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YES YOU CAN HAVE MY STUFF / DNSBLACK LOOKING FOR GTC SELLER

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Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
#261 - 2013-10-21 00:56:12 UTC
It would be nice to have an official response on this.

It should be perfectly legal as it's not remotely as malicious as what somer does on a daily basis. However, as we all experienced in recent events, CCP obviously applies double standards when it comes to somer.

I'd like to raffle 3 characters totaling 290 mill SP including a couple of HG pirate implant clones and ~150 bill worth in assets and isk.

I'd just like some reassurance CCP believe themselves to be as legit as somer before setting the package up.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#262 - 2013-10-21 03:06:45 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
Another example of CCP favoritism towards SOMER.

So let's recap:
- SOMER was gifted a total of around 5 trillion ISK worth of in-game items.
- SOMER is being allowed to continue RMT that I and others have been told we cannot do.
- SOMER's legitimacy as a fair business operation has been personally guaranteed by CCP.

It is becoming clear that a different set of rules apply to SOMER than those that are applied to the rest of us.

Do we even need to wonder why CCP chose to give SOMER so much free stuff and proclaim them to be the greatest thing in EVE? Here's the data I want to see: affiliate sales numbers for the last year. I suspect CCP has very good reason to like SOMER so much.

Only SOMER is allowed to inhabit the gray area.

Well... that's what this thread is about isn't it? CCP actively directing the fundamental gameplay... if it's not a level chessboard they will loose half their subs at least. I'm not going to unsub... but I plex my play. What do I care? I could plex out 100 years right now if so inclined. ...but the game itself has been corrupted. If you want to play a top level alliance type game I don't know that you would want to do it in EvE right now because it's just so random and unbalanced, with regards to rules and policy.

But f*** it. *popcorn*

Signatures should be used responsibly...
tigerpr0n
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Deepwater Hooligans
#263 - 2013-10-21 04:09:02 UTC
good old black.
Drec Von
Perkone
Caldari State
#264 - 2013-10-21 07:30:50 UTC
Bullets n Beans
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#265 - 2013-10-21 12:57:33 UTC
Hehe, Black that's brillant !

Good luck :)

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Crystafina
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2013-10-21 14:28:37 UTC
The irony of these past SomerBlink anti-competition and blocked for RMT posts is not lost on me.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=37957

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3431370#post3431370
And many many before.............

I also took a further look at the RMT and scripting banned players (but especially the RMT/Botting bans) and it looks like each person put hefty and I do mean HEFTY amounts into Blink but the process of banning is questionable and right inline with the other questionable practices happening here. It seems to go:

1. Get massive deposits in from an RMTer.
2. Somehow identify a botter or a botter's alt (CCP communucation directly to Blink??)
3. Out the person with a sarcastic post which everyone jumps on.
4. NOT RETURN THE ISK OR SAY IT WAS SENT TO CCP

If Point 4. is what it looks like (e.g. if it was sent back to CCP why not say so for kudos??) then Blink is 100% guilty of accepting RMT isk by proxy, knowing full well what it is and not returning it anywhere (i.e. they are now RMT by proxy)

Food for thought
Dyvim Slorm
Coven of the Morrigan
#267 - 2013-10-21 18:53:42 UTC
Baron vonDoom wrote:
It would be nice to have an official response on this.

It should be perfectly legal as it's not remotely as malicious as what somer does on a daily basis. However, as we all experienced in recent events, CCP obviously applies double standards when it comes to somer.

I'd like to raffle 3 characters totaling 290 mill SP including a couple of HG pirate implant clones and ~150 bill worth in assets and isk.

I'd just like some reassurance CCP believe themselves to be as legit as somer before setting the package up.


One is left to wonder if CCP will simply change the rules for now to stop these schemes and then change them back in favour of Somer when it suits.

This sort of thing is corrosive and does corrupt the game, Perhaps it's time that CCP stated their position clearly, what their rules actually are, which groups those rules apply to and how one gets on their favoured list so that the rules no longer apply.
Mug Costanza
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2013-10-21 19:48:25 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Greetings,

Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP. We are currently investigating if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted. We appreciate your patience while we investigate this matter.



Let me help you out here. In the US, it is permitted. Please try and stop it, you will be laughed at in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraints_on_alienation
Het Silenius
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2013-10-21 19:59:23 UTC
Mug Costanza wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
Greetings,

Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP. We are currently investigating if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted. We appreciate your patience while we investigate this matter.



Let me help you out here. In the US, it is permitted. Please try and stop it, you will be laughed at in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraints_on_alienation


ETCs aren't real property.
Mug Costanza
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2013-10-21 20:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mug Costanza
Het Silenius wrote:
Mug Costanza wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
Greetings,

Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP. We are currently investigating if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted. We appreciate your patience while we investigate this matter.



Let me help you out here. In the US, it is permitted. Please try and stop it, you will be laughed at in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraints_on_alienation


ETCs aren't real property.


Good point actually but that won't stop them from being laughed at.
Mug Costanza
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2013-10-21 20:38:12 UTC
Mug Costanza wrote:
Het Silenius wrote:
Mug Costanza wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
Greetings,

Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP. We are currently investigating if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted. We appreciate your patience while we investigate this matter.



Let me help you out here. In the US, it is permitted. Please try and stop it, you will be laughed at in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraints_on_alienation


ETCs aren't real property.


Good point actually but that won't stop them from being laughed at.



Researching more into this issue. It seems that there are companies that do try and restrict their resale, but they have included sections in their terms that states that this is void in jurisdictions where it is not legal to restrict that resale.

So at best CCP will only be able to enforce that policy in jurisdictions where they can enact terms on the reselling of the cards.

And I now take it back, I doubt they will get laughed at seeing as how convoluted this subject is. Good luck enforcing your policy, though, CCP.
Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
#272 - 2013-10-21 21:33:39 UTC
Dyvim Slorm wrote:


... and how one gets on their favoured list so that the rules no longer apply.



I think the recipe for that is quite nicely outlined by this quote:

Quote:
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.


Now just replace the terms "state" and "lie" with "CCP" and "RMT" whilst adjusting the rest of the wording around it, it fits quite accurately.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#273 - 2013-10-21 23:04:52 UTC
There's nothing illegal about selling GTCs or even in-game assets for RL money. Nothing at all. It doesn't matter though, CCP sets the "law" of the game, and if they say you can't sell GTCs for RL cash you can't sell GTCs for RL cash. There's no courts involved... there doesn't need to be. CCP can just ban your a** and that's the end of it. Nothing that's happened is illegal on any count. This is all about CCPs policies and whether they are globally or selectively enforced.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Frying Doom
#274 - 2013-10-21 23:27:05 UTC
Gogela wrote:
There's nothing illegal about selling GTCs or even in-game assets for RL money. Nothing at all. It doesn't matter though, CCP sets the "law" of the game, and if they say you can't sell GTCs for RL cash you can't sell GTCs for RL cash. There's no courts involved... there doesn't need to be. CCP can just ban your a** and that's the end of it. Nothing that's happened is illegal on any count. This is all about CCPs policies and whether they are globally or selectively enforced.

Well depending on the jurisdiction and if you had unpaid or even unused plex time that they failed to reimburse.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#275 - 2013-10-21 23:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Frying Doom wrote:
Gogela wrote:
There's nothing illegal about selling GTCs or even in-game assets for RL money. Nothing at all. It doesn't matter though, CCP sets the "law" of the game, and if they say you can't sell GTCs for RL cash you can't sell GTCs for RL cash. There's no courts involved... there doesn't need to be. CCP can just ban your a** and that's the end of it. Nothing that's happened is illegal on any count. This is all about CCPs policies and whether they are globally or selectively enforced.

Well depending on the jurisdiction and if you had unpaid or even unused plex time that they failed to reimburse.

I don't claim to know much about laws outside of the US, but there's no jurisdiction in the US where it's illegal in any way shape or form. If I got 20 PLEX and put them in my hanger and CCP shut down the servers, I don't think they would have to reimburse me either. I mean I would hope they would anyway... but I know for certain they are not legally obligated to. International commerce is a federal matter, so the US is one big conformal jurisdiction.

Edit: Just remembered CCP Atlanta... that would muddy up the jurisdiction thing. They are still a foreign held company though, so federal law would of course apply, but I'm not sure how interstate commerce laws work or how they apply in that situation. I can say though that the federal president overrides anything else (except for marajuana laws in my state Blink) but any judge is going to look at the second life cases and rule based on that.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Frying Doom
#276 - 2013-10-21 23:51:31 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Gogela wrote:
There's nothing illegal about selling GTCs or even in-game assets for RL money. Nothing at all. It doesn't matter though, CCP sets the "law" of the game, and if they say you can't sell GTCs for RL cash you can't sell GTCs for RL cash. There's no courts involved... there doesn't need to be. CCP can just ban your a** and that's the end of it. Nothing that's happened is illegal on any count. This is all about CCPs policies and whether they are globally or selectively enforced.

Well depending on the jurisdiction and if you had unpaid or even unused plex time that they failed to reimburse.

I don't claim to know much about laws outside of the US, but there's no jurisdiction in the US where it's illegal in any way shape or form. If I got 20 PLEX and put them in my hanger and CCP shut down the servers, I don't think they would have to reimburse me either. I mean I would hope they would anyway... but I know for certain they are not legally obligated to. International commerce is a federal matter, so the US is one big conformal jurisdiction.

Edit: Just remembered CCP Atlanta... that would muddy up the jurisdiction thing. They are still a foreign held company though, so federal law would of course apply, but I'm not sure how interstate commerce laws work or how they apply in that situation. I can say though that the federal president overrides anything else (except for marajuana laws in my state Blink) but any judge is going to look at the second life cases and rule based on that.

As to plex in a cargo hold I have no idea. As to game time I know that is very much, receiving money for goods and services not supplied. Now in some countries that will end up going to court with a summons to appear in court going to CCP. If CCP choose not to answer the summons, nothing internationally will be done. A bench warrant for failure to appear in court will be issued and a summary jugment that CCP owes the money will be given and nothing else will be done, until the CEO or a director enters that jurisdiction, where by the bench warrant will come into effect.

If CCP enter the court then it is up to the judge to decide if CCP owes the money. The funny loophole is that in some small claims courts it is illegal to use lawyers and CCPs directors or CEO would have to defend them selves.

But I digress.....Stop RMT!!!

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#277 - 2013-10-22 00:16:31 UTC
I know we're all being upset about SOMER Blink, but let's not forget Evealopalous does the same thing, along with other services too (none I can call to mind right at this moment, though). This is not a question of "is Blink literally the devil" but one of in general what 3rd party sites should or should not be allowed to do.

"Rewarding" a player with "bonus" virtual currency that "might" be able to get redeemed for in-game stuff is a load of crock. Each blink credit or "GTC token" has a statistically determined average ISK value, and "awarding" them as bonuses for paying money is tantamount to selling ISK for said money.

Any transaction in which real life money leaves one party's hand, followed by a direct consequence of ISK/items entering that party's hand is RMT. Any continuing silent approval of this behavior by CCP spits on the player base by signifying that RMT is okay... so long as you line CCP's pockets with GTC cash.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#278 - 2013-10-22 00:18:11 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The rules:
11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#279 - 2013-10-22 01:16:00 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

As to plex in a cargo hold I have no idea. As to game time I know that is very much, receiving money for goods and services not supplied. Now in some countries that will end up going to court with a summons to appear in court going to CCP. If CCP choose not to answer the summons, nothing internationally will be done. A bench warrant for failure to appear in court will be issued and a summary jugment that CCP owes the money will be given and nothing else will be done, until the CEO or a director enters that jurisdiction, where by the bench warrant will come into effect.

If CCP enter the court then it is up to the judge to decide if CCP owes the money. The funny loophole is that in some small claims courts it is illegal to use lawyers and CCPs directors or CEO would have to defend them selves.

But I digress.....Stop RMT!!!


Well... that again depends on your country then. In the US contracts are binding... and when we created an account we agreed to this:
TOS wrote:

24. CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

25. We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT BY CCP OR ONE OF ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVES MAY RESULT FROM FAILURE TO ABIDE BY THESE RULES. SUCH TERMINATION WILL NOT ENTITLE YOU TO A REFUND OF ANY FEES PAID BY YOU FOR THE USE OF THE EVE ONLINE CLIENT, SERVERS OR WEB SITE. YOU WILL FORFEIT ANY UNUSED GAME TIME REMAINING AT THE TIME OF TERMINATION.

Those would be binding here. That's the deal. Give money to CCP, and it's gone.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Frying Doom
#280 - 2013-10-22 01:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Gogela wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

As to plex in a cargo hold I have no idea. As to game time I know that is very much, receiving money for goods and services not supplied. Now in some countries that will end up going to court with a summons to appear in court going to CCP. If CCP choose not to answer the summons, nothing internationally will be done. A bench warrant for failure to appear in court will be issued and a summary jugment that CCP owes the money will be given and nothing else will be done, until the CEO or a director enters that jurisdiction, where by the bench warrant will come into effect.

If CCP enter the court then it is up to the judge to decide if CCP owes the money. The funny loophole is that in some small claims courts it is illegal to use lawyers and CCPs directors or CEO would have to defend them selves.

But I digress.....Stop RMT!!!


Well... that again depends on your country then. In the US contracts are binding... and when we created an account we agreed to this:
TOS wrote:

24. CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

25. We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT BY CCP OR ONE OF ITS AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVES MAY RESULT FROM FAILURE TO ABIDE BY THESE RULES. SUCH TERMINATION WILL NOT ENTITLE YOU TO A REFUND OF ANY FEES PAID BY YOU FOR THE USE OF THE EVE ONLINE CLIENT, SERVERS OR WEB SITE. YOU WILL FORFEIT ANY UNUSED GAME TIME REMAINING AT THE TIME OF TERMINATION.

Those would be binding here. That's the deal. Give money to CCP, and it's gone.

As you will see on a lot of warranty documents and other documents, something similar to this altered for each country
' In the performance of all services to be provided hereunder, the company and Customer agree to
comply with all applicable Federal, State and local laws and ordinances and all lawful orders, rules and regulations of any
constituted authority.'

It is because what ever a company writes in service agreements, warranties or whatever they are completely void if they conflict with a countries laws. The laws come before a companies say so.

And it of course varies from country to country and even state by state as to what those laws and the courts interpretation of them are.

As I said, I digress....Down with RMT

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!