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Major Warp Speed problems

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Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2013-10-29 23:42:58 UTC
Fozzie,

A hard-cap on deceleration lasting for 2-3 ticks/seconds ON-GRID would fix basically any problems I have with this change. Basically, there needs to be enough time for someone who has their finger over the warp button and is pre-aligned to be able to warp off against a dictor. It just is game breaking for a dictor with warp rigs to magically appear and at the same moment it appears on grid to pop a bubble, making it LITERALLY impossible for anyone to be able to warp off.

Overall the changes seem ok, although I think bs and cap warp speeds could have been nerfed a bit too hard but that doesn't really seem glaringly wrong.
Circumstantial Evidence
#242 - 2013-10-30 05:29:10 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:
We discovered another funny side effect of all this which I forgot about. The Rancer type smartbombing gate camps no longer work for ships that appear instantly, since you simply don't load grid until you are already on the gate. Negative ten won't be too happy about this.
I think they will quickly figure out the timings to mash F1-F8 when the unlucky enter local. Even better if they have a scout watching the entry gate, to tell the smartbomber what ship type is coming.
Dutch Freight
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2013-10-30 08:15:06 UTC
Giullare wrote:
i'm still obsessed by the 15+ au/s bubble immune cyno ceptor traveling 3 systems/min i pointed out in another thread. Now it will go even faster with warp implants, light cyno out of grid or even out scanner and then a sabre will land on you in 1.1 sec.


If you missed the EvE Vegas info about Warp Implants , you may also missed that CCP stated that there will be a new ship which even warps faster then the intercepter SOON TM
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#244 - 2013-10-30 09:23:36 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
We discovered another funny side effect of all this which I forgot about. The Rancer type smartbombing gate camps no longer work for ships that appear instantly, since you simply don't load grid until you are already on the gate. Negative ten won't be too happy about this.
I think they will quickly figure out the timings to mash F1-F8 when the unlucky enter local. Even better if they have a scout watching the entry gate, to tell the smartbomber what ship type is coming.

not sur it would work, the ships now insta appears on gate, and in fact, the moment they appear they are already within the session change.

and if they are not on your grid, you cannot damage them from game echanic pov (think about it like the grid walls, you are at 2Km from another ship, but with a grid wall between you two: you cannot see or even damage him with smartbomb).

same here, the moment the target enter grids, it is already on gate, within the session change (so it's invuln)
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#245 - 2013-10-30 09:40:02 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:


When people unsub their supers and you lose 1000s of active characters maybe you'll listen.


Oh no. Like many of us would have a problem with this. Death to supercaps.
Reiisha
#246 - 2013-10-30 10:15:39 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:
I realize this probably has to do with server ticks, but this doesn't really excuse it and it entirely broken mechanic.

I can totally see alliances going "No more supers in 0.0 until this is fixed" sort of thing going around. Not to mention tier 3 snipe BCs will simply stop being used as they will get insta-bubbled every time without seeing it either, and the list goes on.


So fights might actually happen?

What a shock! 0-o

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Zilero
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2013-10-30 12:29:00 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:
We discovered another funny side effect of all this which I forgot about. The Rancer type smartbombing gate camps no longer work for ships that appear instantly, since you simply don't load grid until you are already on the gate. Negative ten won't be too happy about this.


Come on, you guys already knew this seeing as this is the main reason for all the PL + other elite PVP tears in this thread.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#248 - 2013-10-30 12:40:59 UTC
Zilero wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
We discovered another funny side effect of all this which I forgot about. The Rancer type smartbombing gate camps no longer work for ships that appear instantly, since you simply don't load grid until you are already on the gate. Negative ten won't be too happy about this.


Come on, you guys already knew this seeing as this is the main reason for all the PL + other elite PVP tears in this thread.

That is pretty neat actually. Big smile

How to win EVE
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#249 - 2013-10-30 13:29:36 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
We discovered another funny side effect of all this which I forgot about. The Rancer type smartbombing gate camps no longer work for ships that appear instantly, since you simply don't load grid until you are already on the gate. Negative ten won't be too happy about this.
I think they will quickly figure out the timings to mash F1-F8 when the unlucky enter local. Even better if they have a scout watching the entry gate, to tell the smartbomber what ship type is coming.

not sur it would work, the ships now insta appears on gate, and in fact, the moment they appear they are already within the session change.

and if they are not on your grid, you cannot damage them from game echanic pov (think about it like the grid walls, you are at 2Km from another ship, but with a grid wall between you two: you cannot see or even damage him with smartbomb).

same here, the moment the target enter grids, it is already on gate, within the session change (so it's invuln)


It's all sounding a bit broken on the deceleration side.
Insta appear on grid and ^^ this.

These are the game engine not keeping pace with the speed from the sound of things as such it should not be release in this state.

Propose that deceleration remain the same as today and only the acceleration phase is linked to warp speed.
No one cares if a ceptor insta disappears as it warps off , its not game breaking.

Still delivering big speed improvements for smaller ships and enabling them to get in front without breaking defensive game play.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#250 - 2013-10-30 13:35:52 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
We discovered another funny side effect of all this which I forgot about. The Rancer type smartbombing gate camps no longer work for ships that appear instantly, since you simply don't load grid until you are already on the gate. Negative ten won't be too happy about this.
I think they will quickly figure out the timings to mash F1-F8 when the unlucky enter local. Even better if they have a scout watching the entry gate, to tell the smartbomber what ship type is coming.

not sur it would work, the ships now insta appears on gate, and in fact, the moment they appear they are already within the session change.

and if they are not on your grid, you cannot damage them from game echanic pov (think about it like the grid walls, you are at 2Km from another ship, but with a grid wall between you two: you cannot see or even damage him with smartbomb).

same here, the moment the target enter grids, it is already on gate, within the session change (so it's invuln)


It's all sounding a bit broken on the deceleration side.
Insta appear on grid and ^^ this.

These are the game engine not keeping pace with the speed from the sound of things as such it should not be release in this state.

Propose that deceleration remain the same as today and only the acceleration phase is linked to warp speed.
No one cares if a ceptor insta disappears as it warps off , its not game breaking.

Still delivering big speed improvements for smaller ships and enabling them to get in front without breaking defensive game play.

or actually solve the REAL issue wich is the server tick, thus you make those proposed changes not game breaking AND solve others issues with locking times, decloacking, modules failing to apply, weird timer / desync on various modules / weapons....


the issue is known, the solution is (according to CCP) pretty easy.......so WHY THE HELL have this not been done yet?

this would solve a metric ton of odd / weird mechanic behaviour AND allow the proposed changes to actually be not broken
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#251 - 2013-10-30 13:45:30 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
We discovered another funny side effect of all this which I forgot about. The Rancer type smartbombing gate camps no longer work for ships that appear instantly, since you simply don't load grid until you are already on the gate. Negative ten won't be too happy about this.
I think they will quickly figure out the timings to mash F1-F8 when the unlucky enter local. Even better if they have a scout watching the entry gate, to tell the smartbomber what ship type is coming.

not sur it would work, the ships now insta appears on gate, and in fact, the moment they appear they are already within the session change.

and if they are not on your grid, you cannot damage them from game echanic pov (think about it like the grid walls, you are at 2Km from another ship, but with a grid wall between you two: you cannot see or even damage him with smartbomb).

same here, the moment the target enter grids, it is already on gate, within the session change (so it's invuln)


It's all sounding a bit broken on the deceleration side.
Insta appear on grid and ^^ this.

These are the game engine not keeping pace with the speed from the sound of things as such it should not be release in this state.

Propose that deceleration remain the same as today and only the acceleration phase is linked to warp speed.
No one cares if a ceptor insta disappears as it warps off , its not game breaking.

Still delivering big speed improvements for smaller ships and enabling them to get in front without breaking defensive game play.

or actually solve the REAL issue wich is the server tick, thus you make those proposed changes not game breaking AND solve others issues with locking times, decloacking, modules failing to apply, weird timer / desync on various modules / weapons....


the issue is known, the solution is (according to CCP) pretty easy.......so WHY THE HELL have this not been done yet?

this would solve a metric ton of odd / weird mechanic behaviour AND allow the proposed changes to actually be not broken


would only work if the entire code base is written for a variable tick rate.

If the current codebase assumes 1 tick a sec then a 2 year rewrite to make the entire games codebase variable tick rate compatible is not a solution that is going to be delivered with rubicon.

Also all those extra calculations are going to increase load and tick rate increae will increase load meaning more servers with less sols per server to deliver that performance.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#252 - 2013-10-30 13:49:21 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:


would only work if the entire code base is written for a variable tick rate.

If the current codebase assumes 1 tick a sec then a 2 year rewrite to make the entire games codebase variable tick rate compatible is not a solution that is going to be delivered with rubicon.

Also all those extra calculations are going to increase load and tick rate increae will increase load meaning more servers with less sols per server to deliver that performance.


wich it is, this is why i turned my sentence the way i did, it has already been said by ccp that changing server tick is easy

yes, it would increase server load, but we have tidi, and having tidi more often and working mechanics seems better to me than less tidi and mechanics which randomly work....or not....or maybe...if they feel like it....
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#253 - 2013-10-30 14:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
seth Hendar wrote:

It has already been said by ccp that changing server tick is easy


Can you link please ?
I'd like to read.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#254 - 2013-10-30 15:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Dav Varan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:

It has already been said by ccp that changing server tick is easy


Can you link please ?
I'd like to read.

here it is: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3781114#post3781114
Circumstantial Evidence
#255 - 2013-10-30 15:11:42 UTC
Because of the current server tick, EVE is one of the most kind MMO's to poor internet connections; I know someone who could play via satellite, 2000ms ping, (2 seconds!) reasonably well once any fight was under way, though he would simply find himself in a station, right after jumping into some insta-lock camps. FPS games like Battlefield were impossible.

I don't believe we're getting any change to server tick any time soon. More than just increased server load, it would also knock out some subscribers.

Looking at deceleration (only) is still worth considering, but in post #190, CCP Fozzie replied directly to a question that mentioned deceleration, and was not persuaded to change anything then.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#256 - 2013-10-30 15:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Chandaris
A ship being able to ghost through d-scan, be on grid and have a bubble, cyno or point up before it actually appears on hostile overview is broken no matter which way you slice if.

If CCP / Fozzie can't recognize this then I wonder if they actually play their own game.

The solution, clearly is to scale warp decelation differantly so that ships still slide on grid to some degree, giving you at least a few seconds warning via d-scan or overview, and a chance to escape if you have taken precautions (full speed aligned, watching d-scan, watching overview, ready to warp)

A lot of caps would still die due to increased warp velocity -- people could be on top of them before they even land and start to align, so good intel on the LZ would be important..

Broken mechanic is broken.

EDIT: the only ship that really should be able to get around this is the STEALTH BOMBER.. Given it's ability to lock immediately after decloak (or cyno up from a cloaked ship) even in those cases, you get at least 1-2 seconds of seeing the bad guy on grid before the cyno is up or you're tackled.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#257 - 2013-10-30 15:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Because of the current server tick, EVE is one of the most kind MMO's to poor internet connections; I know someone who could play via satellite, 2000ms ping, (2 seconds!) reasonably well once any fight was under way, though he would simply find himself in a station, right after jumping into some insta-lock camps. FPS games like Battlefield were impossible.

I don't believe we're getting any change to server tick any time soon. More than just increased server load, it would also knock out some subscribers.

Looking at deceleration (only) is still worth considering, but in post #190, CCP Fozzie replied directly to a question that mentioned deceleration, and was not persuaded to change anything then.

it's the same kind of problem there was when CCP changed the requirement to shader 3 capable GPU, most player were already ready, while some were not...there is a moment when things need to evolve....

plus, a 2Hz server tick would not change anything for those players, because insta appearing ships apart, this would only impact the capability to catch fast ships / decloack / wrong timers etc.....

your friend for example would still have the very same 30 sec cloack when crossing a gate, during wich he is fully invuln, and stay this way until the server receive a warp order (to mimic the case ur mentionning), and once done, his ship align + warp at the exact same speed, whether his ping is 2s or 20 ms..... he will just stay in the invuln cloack state longer, thats all (and that is exactly why this cloack or the undock invuln is designed for!)
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#258 - 2013-10-30 17:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
seth Hendar wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:

It has already been said by ccp that changing server tick is easy


Can you link please ?
I'd like to read.

here it is: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3781114#post3781114



You got easy to do from that ?

Strange

He's just says the relationship between load and tick is well understood.
It must have been somewhere else he said it would be easy to go to 2hz.

Given TiDi exists and everything has to slow down when server can't cope with 1hz
I would say the code is hardcoded only to move stuff a fixed amount based on speed per tick.
Meaning 2hz would move everything twice as fast.
Meaning massive recoding job to go to 2hz.

I don't see 2hz happening anytime soon even if this is not the case.
It would need 75-100% more servers to run.

Given the fringe cases that are affected by 1hz are the instalock camps which are already two powerful I think the reasonable solution to the problems in these thread are to calm down the warp deceleration phase or make grids big.

Personally I would prefer big grids 5-10 kk or so because of the awesomeness of watching traffic at multiple gates / stations.
Circumstantial Evidence
#259 - 2013-10-30 17:25:52 UTC
Smartbomb-on-gate is not something I do, I don't have any experience with how easy or hard it is on TQ. But I tried it on the test server, controlling both ships. It was pretty hard, I had about a 20% success rate in causing damage to the arriving ship, at the end of a 26 AU warp... and that is with full timing info looking at both screens. I tried bombing a shuttle (6 au/s) with better success. I only dented a rigged covops (14.4 au/s), using the warp-and-jump button, one time in 5 attempts.

So, if your timing is good and/or lucky, its still technically possible to cause damage if the target lands or travels through smartbomb range. Even if you don't see the ship "slide in." If it was actually *impossible* to cause damage, the warp speed change would be removing something from the game.
Circumstantial Evidence
#260 - 2013-10-30 17:39:03 UTC
Here is a link to an older thread about update rate generally - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1570777#post1570777

This specific post by CCP Veritas mentions that it is technically "easy" to change the update rate, but doing so would increase "communication overhead" (read: more network traffic.)