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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Author
Lugalbandak
Lego3
#81 - 2013-10-16 12:29:33 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lugalbandak wrote:
I really dont get wy null sec guys have alts in empire , if you dont make more isk with anom/ded sites in null then high sec , you doing soemting awful wrong and you should pod yourself back to empire and save the damsell for the 1001 time.


Maybe because of some us have limited time when we can play without having to go afk due to RL so we chose to spend it PvP'ing.

I only get a few hours per day were I know I wont have to go afk for any number of RL reasons.

Its far easier running missions in HS / Incursions / Trading / Scamming to generate isk as you can go afk when ever you chose, even if it means just floating in space.


you can go afk in null sec anytime too , ask your ceo to put up a tower or dock at station , or just saf log off and login when you done with your girl

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#82 - 2013-10-16 12:31:01 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is always a lot of talk on the forums from the null sec cartel crowd about the profitability of high sec mission running, especially in comparison to null sec.

There are often calls to nerf nerf nerf missions in high sec and buff null sec to encourage people to move out of high sec.

About a month ago somebody ask me to test out my theory that null sec income is already vastly superior to high sec, which I believed to be true, based on my observations of null seccers running sanctums in complete safety in deep null.

So I took it upon myself to grab a couple of battleships, sneak them through a wormhole and run some sanctums myself in Goonsec.

I made around 80 million isk per hour. However I suspected that I could do quite a lot better so I did a bit of research and fitted out a passive Proteus and run some combat sites.

I made between 100 and 500 million an hour depending on the drops but the going was quite slow and I had a lot of sites stolen before completion since I'm plexing in hostile space. So I did some more research and discovered that a properly fit Ishtar can run virtually any serpentis / guristas null site.

Yesterday I made 1 billion isk in 45 minutes running The Maze, a few minutes before that I ran a Guristas Military Operations Complex and made an additional 500 million or so. Apart from the modules I looted 2 faction BS BPC's worth 600 million. I think in total I made 2 billion on both sites. About 2 hours worth of combat sites.

I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites. Sure some don't drop anything, but the majority do. The Guristas Military Operations site has 3 guaranteed (1 Hac, 2 BS) dread guristas spawns plus a 100 million in OE. The Maze is guaranteed to drop 160 mill OE and will usually drop Pith X-Type loot worth hundreds of millions.

The most common sites can be run in minutes, with a good chance at a DG battleship or an escalation to a DG BS.

I will never waste my time running L4 missions, or even L5 missions when even as a ninja plexer, who needs to cloak up for hours sometimes when Goons come into system with their silly probes, can make a billion or more a day.

Can you imagine how much alliance peeps are making having stations, fitting, friends and complete safety that I don't have the luxury of having.

Given that, what is this rubbish about L4's and their amazing profitablity??? Curious minds would like to know.



You don't make as much in lvl 4s in high sec as you can in null sec. But:

-It's close (too close)

-High sec lvl 4 income is virtually Un-interuptable and the agents give infinite missions (meaning you could theoretically mission from down time to down time in a well fit mission ship). you dojn't need intel channels or even local to do your thing in high sec.

This does not take into account High Sec incursions, of which there are actual communities (unlike low sec and null sec).

A buddy of mine just came back to the game, So I helped him get into a couple of the incursion communities I fly with. after a few days we went to null where we have upgraded systems.

It wasn't even close. Me and him farming anoms in machariels, doing the occasional escalations etc, made less isk than we would have had we just staty in empire spamming "1400 Mach LFSF in those incursion group channels. EVEN factoring in the wait times, it was more isk.

The big problem with you Infitinty is that you seem to always have this need to fuel your own prejudices (much in the same way as we see with other defenders of the high sec status quo like Harry Forever and Dinsdale). It blinds you to actual reality.

We get that you don't like the people in null sec. But that doesn't change the verifiable fact that High Sec ways of making income are too good in a game that is supposed to feature higher rewards for higher risks. High sec is the stable, protected zone and there should be a real cost for choosing to stay there.

As it is now, I can choose 120-150 mil an hour with a machariel in null sec where I have to react to threats, or 180 mil (120 mil isk plus LP selling at 1.1k isk per CONCORD LP) an hour in high sec doing HQ sites in a shiney incursion fleet. That's heavily broken.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-10-16 12:31:55 UTC
I really don't see the need to move L4s. the income you get from them is pretty dire compared to what you can make ratting or exploring in low. i mean unless you want to trash your faction standings for those tags or run a dedicated alt.

runnning them ad nauseam is also about the dullest PvE activity in eve, bar mining.

forums.  serious business.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#84 - 2013-10-16 12:34:59 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
I really don't see the need to move L4s. the income you get from them is pretty dire compared to what you can make ratting or exploring in low. i mean unless you want to trash your faction standings for those tags or run a dedicated alt.

runnning them ad nauseam is also about the dullest PvE activity in eve, bar mining.


My assertion has been for some time that fixing wardecs is the first step to actually balancing highsec. Once wardecs have teeth (such as generating killrights on people who leave corps during a dec) then we can see what the realities are in highsec.

Because the primary intended method of introducing risk to highsec is broken(nonexistent would perhaps be a better word), it's impossible to balance it from the perspective that currently exists.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Bill Saisima
Doomheim
#85 - 2013-10-16 12:37:21 UTC
What I don't really see in the calculations are traveling (time lost for looking for sites, scanning them, waiting for a 2 hour gate camp to clear or go 25 jumps in other direction if possible at all). Requires 2 accounts, one with cloaky / scanner something.
Also 2 bil / hour doesn't equal 7 bil per month, I make 7 bil per month in hisec.
Living in null means protecting your space, for the 3 hours I am in game in an evening quite possibly 2 or 3 are ops where I lose money not gain.
So in long term high sec is just as competitive because of the non existant dependencies and much easier bottlenecks.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#86 - 2013-10-16 12:39:39 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I've been wandering through null in an alt lately. I see HEAPS of combat sites available in both NPC and sov null. I don’t understand why anyone would run missions in highsec.


Because the people of high sec can't stand the thought of any risk at all. It's why I make so much isk running lvl 5s in low sec (very profitable, but also time consuming with a fair bit of overhead).

Also, most of those "combat sites" are crap. Only "named" hubs, havens, sanctums and some of the named rally points are good anomalies to run, the rest don't tend to be worth the ammo needed to shoot them. Of the signatures, the DED sites can be hit or miss, the un-rateds are generally crap and the profession sites are so so.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-10-16 12:41:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
I really don't see the need to move L4s. the income you get from them is pretty dire compared to what you can make ratting or exploring in low. i mean unless you want to trash your faction standings for those tags or run a dedicated alt.

runnning them ad nauseam is also about the dullest PvE activity in eve, bar mining.


My assertion has been for some time that fixing wardecs is the first step to actually balancing highsec. Once wardecs have teeth (such as generating killrights on people who leave corps during a dec) then we can see what the realities are in highsec.

Because the primary intended method of introducing risk to highsec is broken(nonexistent would perhaps be a better word), it's impossible to balance it from the perspective that currently exists.


a wardec is against a corporation not an individual. if you want to shoot people with impunity go to null, that's what it's there for.

forums.  serious business.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#88 - 2013-10-16 12:42:09 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Given that, what is this rubbish about L4's and their amazing profitablity??? Curious minds would like to know.


For real.

It's the worst ISK per hour of anything I do in-game (and no, I do not mine Ore).

This has just been a point for trolling for 10 years because Trolls.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#89 - 2013-10-16 12:42:10 UTC
Run your "simulation" for a year. Adjust for effort. Hisec wins hands-down.

End ****** thread.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#90 - 2013-10-16 12:43:36 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Because the people of high sec can't stand the thought of any risk at all.


That's such a broad generalization I'm almost embarrassed for you for typing it.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-10-16 12:46:10 UTC
also the appeal of running PvE in a risky environment is pretty low when the optimal ship fit to do it in is pretty useless for defending yourself.

hence why we all run around in cloakies.

forums.  serious business.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#92 - 2013-10-16 12:47:07 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:

You're willing to spend 5 hrs making enough play money to buy one PLEX[i] when a kid flipping burgers is making substantially more



Actually, I have not seen a 'kid' flipping burgers in a few decades now. They are all well into their 20's at least.....and working 2 or 3 jobs.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#93 - 2013-10-16 12:47:57 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
I really don't see the need to move L4s. the income you get from them is pretty dire compared to what you can make ratting or exploring in low. i mean unless you want to trash your faction standings for those tags or run a dedicated alt.

runnning them ad nauseam is also about the dullest PvE activity in eve, bar mining.


My assertion has been for some time that fixing wardecs is the first step to actually balancing highsec. Once wardecs have teeth (such as generating killrights on people who leave corps during a dec) then we can see what the realities are in highsec.

Because the primary intended method of introducing risk to highsec is broken(nonexistent would perhaps be a better word), it's impossible to balance it from the perspective that currently exists.


a wardec is against a corporation not an individual. if you want to shoot people with impunity go to null, that's what it's there for.


That zooming sound you just heard was the point flying past your head at super sonic speeds lol.

What Kaarous (and others, like Malcanis) is saying is that High Sec income is unbalanced not on a per individual level, but as a whole, and mainly because the risks don't match the rewards.

Before the announcement of the SOE ships, I spent a lot of time in Osmon farming the hell out of the missions for the Sisters LP. I was making null sec level income in high sec . The only reason I would log on my null alts was because I was bored of Incursions and Sisters (and lately Thukker) missions. Allof this without even having to glance at local chat. That's an example of not great balance.


Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2013-10-16 12:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Bill Saisima wrote:
What I don't really see in the calculations are traveling (time lost for looking for sites, scanning them, waiting for a 2 hour gate camp to clear or go 25 jumps in other direction if possible at all). Requires 2 accounts, one with cloaky / scanner something.
Also 2 bil / hour doesn't equal 7 bil per month, I make 7 bil per month in hisec.
Living in null means protecting your space, for the 3 hours I am in game in an evening quite possibly 2 or 3 are ops where I lose money not gain.
So in long term high sec is just as competitive because of the non existant dependencies and much easier bottlenecks.

There's no travel time. I AFK in null. When I do play I scan down a site that's nearby, takes 10 minutes. Run the site. Whether that's a low end or a high end site. The bounties alone are equivalent to missioning. If I get an escalation I have 24 hours to go do it. So I slowly jump to the location, scan and run anything that is in the way. If someone comes in and camps I afk and do real life stuff.

As for 7 billion not being 2 billion an hour. I didn't say that I consistently make 2 billion an hour. I made 2 billion yesterday in 2 hours so that was 1 billion per hour.

Yesterday I played for 2 hours, why continue when I just made 2 billion. Sometimes I play for one site if I don't have time. I probably play 2 hours per night on weeknights and maybe 10 hours on weekends.

20 hours / 7 billion is a very healthy 350 million isk per hour. That doesn't include bounties.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lugalbandak
Lego3
#95 - 2013-10-16 12:49:43 UTC
anyway , im gonna back to ded sites and collect some mach bpc , only founded 4 so far this month , beh null sec really sucks

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#96 - 2013-10-16 12:51:12 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Because the people of high sec can't stand the thought of any risk at all.


That's such a broad generalization I'm almost embarrassed for you for typing it.


You can be embarrassed by the truth all you like. I remember the fanfest presentation where CCP told us that most high sec characters will never leave high sec. Sure, plenty of those are alts, but there is a definite core group of high sec players who will accept NO risk whatsoever, and we all know that.

That's why null sec, low sec and wormholes have such low population density compared to high sec.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2013-10-16 12:51:44 UTC
Lugalbandak wrote:
anyway , im gonna back to ded sites and collect some mach bpc , only founded 4 so far this month , beh null sec really sucks

:)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#98 - 2013-10-16 12:57:54 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


20 hours / 7 billion is a very healthy 350 million isk per hour. That doesn't include bounties.


Nor does it include reality. I'm a professions null PVe player, and unlike you have actual experience with null sec living (being in alliances, going to CTAs, dealing with hostiles in my space ect). It seems a certain way to you because you don't have to deal with other folks realities. It's bad thinking to sample something then draw huge sweeping conclusions from a minor sample.

The conclusions you draw are wrong, and the funny thing is that your own actions demonstrate it, yet your prejudices keep you from acknowledging it (you know, like that time you said null was so safe so you SOLO raided an alliance's space and killed ships....ie something you can't do in a place that's so safe...lol).


March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-10-16 13:11:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

As it is now, I can choose 120-150 mil an hour with a machariel in null sec where I have to react to threats, or 180 mil (120 mil isk plus LP selling at 1.1k isk per CONCORD LP) an hour in high sec doing HQ sites in a shiney incursion fleet. That's heavily broken.

completely agree: remove incursions from high-sec and be done with all whine.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#100 - 2013-10-16 13:11:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Because the people of high sec can't stand the thought of any risk at all.


That's such a broad generalization I'm almost embarrassed for you for typing it.


You can be embarrassed by the truth all you like. I remember the fanfest presentation where CCP told us that most high sec characters will never leave high sec. Sure, plenty of those are alts, but there is a definite core group of high sec players who will accept NO risk whatsoever, and we all know that.

That's why null sec, low sec and wormholes have such low population density compared to high sec.


Oh, I understand completely. After 4 years, I really really do understand. Honestly.

But that still does not excuse propagandistic lying platitudes like "the people of high sec can't stand the thought of any risk at all."

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882