitals now I think about it
2. Anything that fights at range and use "being aligned" as their main defence.


In other words CCP has decided it was about time to get rid of nano-faggotry and supers.

I for one feel very happy about these changes \o/.

Edit: In other words, man up and brawl.

Indeed. Abloobloo, my fleet is committed! I have to shoot the mans instead of running away!

Harden the **** up already.

No comment to the PL guys crying about their super fleet. Literally not a single person not in PL feels for you and your crocodile tears there.


People like Shadoo literally have fleets of neutral dictor alts at their disposal. This kind of change will make it extremely painful for subcap fleets that are roaming to be going up against people who have gangs sitting on a titan with dictor alts roaming around a region.

As for this hilarity of "bring subcaps that can kill dictors/fast warping ships" LOL. We'll buy hictors with implant sets and t2 warp speed rigs if it lets us kill fleets faster. For just a whopping 30mil I can take a broadsword and give it x2 t2 warp rigs and make it go 5.9au/s. I heard that these implants are a 53% warp speed modifier?


That is a roughly 9au/s hictor. Gl finding any subcaps, other then a blob, that can deal with that fast enough. And if you don't think people like PL won't fork over the isk for a hic that gives an enemy 2-3 seconds to react then LOL. The people who will suffer the worst from this change are going to be the small guys, not us.

Yeah, right, that must be why you're the only ones crying about it. The rest of us are just grabbing popcorn.
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#165 - 2013-10-28 12:03:27 UTC
Jason Itiner wrote:
I see the points all the naysayers bring up, but I honestly don't see the reason they bring them up. It's not like a bubble permanently burns out the warp drive, the moment the interdictor is destroyed, the bubble collapses and everyone's free to engage warp and scramble. Fozzie's suggestion is perfectly reasonable, I can't even fathom why he has to point out the obvious.

An interdictor lands on grid and throws out a bubble, but ten seconds later it's locked up and destroyed by the escort, by fighters, by smartbombs, by a bomber wing, or whatever. The bubble collapses, and everyone can leave like nothing happened. If you have enemies en route, you still only need to take out the interdictor and weather out the assault until warp becomes clear again.
There's a very good reason you see capital ships in real life moving in fleets of escorts and logistical/technical ships, and not the entire US carrier fleet in one bunch.


This guy must be a troll or high sec noob.
Interdictor's bubble (sabre, flycatcher,heretic,eris) doesn't disappear if dictor dies and u can't shoot bubble if not with smartbomb but capital are slow and range of bubble > than officer smartbomb so u have to approach it.
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#166 - 2013-10-28 12:06:47 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
it stays for over 1 min. (forgot the exact time)


2 minutes

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#167 - 2013-10-28 12:36:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We've actually got some news coming that will happen to make you happy in one way and unhappy on the other. I'll be interested in seeing the whole reaction.


Oh my gawd, gimme gimme gimme those news NAOW!!!

I don't care how and why it will screw meta of non-meta things, I just wanna read something fresh about Rubicon features.

Invalid signature format
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#168 - 2013-10-28 12:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Jason Itiner wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Altrue wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I completely agree that these kinds of changes are very disruptive to existing tactics, but disruptive changes provide content and allow the best minds to rise to the top. Disruptive changes are intrinsically valuable.


I couldn't have said it better. It will certainly enable more destruction than the current system, since interceptors will be able to be on you very very quick after scanning you. But it is not broken since you can still find out what's happening with your Dscan if you see combat probes, and also because the cavalry (BC, BS) will take more time to arrive. Interdictors and other small tacklers may have to survive longer than before, actually. Thus making them both more important and more fun to fly.

About Heavy Interdictors, remember that without implants it won't be significantly faster than now. And with implants, since it cannot equip other implant sets for resilience, the Heavy Interdictor won't be very hard to kill if you're coordinated enough.

Edit :
seth Hendar wrote:

many other issues are caused by this, and the "on grid but not on overview yet" ship is just another occurence caused by the same problem.

this also cause point to not apply, ship not being decloakced etc...


You're considering a few points for being the norm, like for instance the natural reaction delay when a ship is on the overview but still coming out of warp. And it is indeed true that this delay will be shorter, or negated, in Rubicon. (At least for small ships because for others it will be significantly longer)... But maybe being less safe, or having to deploy more means to reach the same level of safety (scouts, D-scan, overall higher attention) is not a bad change.

About the point thing, it happens in both ways since you can also hear 'warp drive active' with your pod and be scrambled right after (true story).

And concerning the decloak, that's true but is it necessarily a bad thing ? If you're moving too fast it's because you want to cover a lot of volume in a minimum amount of time. Often because you are moving randomly, aimlessly to find your cloaked target. But then you uncloaking your opponent is just a matter of pure luck, and we know how bad gameplay based on luck can be for both parts (*cough* ECM *cough*). Whereas if you have carefully noted the distance and direction where your ennemi cloaked, you are much less likely to miss him due to server tick because you won't burn at full speed for a random duration.

the delay is not negated, you are actually bubbled BEFORE the ship even show up on grid.

from your point of view, you are actually bubbled by NOTHING, the bubble just appears out of thin air


And then you see what sustains the bubble, spend like ten seconds locking it up, and blow it to kingdom come with a salvo or a flight of drones. Problem solved.

and in the maen time, the rest of is fleet is already landed, and the dictors is the last of your problem.
oh, and killing the dictor doesn't make the bubble magically vanish
do you actually play eve?
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#169 - 2013-10-28 14:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven
Server too slow to handle warp speeds, warping out as soon as you bubble in dic and rewarping back is faster and safer than staying on grid. That is the problem.

And it is not an issue with caps/supercaps alone, it is true for all fleet concepts. Ratters getting out of anoms and maybe getting into complexes for safety or move out to L4 grinding instead of living in null sec (after a few weeks of Rubicon deployment). Sounds like an awesome feature to make null even more empty than now.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Tikitina
Doomheim
#170 - 2013-10-28 14:58:28 UTC
Still looking forward to these changes. Will be very interesting to see the results, especially after all these tears.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#171 - 2013-10-28 15:03:33 UTC
Tikitina wrote:
Still looking forward to these changes. Will be very interesting to see the results, especially after all these tears.



By tears do you mean people complaining about being tackled by invisible ships? Because that seems to be a pretty legitimate complaint.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#172 - 2013-10-28 15:06:20 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286842 is what I was referring to.

Dictor v2 rebalance changes bubble launchers significantly, and adds a lot of survivability to dictors but removes some of their warp speed in compensation.

They'll still be able to "appear" on grid with rigs and implants, but like I said before we'll be watching how these changes shake out and adjusting as needed.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#173 - 2013-10-28 15:09:12 UTC
after watching that eve vegas vid of an inty doing 70 AU in a few seconds i immediately thought how OP is that

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#174 - 2013-10-28 15:09:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
CCP Fozzie wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286842 is what I was referring to.

Dictor v2 rebalance changes bubble launchers significantly, and adds a lot of survivability to dictors but removes some of their warp speed in compensation.

They'll still be able to "appear" on grid with rigs and implants, but like I said before we'll be watching how these changes shake out and adjusting as needed.


It isnt just dictors though. Interceptors, particular t3 fits, and particular t2 cruiser fits can all do the same thing.

I mean, its not like you can fire on the interceptor if you get your scan res high enough, or get warning of it coming if you mash dscan often enough. It just appears on grid having already scrammed you, without appearing on dscan or appearing on grid without having locked you.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#175 - 2013-10-28 15:13:47 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286842 is what I was referring to.

Dictor v2 rebalance changes bubble launchers significantly, and adds a lot of survivability to dictors but removes some of their warp speed in compensation.

They'll still be able to "appear" on grid with rigs and implants, but like I said before we'll be watching how these changes shake out and adjusting as needed.


It isnt just dictors though. Interceptors, particular t3 fits, and particular t2 cruiser fits can all do the same thing.

I mean, its not like you can fire on the interceptor if you get your scan res high enough, or get warning of it coming if you mash dscan often enough. It just appears on grid having already scrammed you, without appearing on dscan or appearing on grid without having locked you.


It's also very vulnerable to anti-support fire. Like I said, I'm not currently convinced that the warp speeds possible in the current Rubicon design are detrimental to the game overall. I will however be watching them very carefully so if you disagree please take advantage of the power of these ships as much as you can and enjoy the benefits while demonstrating to us why we should change it.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#176 - 2013-10-28 15:14:15 UTC
The issue is not that they travel too quickly, but that they decelerate too quickly.

As I said before, make warp acceleration scale with the square root of the warp speed, instead of warp speed.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#177 - 2013-10-28 15:18:04 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286842 is what I was referring to.

Dictor v2 rebalance changes bubble launchers significantly, and adds a lot of survivability to dictors but removes some of their warp speed in compensation.

They'll still be able to "appear" on grid with rigs and implants, but like I said before we'll be watching how these changes shake out and adjusting as needed.


It isnt just dictors though. Interceptors, particular t3 fits, and particular t2 cruiser fits can all do the same thing.

I mean, its not like you can fire on the interceptor if you get your scan res high enough, or get warning of it coming if you mash dscan often enough. It just appears on grid having already scrammed you, without appearing on dscan or appearing on grid without having locked you.

The interdictors are a special case though. Everything else you can just get rid of by applying sufficient firepower. If a dictor bubbles you, that bubble is there to stay for 2 minutes even if you kill it.

I agree that getting bubbled by something you can't see isn't good game design. A 2-3 second activation delay after coming out of warp would go a long way - especially as it would give you at least a small chance to kill the dictor.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#178 - 2013-10-28 15:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
CCP Fozzie wrote:
[

It's also very vulnerable to anti-support fire.


Im not entirely certain a bricktanked proteus is vulnerable to anti support fire, certainly not in the 3-15s or so you have to kill it before the rest of the gang is on you.

Edit: And again, its not about killing it or not killing it. Its about being tackled by ships that do not appear on grid or dscan before scramming you. Cloaky ships have a great number of disadvantages to compensate for their ability to do this. Bombers are very low hp, and blops bs have low scan res and no covops cloak. Alll other cloaky ships have a recalibration delay.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#179 - 2013-10-28 15:54:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

It's also very vulnerable to anti-support fire. Like I said, I'm not currently convinced that the warp speeds possible in the current Rubicon design are detrimental to the game overall. I will however be watching them very carefully so if you disagree please take advantage of the power of these ships as much as you can and enjoy the benefits while demonstrating to us why we should change it.

So Goons should really get on to abusing Drone assign? Blink
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#180 - 2013-10-28 15:58:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286842 is what I was referring to.

Dictor v2 rebalance changes bubble launchers significantly, and adds a lot of survivability to dictors but removes some of their warp speed in compensation.

They'll still be able to "appear" on grid with rigs and implants, but like I said before we'll be watching how these changes shake out and adjusting as needed.


It isnt just dictors though. Interceptors, particular t3 fits, and particular t2 cruiser fits can all do the same thing.

I mean, its not like you can fire on the interceptor if you get your scan res high enough, or get warning of it coming if you mash dscan often enough. It just appears on grid having already scrammed you, without appearing on dscan or appearing on grid without having locked you.


It's also very vulnerable to anti-support fire. Like I said, I'm not currently convinced that the warp speeds possible in the current Rubicon design are detrimental to the game overall. I will however be watching them very carefully so if you disagree please take advantage of the power of these ships as much as you can and enjoy the benefits while demonstrating to us why we should change it.

But fozzie, its not that they are fast warping, the problem is only that no one can see them before its already landed. If you improved grids also this would be less of a problem... Either by making someone warping in from a long distance be loaded into grid earlier so you see them zoominh towards your grid from a few au away or less, like 100k maybe... Or make visual effect that indicates that in about 1 sec something will land on this spot

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934