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Fix Margin Trading to reduce scams.

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Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
#21 - 2013-10-18 07:20:07 UTC
The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.

Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#22 - 2013-10-18 13:25:13 UTC
Mnemonym wrote:
The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.

Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system.


If you were not able to clear escrow, the only thing that would change would be that the total of the items used would be worth less than the escrow amount (although they probably already are most of the time). People ignorant of the scam would still be scammed exactly the same way.

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Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
#23 - 2013-10-18 20:27:08 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Mnemonym wrote:
The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.

Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system.


If you were not able to clear escrow, the only thing that would change would be that the total of the items used would be worth less than the escrow amount (although they probably already are most of the time). People ignorant of the scam would still be scammed exactly the same way.


Not if we have Suggestion 1 in place, as the scammer would need to have enough escrow to cover the minimum quantity, making the trade executable.
Shingyoku
Griffin Support Services
Ad-Astra
#24 - 2013-10-20 08:47:01 UTC
You should have the ability to turn your own margin trading skills on and off, that's really the only change it needs.
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
#25 - 2013-10-21 12:51:12 UTC
Baggo Hammers wrote:
One more time. Scams only work because the mark is careless and/or greedy. Period.
You can't expect the game to be changed each time you are butthurt.

Consider it practice for RL.


Hehe well said... life doesn't get nerfed every time somebody gets scammed :p
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#26 - 2013-10-21 21:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mnemonym wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Mnemonym wrote:
The Escrow amount for the remaining order should always be maintained too, with it gradually decreasing as the entire order is fulfilled. The Escrow amount shouldnt "empty" first.

Having an order that will NEVER be filled just seems broken, it shouldnt be in the system.


If you were not able to clear escrow, the only thing that would change would be that the total of the items used would be worth less than the escrow amount (although they probably already are most of the time). People ignorant of the scam would still be scammed exactly the same way.


Not if we have Suggestion 1 in place, as the scammer would need to have enough escrow to cover the minimum quantity, making the trade executable.


As Elizabeth said, that just limits the scam to ~4 times the actual value of the items. The minimum order volume has nothing to do with it.

Of course, you can do the exact same scam without any market interface. It's one of the oldest ones in the world. It even has it's own entry on the "list of scams" Wikipedia page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks#Fiddle_game
The way to avoid it is to refuse to buy things if you don't know what they're worth. (Hey, this sounds like every piece of investing advice anyone's ever given... funny, that.)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#27 - 2013-10-21 23:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
RubyPorto wrote:


As Elizabeth said, that just limits the scam to ~4 times the actual value of the items. The minimum order volume has nothing to do with it.

Of course, you can do the exact same scam without any market interface. It's one of the oldest ones in the world. It even has it's own entry on the "list of scams" Wikipedia page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks#Fiddle_game
The way to avoid it is to refuse to buy things if you don't know what they're worth. (Hey, this sounds like every piece of investing advice anyone's ever given... funny, that.)


I believe that if both changes were made, removal escrow clearing and addition of minimum quantity escrow, then the Margin Trading scam would not work because you wouldn't be able to create buy orders that would never complete.

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Mnemonym
Salvage Security Services MK.VII
#28 - 2013-10-23 20:37:12 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:


I believe that if both changes were made, removal escrow clearing and addition of minimum quantity escrow, then the Margin Trading scam would not work because you wouldn't be able to create buy orders that would never complete.


This is what I would like to see, Order that WILL complete.

That is all.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#29 - 2013-10-24 00:33:49 UTC
Mnemonym wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:


I believe that if both changes were made, removal escrow clearing and addition of minimum quantity escrow, then the Margin Trading scam would not work because you wouldn't be able to create buy orders that would never complete.


This is what I would like to see, Order that WILL complete.

That is all.


Orders with min quantity 1, quantity >1 would still be able fail if you try sell more than one when the creator has an empty wallet.

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OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#30 - 2013-10-25 01:59:09 UTC
{wanders into thread, stretches, dusts self off}

Oh my. I've been gone for like a year, and what a surprise, these threads still exist. Working as intended and all.

Good to see everyone again.
Gothikia
Le Goobers
#31 - 2013-10-25 20:15:41 UTC
Simples. Don't be stupid and you won't get caught out with the most obvious scam of them all.

<3 Gothie
Nuela
WoT Misfits
#32 - 2013-10-29 17:54:54 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Objectively speaking, this is actually one of the more rational "fixes" to the problem that I've ever seen. That doesn't say much, though, since most often the proposed fixes essentially destroy the legitimate usefulness of the skill.


Subjectively speaking, "hahaha you fell for that."



Yes...I am one that uses the Margin Trading skill with gusto and am not scamming. Margin Trading is a very useful skill and it would hurt to have it taken away.
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#33 - 2013-10-31 12:52:05 UTC
do you speak about contract or Markets ?

the market rule Its the law of supply and demand ... so no scam exist if people try to sell item as expensively as possible ...
A system of tax limits the impact of this phenomenon. Noted that certain object does not have basenpc price implanted in the database so their price are free. and you can't invoke Scam

The basic principle of the business(trade), it is to sell a product to which the customer is ready to pay the price (even if it is more of 100 times the cost price (ex: check your shoes irl )

Scam are possible with contract or trade station for exemple try to do be thought of vessels T1 as T2 , CCP had already change the contract for limit Scam like that , just use your eyes ...

with margin trading you can use some leverages in market for OPs in market if you removed change that the new investor and little trader will be exclude , change mechanical preserve just big Trader of some terrorist Cell of 0.0 for exemple who have already some trillion , increase engaged isk are a droplet for them in their ocean of iso

In a paranoiac mode: do they have you to pay to draft this comment?
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#34 - 2013-10-31 14:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Erotica 1
Daniel Plain wrote:
why would you want to reduce scams?


He clearly lost a lot of isk. Instead of learning a valuable lesson, he's lashing out against the guy who was smarter than he was.

I can help him recover if he wishes.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#35 - 2013-10-31 19:10:37 UTC
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Baggo Hammers wrote:
One more time. Scams only work because the mark is careless and/or greedy. Period.
You can't expect the game to be changed each time you are butthurt.

Consider it practice for RL.


Hehe well said... life doesn't get nerfed every time somebody gets scammed :p


Freud and scams are illegal in RL.

As it is now, I've pretty much leveled all the trading skill except Margin Trading and two others that increase open orders.

I probably never will level Margin Trading since I have no interest in market scamming. I see no other legit use for it. I created a buy order, I want that money taken out of my wallet and put aside. The game basically micromanages your money for you if you choose to ignore this skill.

It also doesn't help that escrow isn't used properly. Escrow is a safety net. The money goes into escrow but as your buy orders are filled the money should come out of your wallet first. If funds are not available in your wallet, then it comes from escrow. Once the order is complete, any remaining balance in escrow is returned.

Instead the game takes the money out of your wallet and puts in in escrow then, as orders are filled, the money in escrow is used.

I like how it works in the game which brings me to the point that Market Trading should have nothing to do with escrow.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#36 - 2013-10-31 19:26:02 UTC
"Angeal MacNova" wrote:
Freud and scams are illegal in RL.

As it is now, I've pretty much leveled all the trading skill except Margin Trading and two others that increase open orders.

I probably never will level Margin Trading since I have no interest in market scamming. I see no other legit use for it. I created a buy order, I want that money taken out of my wallet and put aside. The game basically micromanages your money for you if you choose to ignore this skill.

*snip*


I bolded the part that lets me know you must not be a great trader. If you can't see any non-scam application for the skill, you're playing checkers at a chess tournament.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#37 - 2013-10-31 20:24:40 UTC
OllieNorth wrote:
"Angeal MacNova" wrote:
Freud and scams are illegal in RL.

As it is now, I've pretty much leveled all the trading skill except Margin Trading and two others that increase open orders.

I probably never will level Margin Trading since I have no interest in market scamming. I see no other legit use for it. I created a buy order, I want that money taken out of my wallet and put aside. The game basically micromanages your money for you if you choose to ignore this skill.

*snip*


I bolded the part that lets me know you must not be a great trader. If you can't see any non-scam application for the skill, you're playing checkers at a chess tournament.


I understand the use of it but I have one character and just one wallet. As far as I know, I can't divide up my wallet, although I would love to be wrong about that. I like to keep a float that may or may not cover the complete buy order(s) I have. I would prefer that I didn't have to constantly monitor my wallet to ensure I don't go broke (have all my money sucked into completed buy orders).

If, for example, I like to keep 500m float and I have 1b. With the skill at 0, I could set up 5 buy orders @ 100m each. 500m goes into escrow and I have my 500m float. If I have this skill at V, it doesn't mean I would set up the 5 buy orders if all I had was 625m. If I did and they were filled, then I would only have 125m left. I would still wait till I had the 1b and I would then have to ensure that I don't tie up the 375m. I would much rather have that money go into escrow which saves me the hassle of micromanaging it.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Nuela
WoT Misfits
#38 - 2013-11-01 16:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nuela
Angeal MacNova wrote:
[quote=Dex Thunakar][quote=Baggo Hammers]
I probably never will level Margin Trading since I have no interest in market scamming. I see no other legit use for it. I created a buy order, I want that money taken out of my wallet and put aside. The game basically micromanages your money for you if you choose to ignore this skill.


Out in Null if you wish to accumlate items to build stuff, the volume is much much thinner than hisec. Margin Trading allows you to have...say 10 bill isk...and to be able to put out 40 bill in buy orders.

Why would you want to do that? Because the order come trickling in and you are never in any danger of getting close to buying 10 billion is stuff. If you could on;y have 10 billion in buy orders out there you would have to miss out on much stuff...or, more likely, have to put out smaller buy orders and micromanage them much more.

Margin Trading skill is very convenient for me...and I am not scamming with it.
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#39 - 2013-11-02 10:25:29 UTC
are your sure of your Scam Definition : http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam

regular market rules its not a a dishonest way ... investor will must have skill brain before use it .
so If to prevent you from making effects of lever (exist in IRL market ) interesting in players beginning in the profile of some big Wallet, the markets orders shall melt as in the sun and it shall provoke a bleeding guaranteed for CCP.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#40 - 2013-11-02 19:07:43 UTC
Someone come help me troll Skill Discussions where we are discussing the removal of Margin Trading skill.

Please and thank you.
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