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Major Warp Speed problems

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Author
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#141 - 2013-10-28 01:57:01 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One of the great things about stats like this is that we can change them very rapidly. If high grade pirate implant set hictors are so broken that they're gonna become the new meta, demonstrate it and we'll be watching and grateful for the help.

I completely agree that these kinds of changes are very disruptive to existing tactics, but disruptive changes provide content and allow the best minds to rise to the top. Disruptive changes are intrinsically valuable.

Nobody is gonna ban you guys for overusing this if it's too powerful, so go forth and theorycraft and prove your assertions in the wild.


Personly I don't think fast warping HICs will be a huge problem... but perhaps to balance this new change, dics and hics could have a bubble delay from when they come out of warp, even 1-2 sec would be enough to be honest.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#142 - 2013-10-28 02:13:37 UTC
Capital MJD

1000MN MWD
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#143 - 2013-10-28 03:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
So we tested this and dictors with t1 warp rigs are able to bubble such that it is literally impossible to warp off in any ship. The "victim ships" (Machariel, muninn, dictors, titan were all tested) are pre-aligned, and given ample verbal warnings on comms that the dictor is coming out of warp etc. The person is told to press warp as soon as the dictor appears on grid. They cannot. They see the dictor appear on grid, press warp and are caught in the bubble.

The strange thing is that a dictor without rigs will land, be seen, the pre-aligned ship will warp, the dictor will bubble, and it will appear as though the pre-aligned ship is warping through a bubble.

I think that there is a problem with the server vs client that actually needs to be fixed here.

This was tested with mulitple different people and this is something that won't just affect supers.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#144 - 2013-10-28 05:57:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
I still dont see how being tackled by invisible ships is a good change. Sure, it shakes things up and is disruptive, but so is allowing ships that are cloaked to shoot while remaining cloaked, or allowing ships to assign drones from off grid.

Edit: Its also just not dictors. You can get it so interceptors can land on grid, lock and scram a target before the target even sees the interceptor on dscan, let alone on grid.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#145 - 2013-10-28 06:01:22 UTC
I wonder if you could get loki warpspeed/scan res high enough that you could land on grid with artylokis and alpha a ship off the field before it can see the lokis on grid.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#146 - 2013-10-28 06:42:33 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I wonder if you could get loki warpspeed/scan res high enough that you could land on grid with artylokis and alpha a ship off the field before it can see the lokis on grid.


It is lacking the sub the do so, sadly.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#147 - 2013-10-28 08:07:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're aware of this behaviour and of your objections.

I disagree with your assessment that this is a major problem, but you are of course welcome to your opinion. We'll be keeping a close eye on this both before launch and after.

I suggest having subcaps that can kill dictors with you.


Love you bro, but quoting this for posterity.

WTB : An image in my signature

Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#148 - 2013-10-28 08:17:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One of the great things about stats like this is that we can change them very rapidly. If high grade pirate

I completely agree that these kinds of changes are very disruptive to existing tactics, but disruptive changes provide content and allow the best minds to rise to the top. Disruptive changes are intrinsically valuable.

Nobody is gonna ban you guys for overusing this if it's too powerful, so go forth and theorycraft and prove your assertions in the wild.



So you might as well delete from database long range weapons since as soon as 1 dictor is in system every ranged fleet from arty muninn to railgun megathron is useless compared to any blaster ship.
Oh well, we can still fit long range weapon on marauders, because being stuck for 1 whole min will not prevent an interceptor to travel 2 systems and tackle me.
Marnoth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#149 - 2013-10-28 08:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Marnoth
Even if you would get data more often it would barely change anything I think, because of the high landing speed it will land almost immediately and I doubt there would be a notable difference to just appearing apart from a smoother visual effect.


I am looking forward to see more fleets getting catched and less warp games, this whole new warp system is really huge and it is impossible to predict the impact of those changes, I have to agree with Fozzie that we just have to wait and see how players adapt and if it is really horrible you can still change it back.
Jack Armour
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2013-10-28 08:30:59 UTC
Jack Armour wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're aware of this behaviour and of your objections.

I disagree with your assessment that this is a major problem, but you are of course welcome to your opinion. We'll be keeping a close eye on this both before launch and after.

I suggest having subcaps that can kill dictors with you.


I can imagine the conversation.

Game designer "Er, we have a problem, warp speed change is too fast for the graphics engine, can we tweak it ?"
Programmer "not easily"
Game designer "it's not a major problem"

I guess that's alright then


The Original programers who introduced the uniform acceleration model, did so because of graphics engine restraints, unfortunately they must have left CCP, collectively forgotten its become a good idea again! I don't believe the current engine can support the feature. It's too late to back track the main selling point of Rubicon. Will we be left with a faulty product, with ghost ships and invisible alpha strikes. Does one get refunds for faulty games knowingly broken?
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#151 - 2013-10-28 09:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Michael Harari wrote:
I still dont see how being tackled by invisible ships is a good change. Sure, it shakes things up and is disruptive, but so is allowing ships that are cloaked to shoot while remaining cloaked, or allowing ships to assign drones from off grid.

Edit: Its also just not dictors. You can get it so interceptors can land on grid, lock and scram a target before the target even sees the interceptor on dscan, let alone on grid.


did anyone tested this with bombers? can you bomb while not showing on grid?



CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're aware of this behaviour and of your objections.

I disagree with your assessment that this is a major problem, but you are of course welcome to your opinion. We'll be keeping a close eye on this both before launch and after.

I suggest having subcaps that can kill dictors with you.


this replay will be funny if it won't be so sad...
do you know of any subcaps that can kill invisible ships???
how can you play this game and not see how game breaking this "rebalance" will be?

this is not even about supercaps: certain super fleets are already bubbling themself on the field for avoiding emergency warp of dced pilots for f**ks sake; if anything, this will force small/med unafiliated corps that now use their supers to stop using them or to join one of the big coalitions...

but more importat, this will be about long/med range doctrines that will become worthless...
also how will this work in wormhole space? being able to land and bubble a fleet before they even know you are there, before you even show on their scanners? is this a minor problem? really? Shocked

edit: where is CSM in all this? i've seen allot of feedback from them in siphon thread(wonder why) but basically almost zero about this warp speed rebalance stuff...
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#152 - 2013-10-28 09:11:30 UTC
I am from PL and I like all the changes, This is all.....

I would also like to thank Makalu Zarya for been a total knob head and using the “When people unsub their supers and you lose 1000s of active characters maybe you'll listen.” Line.

I would just like to say this to him “YOU ARE WRONG” just like the other 10000 times people like you have said people will unsub there supers because of this and that. Yet here we are 2013 and still people have them are still subbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y6TqxLmxIo
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#153 - 2013-10-28 09:32:34 UTC
Marnoth wrote:
I have to agree with Fozzie that we just have to wait and see how players adapt and if it is really horrible you can still change it back.


No, just no!
That's why we have a test server.
If something is broken on test server we don't have to wait a disaster on TQ.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#154 - 2013-10-28 10:03:19 UTC
every time anyone in pizza posts im embarrassed to be in pizza

Cry
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#155 - 2013-10-28 10:28:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're aware of this behaviour and of your objections.

I disagree with your assessment that this is a major problem, but you are of course welcome to your opinion. We'll be keeping a close eye on this both before launch and after.

I suggest having subcaps that can kill dictors with you.

sorry but this is not a specific issue with the warp speed, it just bring up the real root issue for everyone to see:

server tick is too slow.

many other issues are caused by this, and the "on grid but not on overview yet" ship is just another occurence caused by the same problem.

this also cause point to not apply, ship not being decloakced etc...

this has been reported to CCP countless time for a year +, but judging by your answer, you will keep ignoring it....Cry
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#156 - 2013-10-28 10:36:13 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Seriously, there is no need for the cloak because it will actually just slow you down with a cloaking delay timer.

We will literally be able to shut down whole regions of any gate traffic with this ****. It is kind of appalling that CCP doesn't realize this is broken. I spent 30 seconds figuring out how to abuse this.

like everyone else except CCP, who stil ignore it even if we bring it right under their nose....as usual....this is really getting pathetic, F*** the test server, every single time there is constructive feedback and real issues pointed out, the only answer we have is either NO answer, or "gtfo working as intended"

this was done for uni inv, exploration, now this...(and those are only the ones i remember).

next time i have to sub, pretty sur my wallet will say "gtfo" too.....
Jason Itiner
Harmless People
#157 - 2013-10-28 11:02:37 UTC
I see the points all the naysayers bring up, but I honestly don't see the reason they bring them up. It's not like a bubble permanently burns out the warp drive, the moment the interdictor is destroyed, the bubble collapses and everyone's free to engage warp and scramble. Fozzie's suggestion is perfectly reasonable, I can't even fathom why he has to point out the obvious.

An interdictor lands on grid and throws out a bubble, but ten seconds later it's locked up and destroyed by the escort, by fighters, by smartbombs, by a bomber wing, or whatever. The bubble collapses, and everyone can leave like nothing happened. If you have enemies en route, you still only need to take out the interdictor and weather out the assault until warp becomes clear again.
There's a very good reason you see capital ships in real life moving in fleets of escorts and logistical/technical ships, and not the entire US carrier fleet in one bunch.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#158 - 2013-10-28 11:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I completely agree that these kinds of changes are very disruptive to existing tactics, but disruptive changes provide content and allow the best minds to rise to the top. Disruptive changes are intrinsically valuable.


I couldn't have said it better. It will certainly enable more destruction than the current system, since interceptors will be able to be on you very very quick after scanning you. But it is not broken since you can still find out what's happening with your Dscan if you see combat probes, and also because the cavalry (BC, BS) will take more time to arrive. Interdictors and other small tacklers may have to survive longer than before, actually. Thus making them both more important and more fun to fly.

About Heavy Interdictors, remember that without implants it won't be significantly faster than now. And with implants, since it cannot equip other implant sets for resilience, the Heavy Interdictor won't be very hard to kill if you're coordinated enough.

Edit :
seth Hendar wrote:

many other issues are caused by this, and the "on grid but not on overview yet" ship is just another occurence caused by the same problem.

this also cause point to not apply, ship not being decloakced etc...


You're considering a few points for being the norm, like for instance the natural reaction delay when a ship is on the overview but still coming out of warp. And it is indeed true that this delay will be shorter, or negated, in Rubicon. (At least for small ships because for others it will be significantly longer)... But maybe being less safe, or having to deploy more means to reach the same level of safety (scouts, D-scan, overall higher attention) is not a bad change.

About the point thing, it happens in both ways since you can also hear 'warp drive active' with your pod and be scrambled right after (true story).

And concerning the decloak, that's true but is it necessarily a bad thing ? If you're moving too fast it's because you want to cover a lot of volume in a minimum amount of time. Often because you are moving randomly, aimlessly to find your cloaked target. But then you uncloaking your opponent is just a matter of pure luck, and we know how bad gameplay based on luck can be for both parts (*cough* ECM *cough*). Whereas if you have carefully noted the distance and direction where your ennemi cloaked, you are much less likely to miss him due to server tick because you won't burn at full speed for a random duration.

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Montami
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#159 - 2013-10-28 11:16:41 UTC
Capqu wrote:
every time anyone in pizza posts im embarrassed to be in pizza

Cry


There's no need to *** guzzle PL, Capqu. They are already unsubbing all their supers and quitting the game. It's not worth it.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#160 - 2013-10-28 11:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Altrue wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I completely agree that these kinds of changes are very disruptive to existing tactics, but disruptive changes provide content and allow the best minds to rise to the top. Disruptive changes are intrinsically valuable.


I couldn't have said it better. It will certainly enable more destruction than the current system, since interceptors will be able to be on you very very quick after scanning you. But it is not broken since you can still find out what's happening with your Dscan if you see combat probes, and also because the cavalry (BC, BS) will take more time to arrive. Interdictors and other small tacklers may have to survive longer than before, actually. Thus making them both more important and more fun to fly.

About Heavy Interdictors, remember that without implants it won't be significantly faster than now. And with implants, since it cannot equip other implant sets for resilience, the Heavy Interdictor won't be very hard to kill if you're coordinated enough.

Edit :
seth Hendar wrote:

many other issues are caused by this, and the "on grid but not on overview yet" ship is just another occurence caused by the same problem.

this also cause point to not apply, ship not being decloakced etc...


You're considering a few points for being the norm, like for instance the natural reaction delay when a ship is on the overview but still coming out of warp. And it is indeed true that this delay will be shorter, or negated, in Rubicon. (At least for small ships because for others it will be significantly longer)... But maybe being less safe, or having to deploy more means to reach the same level of safety (scouts, D-scan, overall higher attention) is not a bad change.

About the point thing, it happens in both ways since you can also hear 'warp drive active' with your pod and be scrambled right after (true story).

And concerning the decloak, that's true but is it necessarily a bad thing ? If you're moving too fast it's because you want to cover a lot of volume in a minimum amount of time. Often because you are moving randomly, aimlessly to find your cloaked target. But then you uncloaking your opponent is just a matter of pure luck, and we know how bad gameplay based on luck can be for both parts (*cough* ECM *cough*). Whereas if you have carefully noted the distance and direction where your ennemi cloaked, you are much less likely to miss him due to server tick because you won't burn at full speed for a random duration.

the delay is not negated, you are actually bubbled BEFORE the ship even show up on grid.

from your point of view, you are actually bubbled by NOTHING, the bubble just appears out of thin air


regarding the decloak, please be a inty pilot before even comenting, an inty doing 4200m /S will miss the decloack 50% of the time even in succesfull "go through"

the point cannot be applied for anything warping under 2 sec when he crosses a gate for example, since you need 1 sec to lock then 1 sec for the point to activate, so here we are, back to the server tick issue

i really suggest you test it on SISI, it's pretty clear once you play around with intys + new warp speed or dictors, how broken it is