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"I Don't Want To Be A Demigod" (interesting article at The Mittani)
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-10-16 21:47:15 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

All of this is possible (Well except for numerically changing the sec level. You can make a system more or less secure.) It is possible in roughly 3/4 of EVE. The remaining areas are there specifically because CCP wants to give people a chance to opt out of these mechanics.

That's the thing tho, if you design game feature in a ways that allows people to "opt out" and completely ignore its effect, then players who participate in it aren't making any real difference on the game.

Everyone in empire should feel the effects. They don't have to fight if they don't want to, but they should feel the impact when their high sec route goes low sec or when the station they want to use is closed to them.
Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-10-16 21:58:57 UTC
If you are involved in the human struggle of the game you'll feel the intrigue, politics and conflict as real events because they will directly effect your experience within the game. If you're not then it probably does feel like looking through a doorway, seeing other people do things.

I fire up The Mittani every morning along with MSN and take in the 'real' news at the same time I'm taking in the Eve news. I love the lore, the Chronicles and the novels as much as any other fan and they inform, colour and enrich my playing experience along with the pleasure I get from seeing what players get up to within the game. With dynamic player history being created at all times and the lore being added to and providing historical context and back story, I feel that the balance is a good one.

But you have to take in both to get the balance. If you just keep to yourself and like to shoot red crosses then Eve must feel pretty empty sometimes thus any story improves YOUR immersion and experience but clinging to that may be a symptom of not engaging with the game and its real citizens on a more meaningful level.
stoicfaux
#43 - 2013-10-16 22:20:16 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Batelle wrote:
Right, all the lore is outsourced to non-gameplay areas. Like Chronicles. Or mission flavor text. Nothing that has anything to do with gameplay.

The lore is the gameplay. Goonswarm or PL or CVA are a part of EVE lore just as much as the Amarr Empire. Just because you choose to ignore the majority of EVE stories doesn't mean they don't exist.

You're missing the point.

Yes, the players' actions in the sandbox are history in and of themselves. No one is debating that.

However, from a lore/RP perspective, the actions of Goonswarm, PL, CVA, et. al. have *zero* effect on the "people" (NPCs) of EVE, which is odd.

Probably the best example of this is ship crew. The question of how many crew members are on our ships we fly (and lose) has come up before. Supposedly, the number of crew was listed as part of a ship's attributes, but not anymore. "Number of Crew" is not a game changing or min-maxing statistic, but it adds to the lore/flavor/RP aspects of the EVE universe. As pointed out previously, we destroy ships like a newborn baby destroys diapers, but the "human" cost isn't visible in the game.

To continue the ship crew example, introducing "crew experience" (i.e. keeping your crew alive) for small bonuses has been proposed in F&I, but that's not necessarily what we're going for here. Instead, the fluff/flavor/RP/lore should simply contain references to the "lives" of the little people (NPCs) we affect.

tl;dr EVE needs more elevator music.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-10-16 22:21:27 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Being a demigod requires unwashed masses to lord over,



that is what renters are for.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-10-16 22:48:21 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Batelle wrote:
Right, all the lore is outsourced to non-gameplay areas. Like Chronicles. Or mission flavor text. Nothing that has anything to do with gameplay.

The lore is the gameplay. Goonswarm or PL or CVA are a part of EVE lore just as much as the Amarr Empire. Just because you choose to ignore the majority of EVE stories doesn't mean they don't exist.

You're missing the point.

Probably the best example of this is ship crew. The question of how many crew members are on our ships we fly (and lose) has come up before. Supposedly, the number of crew was listed as part of a ship's attributes, but not anymore. "Number of Crew" is not a game changing or min-maxing statistic, but it adds to the lore/flavor/RP aspects of the EVE universe. As pointed out previously, we destroy ships like a newborn baby destroys diapers, but the "human" cost isn't visible in the game.



http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines

All the crew info is there.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide[/url]

Rwandan Genocide, a million people killed in 100 days, not with lasers and star ships, not even with guns but mostly with farm implements. How often does this get talked about? The impact of events like this hardly register in the Western world. Life can be exceedingly cheap depending on whose life you're taking about. I'm guessing the loss of crews in New Eden wouldn't raise much of a whimper in a universe used to war, brutality, ethnic cleansing and mass killing. Add to that the fact that few families would expect their members who left for space to return to them and the fact that many crews would be made up of the poor, the displaced and the desperate and you see how their deaths would not really be headline news.
Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-10-17 08:21:45 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
After reading that article and it's comments, then reading the comments here, it's kind of funny how different people seem to be in the 2 places.


People love acting tough on this forums, following ccp's strategy (or imposed mindset) of EvE iz a dark place, we are special snowflakez instead of taking their time to read and understand the point of an article/thread/opinion.

I wouldn't expect anything different.

see also: anonymouz cool guyz huehue
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-10-17 08:43:36 UTC
Current Eve immersion factor = Jedies bunny jumping all over Corruscant using their lightsaber as wang.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2013-10-17 09:46:22 UTC
Thing with EVE is that players generate gameplay. NPCs are, indeed, vendors in LP stores and mission-givers that serve as background for what's really going on. Outside of hisec (and, even FW lands of Lowsec) lies a different storyline, one someone not interested in local politics will probably not follow.

It's a storyline where race or empire heritage doesn't matter as demigods of destruction band together to face the odds. You can predict easily what an NPC will do, it's a cardboard cut-out that did it to others before. Look up on forums. You can't predict what another player will do, not until you know them well - and you need to work with them or it's lights out for both of you.

It's a storyline that takes place in Mad Max-esque setting of fortified systems surrounded by uncivilized wastelands. Resources, like valuable moons are defended fiercely by their holders, often sparking massive battles. Gangs of fast ships roam the desolate spacescape looking for anything that looks like easy pickings, with locals either observing them from behind their fortified walls or forming counter-fleets to chase them away.

Was this state introduced in an expansion as a result of an NPC-driven war? No - politics of this world and its descent into this madness were shaped by the players. The course was set by massive wars that aren't recorded in the Chronicles, decided by actions of the players. NBSI policies are a consequence of widespread distrust and eagerness of some capsuleers to exploit the friendliness of others. It's just safer to shoot everything remotely hostile on sight.

Look at holders of 0.0 from the standpoint of empires. In the beginning, nullspace was empty - it now has outposts that house cloning facilities of their owners. It has factory outposts capable of building ships for them and, last I recall, there are no resources available exclusively to hisec they couldn't replace on their own. Hell, null people show up in Empire space to make some trouble from time to time - take Burn Jita for example. Several days of ongoing carnage just because one empire wanted it.

Sadly none of these events have a chronicle or a mention in the lore. As much as Goonswarm, CVA, TEST and others are a part of EVE's history, I don't think they're even acknowledged as legitimate nations that simply don't submit to empire rules.

Then again, Rubicon is just the beginning.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Amber Kurvora
#49 - 2013-10-17 10:01:25 UTC
Michael Turate wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Batelle wrote:
Right, all the lore is outsourced to non-gameplay areas. Like Chronicles. Or mission flavor text. Nothing that has anything to do with gameplay.

The lore is the gameplay. Goonswarm or PL or CVA are a part of EVE lore just as much as the Amarr Empire. Just because you choose to ignore the majority of EVE stories doesn't mean they don't exist.

You're missing the point.

Probably the best example of this is ship crew. The question of how many crew members are on our ships we fly (and lose) has come up before. Supposedly, the number of crew was listed as part of a ship's attributes, but not anymore. "Number of Crew" is not a game changing or min-maxing statistic, but it adds to the lore/flavor/RP aspects of the EVE universe. As pointed out previously, we destroy ships like a newborn baby destroys diapers, but the "human" cost isn't visible in the game.



http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines

All the crew info is there.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide[/url]

Rwandan Genocide, a million people killed in 100 days, not with lasers and star ships, not even with guns but mostly with farm implements. How often does this get talked about? The impact of events like this hardly register in the Western world. Life can be exceedingly cheap depending on whose life you're taking about. I'm guessing the loss of crews in New Eden wouldn't raise much of a whimper in a universe used to war, brutality, ethnic cleansing and mass killing. Add to that the fact that few families would expect their members who left for space to return to them and the fact that many crews would be made up of the poor, the displaced and the desperate and you see how their deaths would not really be headline news.



It's the minds inability to deal with such vast quantities which makes it so hard to grasp when a million people die in Rwanda, or when millions of Jews, Gays, Gypsies and other undesirables were gassed to death in WW2. We're far removed from it the same way we're removed from the destruction of our ships, and the horror inflicted on our fictitious crews. That's fine. Eve isn't a morality play, acted out to impact upon us the horrors of war. It's there to allow us to live our our every megalomaniac fantasy (In theory. Putting it into practice is another matter), but it doesn't stop some of us from wondering or imagining the much more active world we occupy. I also think it's a reflection of personality types, that some of us do consider fictitious crews, that even amongst some the epic arseholery that goes on, there's room to reflect on the metaphysics of being practically immortal, and whether or not that impacts upon our own world views of those who are still theoretically mortal.


In effect Eve doesn't make us ammoral, uncaring demi-gods. It potentially makes us much, much worse. If the crews did exist, we'd be nothing less then monsters for killing thousands in the name of ***** and giggles, and trying to be a damper on another capsulers day. But then if this was a real existence, with real crews, maybe we'd value how precious a mortal life is because those who serve under us only ever get one go.

I guess it all depends how damaged your sense of empathy becomes wit the ability to live forever. I expect eventually, it would lead to a cold, calculating being, devoid of any ability to emphasise, due to the transitory nature of those around him/her, of the emotional pain would lead to a bullet in the cybernetic pan.
Cyril Nethrad
Yawm ad-Din
#50 - 2013-10-17 11:55:49 UTC
I totally agree with the article. I started playing EVE not just because flying and shooting spaceships seemed to be a cool thing, but because I read the chronicles, all the lore in Evelopedia articles and the short stories on the EVE homepage. Those were great and made me wanting to be part of this fiction, maybe even make a difference and tell a story of my own.

I love EVE because life in space is harsh, dangerous and adventurous. But I want to experience this thrill through the eyes of a capsuleer who is part of the vast game world and not simply as a random video gamer who is desperately trying to click the right pixels. Without immersion and role playing, for me EVE would be as boring as playing mine sweeper - just another video game in which you try to master the mechanics in order to "win" the game.

About the forthcoming Rubicon extension I have ambivalent feelings. On the one hand it features great and much appreciated improvements to the game mechanics and visual appearance - which is a great thing not only because good mechanics and visuals generally support immersion. Then again it is still another extension which focuses solely on mechanics and completely ignores the role playing aspects of the game (which is particularly the case with the new high sec POCOs).
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-10-17 12:08:09 UTC
Just to clear up some confusion that appears in this thread

Amoral : 1.
lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.


Immoral : 1.
not conforming to accepted standards of morality.


Amoral doesn't mean turning to the dark side as several of you have implied.
It should also be noted the morality generally is dependant on societal norms and not any objective measure.

Thus CODE. agents get upset at the immoral miners stealing Jame's rocks whilst unlicenced and AFK.
Miners get upset at the immoral CODE. agents blowing up their barges.

People have a tendency to see their point of view as "good" and people opposed to them as "evil".

The amoral POV that eve lore gives us is more subtle and interesting than people give it credit for.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Vihura
Vihura Cor
#52 - 2013-10-17 12:21:14 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Extremely interesting article by beta-veteran Svetlana Scarlet:

http://themittani.com/features/i-dont-want-be-demigod

Snippets:

Quote:
As far back as I can remember, the marketing line around Eve's universe has been that the capsuleers are amoral, immortal demigods, unfettered by the bonds of mere humanity. You only need to watch the opening cinematics for Eve (including the new Eve Origins one) to pick up on this, and it gets restated pretty much every time a new expansion is discussed. CCP Seagull played the part this time during the Rubicon announcement, and for the umpteenth time watching CCP talk about it, my eyes rolled back in my head and I let out a long, heavy sigh.

(...)

(...)While Rubicon sounds like it is firing on all cylinders from a game-mechanics point of view, it sounds like the expansion is continuing down a course of using the fiction as purely a justification for game mechanics, something that drives me absolutely batty.

Eve is Real?

The root of this issue is that CCP has an obsession with trying to make the game mechanics justified with regards to the lore – and not just some, but ALL of them.(...)

Unfortunately, this creates this dissonance where NPCs are incredibly powerful on the one hand, but incredibly impotent on the other. CONCORD can vaporize any ship and has a vast armada that can be sent anywhere at any time, but they aren't capable of taking any kind of preemptive action. Their headquarters is blown up by a fleet of ships smaller than what even most second-rate nullsec alliances can field. The Amarr Empire is ruled with an iron fist, but you can suicide gank all day outside the Emperor Family station and that barely raises a 'meh' from them.

CCP's focus on player interaction is not, by and large, a bad thing; after all, over the last ten years, it has created probably the closest community of players I've ever seen and an MMO. A feat unique in a field of mostly WoW-clones. On the other hand, it has also made the lore look increasingly ridiculous. When I write those lore spotlights, I'm hardly surprised when there are comments to the effect of “lol nerd nobody cares.” And really, why should you, when CCP constantly harps on the fact that the lore and the world of Eve is meaningless to players? Why even bother with it at all if CCP is so afraid to make the NPCs act like actual people instead of vending machines for ISK and LP?

(...)

Don't Tell Me Who I Am

The other thing that bugs the hell out of me about the constant “you are an uncaring ******* demigod” line CCP loves to repeat is that it simply isn't true. Yes, a great many players do relish the ability to give in to their darker instincts and pillage and scam their way through space, but not all; maybe not even a majority, considering how many people are content to mine, mission, and trade their way through highsec. On the other hand, there's many players who do want to play the “good guy,” whatever that happens to mean to them, and I'm certainly one of them. There's a reason a fairly good number of people have settled in Providence with its NRDS rules of engagement, despite the fact that the game is clearly not designed to support such an ROE.

(...)

What's worse is that this mindset seems to lead CCP to neglect anything that doesn't fit into that “I'm only out for myself (or my corp or alliance)” box. Factional warfare? It's an arena that is pretty much only about keeping score and getting the phat lewts at this point. You're Minmatar, or Intaki, or Krusual? Who cares, it's completely irrelevant to anything. Who should you run missions for, the Amarr Navy or the Republic Fleet? I dunno, which faction gear do you want? In essence, most players only make decisions on interactions with the game world based on what gives them the most tangible benefits right now because CCP has a) designed the game in such a way that that is the only criteria worth considering and b) made your past choices utterly inconsequential with regard to your future choices. That latter element is almost completely the opposite of the marketing done around everything that happens outside of highsec, yet it's tolerated there because heaven forbid anyone make the “NPC world” relevant to anyone outside of RP nerds.

Final Thoughts

I am not laboring under any delusion that this opinion is going to be the majority opinion out there among the Eve player base, nor do I think that Rubicon, as it has been revealed so far, is going to be anything other than good for Eve as a game. Hell, even with all this bitter RP nerd grumbling I'm looking forward to the expansion for the changes to warp acceleration mechanics alone. I'm just disappointed that for as much as CCP seems to be focused on making the game of Eve better and better, they seem just as insistent on making the world of Eve weaker and weaker. The promise of Rubicon from a gameplay standpoint stands as a rather stark contrast to the months-long lull in any sort of metaplot development of live events, after a number of FanFest panels where it sounded like we'd finally get some momentum on the storyline front. Even if reports of the metaplot's death have been greatly exaggerated, as CCP Falcon claims, it appears to at least be in a rather deep coma.

When it comes down to it, I don't play Eve to live out some sort of Randian ubermensch fantasy, I am playing it to be immersed in a rich science fiction world. Unfortunately, CCP seems focused on making that world increasingly irrelevant, locking it into a death spiral. If the world and its metaplot is meaningless, why should anyone care? And if no one cares, why should any effort be put into making it actually interesting and relevant?

What he is complaining about ? Uber super bitter square vet ...Roll
Maxim Hibra
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-10-17 12:27:03 UTC
The biggest point the article raises for me, the the disconnect between game mechanics and background, and why trying to integrate them entirely to each other is bound to fail. For example it makes no sense how in GTA, you can be gunned down by twenty cops, wake up in the hospital feeling perfectly healthy, and walk around without anybody tying to arrest you, despite you going on a shooting spree five minutes earlier. Or how in MMOs the same boss monster can be killed by multiple groups every week.

I usually consider "things that happen in game" and "things that happen in story" separate. In-story, Link didn't die 20 times against Ganon until he finally managed to beat him, the RPG protagonist didn't go out in the forest to kill boars for five hours so he'd be high enough level to enter the next dungeon, and the Lich King was defeated by the combined forces of the Horde and Alliance, instead of getting repeatedly killed by hundreds of people looking for shiny loot, until said people moved on to killing a new, higher level boss.

Similarly there are a lot of things in EVE that just don't make sense, and trying to explain them in-universe just leads to stupid things happening. Like how the Empires are supposedly powerless against capsuleers when CONCORD can obliterate any amount of hostile players with no effort, and the majority of players have clones in highsec NPC stations (so they could just pull the plug on our clones). Or how there should be no people alive in New Eden since the amount of player and NPC ships (and therefore crews) destroyed daily would be enough to wipe out the population of the entire cluster in a few years. In-universe, most capsuleers probably don't act like 13-year-olds playing a computer game. Its better to just accept the disconnect between in-game and in-universe stuff than to try justify such things in in-universe lore.

Back on the topic, I too wish they'd flesh out the Empires and pirate factions more, and made them have more effect on the game. EVE has some interesting backstory and lore, and I would love to see it being integrated in the game more, and the universe of EVE is supposed to be a huge place with large empires and billions of people, yet it feels rather empty since we don't really get any indication on those billions of people living there. Hell, out ships are supposed to be crewed, with potentially hundreds of people in the case of larger ships, yet for all intents and purposes the crew doesn't exist (you have to wonder what idiots keep signing up to crew all those suicide ganking Tornadoes and Catalysts). One of the major selling points of the game is that your choises matter, but this isn't actually true for most of the content. It would be nice if faction warfare was something other than an endless LP grind, if your relation with various factions actually had more effort than giving you better missions on high standing or making some weak navy ships shoot you at low (like maybe a high standing player would have better access to faction loot, or if you allied with pirate factions you wouldn't be harassed by their rats. Meanwhile, a known outlaw with a low sec status might be unable to place a clone in a highsec station, and has to operate out of lowsec), and if you could actually dynamically effect the sec status of a system (not all of them, but some systems bordering low/null and high, could maybe change status depending on player activity).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-10-17 12:39:05 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Quote:
The more EVE's NPC presence feels like wallpaper, the more EVE feels like just another game; players may be able to create content, but that content rarely has any lasting impact on the universe, because only CCP can modify the universe.

This is totally not true. Who owns the system you are living in has a significant impact on you. Who owns the system next door has an impact. Who owns the region next door has an impact. Every time systems change hands results in a lasting impact on everyone living anywhere in the vicinity. Then there's obviously building stations/POSes which can transform a hostile wasteland into a center of activity, and bridges which literally change the universe map. I've lived in the same area of space for close to two years and I have felt the effect of all of these changes.

i see your point.

the problem is: all your "effects" are temporary. Why? Let me show you.

Let's take a look to Rogue Drone regions. 2 years ago they were living place for huge alliances. Now these regions are almost empty. WHy? Maybe it happened because of players? Nope. Drone alloys removal made it. All 0.0 wars only changed system sovereignty and outpost names, names of alliances and corporations there. But real change happened when CCP intervened.

Another example? OK. Let's recall BoB. Yes, famous Band of Brothers. They existed, they somehow disappeared. Show me now on Eve online map any trails of these people please. Or maybe we have something in the Lore?

And this is the problem of player made content: yes, people create it, people talk about it, people remember it. But if you come to the game in 2013 you would need to dig internet to find anything related past years of Eve Online "player created" history.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-10-17 13:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
March rabbit wrote:

Another example? OK. Let's recall BoB. Yes, famous Band of Brothers. They existed, they somehow disappeared. Show me now on Eve online map any trails of these people please. Or maybe we have something in the Lore?

The Outposts BoB erected are still there, though now under different name. And if you go to w-space you will often happen to find stuff left behind by other players that vacated the system months/years ago.

But you are right that you will find little existence of concrete player created entities (characters, corporations, alliances, etc.) in official Eve lore and history. There has always been a solid wall between the player created history and the fictional background story, for reasons I not quite understand.

And I do not not believe in the huff and puff that this will change regardless of what CCP Seagull might indicate; I have heard the rhetoric multiple times before and nothing happened.*

*: Except the Arek'Jaalan Project run by CCP Dropbear, but that initiative stopped when he left his position in the Content Department.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-10-17 13:40:46 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:

Sadly none of these events have a chronicle or a mention in the lore. As much as Goonswarm, CVA, TEST and others are a part of EVE's history, I don't think they're even acknowledged as legitimate nations that simply don't submit to empire rules.

Then again, Rubicon is just the beginning.


Lots of the history is collected here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/truestories/index.html

CCP have stated that:-

Some of the stories may become inspiration for CCP developed books, comics and TV-series set in the EVE Universe.

I'm sure that will happen and I hope some of the player history starts to leak into the lore. In the short term Eve's amateur writers and chroniclers have a big role to play in ensuring that their stories start to acknowledge and be influenced by what goes on in the game. Create what you want to see and be a part of making it happen.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#57 - 2013-10-17 13:42:08 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


Batelle wrote:
Right, all the lore is outsourced to non-gameplay areas. Like Chronicles. Or mission flavor text. Nothing that has anything to do with gameplay.

The lore is the gameplay. Goonswarm or PL or CVA are a part of EVE lore just as much as the Amarr Empire. Just because you choose to ignore the majority of EVE stories doesn't mean they don't exist.

You're missing the point.

Yes, the players' actions in the sandbox are history in and of themselves. No one is debating that.

However, from a lore/RP perspective, the actions of Goonswarm, PL, CVA, et. al. have *zero* effect on the "people" (NPCs) of EVE, which is odd.




Read Templar One ... they talk about when Capsuleers blew the Jita Monument to hell. And I think the second one (title escapes me ATM) talks about some of the nullsec alliances.

We "do" impact the NPCs ... it's just that they're not listed in "every story, everywhere".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2013-10-17 13:43:52 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Quote:
The more EVE's NPC presence feels like wallpaper, the more EVE feels like just another game; players may be able to create content, but that content rarely has any lasting impact on the universe, because only CCP can modify the universe.

This is totally not true. Who owns the system you are living in has a significant impact on you. Who owns the system next door has an impact. Who owns the region next door has an impact. Every time systems change hands results in a lasting impact on everyone living anywhere in the vicinity. Then there's obviously building stations/POSes which can transform a hostile wasteland into a center of activity, and bridges which literally change the universe map. I've lived in the same area of space for close to two years and I have felt the effect of all of these changes.

i see your point.

the problem is: all your "effects" are temporary. Why? Let me show you.

Let's take a look to Rogue Drone regions. 2 years ago they were living place for huge alliances. Now these regions are almost empty. WHy? Maybe it happened because of players? Nope. Drone alloys removal made it. All 0.0 wars only changed system sovereignty and outpost names, names of alliances and corporations there. But real change happened when CCP intervened.

Another example? OK. Let's recall BoB. Yes, famous Band of Brothers. They existed, they somehow disappeared. Show me now on Eve online map any trails of these people please. Or maybe we have something in the Lore?

And this is the problem of player made content: yes, people create it, people talk about it, people remember it. But if you come to the game in 2013 you would need to dig internet to find anything related past years of Eve Online "player created" history.


Nowadays the only reminder of BoB are a trophy shell alliance claimed by the Goons, memories of a war and the immortal quote "The Mittani sends his regards" often used during heists.

The events of that war have shaped political landscape and grudges from the conflict are still in the air - other than that, outposts were renamed. Shrike's infamous Titan, the first ever to fall while its pilot was online (yes, I am aware that the first titan in history would be the one flown by CYVOK of ASCN fame, but he logged out - though as far as I'm aware there's little to commemorate that event either, for some reason. ASCN would deserve something for being the first to build a Titan.) is gone without even a wreck left behind.

Maybe sides from stories passed on to starry-eyed slasher pilots when they enlist. As a contrast, the Malkalen station is still on fire. To be quite honest, events like this seem to call for player-driven archives, some sort of "chronicles of 0.0" - too often the story is lost with time.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-10-17 13:53:45 UTC
Posting in stealth 'lets make themittani more ad revenue' thread.

Honor is a fools prize. [I]Glory is of no use to the dead.[/I]

Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-10-17 14:04:24 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:

Nowadays the only reminder of BoB are a trophy shell alliance claimed by the Goons, memories of a war and the immortal quote "The Mittani sends his regards" often used during heists.

The events of that war have shaped political landscape and grudges from the conflict are still in the air - other than that, outposts were renamed.

you need to be part of some groups of players to even be noticed about all this. Living somewhere in high-sec or WH or low-sec you can just ignore all this stuff.

This tell a lot about player driven content

Trii Seo wrote:

Shrike's infamous Titan, the first ever to fall while its pilot was online (yes, I am aware that the first titan in history would be the one flown by CYVOK of ASCN fame, but he logged out - though as far as I'm aware there's little to commemorate that event either, for some reason. ASCN would deserve something for being the first to build a Titan.) is gone without even a wreck left behind.

Maybe sides from stories passed on to starry-eyed slasher pilots when they enlist. As a contrast, the Malkalen station is still on fire. To be quite honest, events like this seem to call for player-driven archives, some sort of "chronicles of 0.0" - too often the story is lost with time.

Why? because it's CCP who can mark history. Not players.
First titan wreck can be found by some new player and lead to investigating of cool story. And story about second one (first killed while online) can be found only in internet and only if you will dig especially.

When we will have some hard-written history including all this wars/betrays/wins/losses/etc then player driven stories could replace CCP made Lore. Before it - nope.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"