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[Rubicon] [Updated] Interdictor Rebalance

First post First post
Author
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#541 - 2013-10-31 03:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Syri Taneka
S1euth wrote:
Syri Taneka wrote:


(especially the poor Flycatcher, which basically has to choose between more damage or a DC II (which isn't really a choice at all = P)).


The Flycatchers choice is between a nano or a co-processor II; Flycatcher pilots dream of the day when they can choose between a BCS or DC II.


IF you want to fit a cloak and weapons. IMO if you're setup to cloak, you should not also be engaging, and vice-a-versa. (It gets a little tight with tank regardless, but you can fit a DC II easily enough with the new stats (remember, of course, that the new fitting restrictions will not allow dual-bubble fits, so there's 100 CPU freed up = P).

I still want my 42km Javelin Rocket Flycatcher back!
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#542 - 2013-10-31 07:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alghara
Syri Taneka wrote:
Alghara wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Alghara wrote:
very good revision "V2".

But i don't like very much the heretic with 3 medium 3 low.

for me 2 medium 4 low will be better like eris

If you prefer the slot layout of the Eris then fly the Eris. Choices man, choices. Racial destroyer V only takes about a week.


i can fly all race it's not a problem.

But 3 slot for dps and tanking is really short.




Odd...

Last I checked, an interdictor's role in a fleet isn't DPS...

Oh! You're talking about being an ******* and gate camping to trap shuttles and t1 frigates.

Bring a friend?

ETA: Having now actually read over the updates, I can respond with actual logic!

The Heretic has 3 lows where the Eris has 4 for two reasons: Better base resists, and built-in non-stacking-nerfed t2 ANP (4% per level skill bonus).

Amarr t2 resists for armor are fairly good across the board, with the Heretic having 48 lowest (therm) @ lvl 5. This is prior to any mods. The Eris has a lowest of 10 (exp) and no skill bonus to that, which means dedicating a low to exp resist is essentially a requirement.

Giving the Heretic a 4th low would make it rather OP compared to the other 3 (especially the poor Flycatcher, which basically has to choose between more damage or a DC II (which isn't really a choice at all = P)).


sorry but when you check the tanking.

The best interdictor for tanking is flycatcher. because with 5 slot of tanking is the king, and also you have some better chance to survive if you have also some logi with you (repair in the beginning of the cycle).

4 med tanking and one low (damage control). The last med is for prop.

When you tank in shield and you had some buffer you increase your sig but your speed and agility is still the same, it's not the case with armor.

Active tanking. Active shield tanking is also more interesting, because in the same module you have the tanking and the cap booster. It's not the case with armor, you need to have enough cap to run the ancillary armor.

Pls change the heretic slot.

2 medium
4 low


Best tanking

[Flycatcher, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
EM Ward Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

21k on EFT
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#543 - 2013-10-31 20:30:45 UTC
After doing some fiddling in EFT, I'd say that most of the dictors could use more CPU. The Heretic and the Eris in particular could use a LOT of CPU: neither of them is really capable of doing a respectable cloaking dictor fit: the Heretic has to use autocannons because launchers suck too many resources, and the Eris can't fit any serious armor mods (only adaptive nano platings) if you fit even the smallest blasters to it. Kind of disappointing since the Sabre and Flycatcher can both run these sorts of fits with minimal drama-- just downsize the guns on the Sabre to free up resources and add an overclocking rig on the Flycatcher. The Heretic and Eris are way, way, way worse on fitting.

I think you guys have done a great job making the Sabre more playable and have really made the Flycatcher a viable alternative to the Sabre-- they have different strengths now, but each is superior to the other at something and both make compelling ships; good job-- but I feel like the Heretic could use a little more CPU and the Eris just kind of struggles generally.

Here's my issue with the Eris:

- it has an inflexible slot layout (armor tank or nothing)
- it has no resist bonus, so it will never be very tanky
- when you armor tank it, it starts getting too slow to speedtank well or do it's job well (you need to put a nano or two on it to get it to handle well enough)
- it suffers from poor fitting just like before: you get another low slot over a Heretic, but you don't have the CPU to do anything useful with it (the Eris has the same problem on TQ currently-- it supposedly offers a superior slot layout for armor tanking, but since the fourth low needs to be a co-processor in order for the ship to mount the same fits the Heretic can, the slot is effectively nulled out)

So far, the only thing I can find that the Eris does better than the other 3 dictors is an all-gank fit: if you fit it like a big Taranis (no cloak, best-named damage control for a tank, neutrons, scram, mwd, 1 MFS, 2 nanos... and 2 CPU rigs :\ ) then it gets a slightly higher combat rating than the other dictors in EFT (just over 400 dps with faction antimatter, ~4,900 EHP). If you want to do things like fit a cloak or fit any kind of respectable tank while still being fast enough to decloak things, this ship is pretty lame.

Bottom line: I would fitting stats on the Heretic and Eris. IMHO the ships should have enough CPU / grid to mount a fit that consists of a cloak, bubble launcher, rack of their bonused weapons (preferably downsized, although I guess there's no way for you to do this with the Heretic since there are no "smaller" rocket launchers-- maybe make it so it can fit rockets but not lights? IDK), and a basic tank of the type the ship is biased towards (armor and armor here). The Eris could use a little more mobility as well (ideally in the form of a bonus that reduces the negative impacts of armor plates, which would let you be fast with a buffer tank while not making DC / AAR tanked variants stupidly fast and agile).

This reminds me of another paradigm I noticed when theorycrafting TQ dictors a while back: you guys should find a way to offset the speed disadvantages of armor-tanked ships IMHO, especially at this ship size. What I found looking at armor / afterburner vs shield / MWD fits a while back was that at the end of the day nothing did appreciably better than a Sabre in terms of sig/speed tanking because the decreased sig of amor-based ships was always offset by their lower speeds. Shield tanking has a lot of innate advantages (passive recharge when out of combat, further damage mitigation through passive recharge on buffer fits while IN combat, etc), and front-loaded reps are especially advantageous for small ships. There should be compelling reasons to consider an armor dictor over a shield dictor other than "well, we're running an armor fleet and all our reps will be armor reps, so we'll bring an armor dictor in this specific case even though shield ones are better."

I feel like I'm getting off topic and my thoughts are very disorganized today, so I'll stop now, but yeah: great job on the Sabre / Flycatcher, and more CPU on the Eris and Heretic please!
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#544 - 2013-10-31 21:13:11 UTC
Maybe swap the slots on the Heretic / Eris? Heretic: 4 lows, 2 mids, resist bonus; Eris: 3 lows, 3 mids, no resist bonus? That would certainly fit better with the overall positioning of Amarr / Gallente, with Amarr being the armor bricktank with no mids and Gallente being the gank-oriented setup that can field an underwhelming shield or armor tank depending on the preferences of the user...
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#545 - 2013-11-01 14:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Marian Devers
I love how the Sabre has the best speed, agility, a sub-300 signature, full rack of guns, and a tank only slightly worse than the Flycatcher, while all the other Interdictors have to use Co-Processors and CPU/PG rigs to fit everything, and end up nowhere near the Sabre =P
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#546 - 2013-11-01 15:51:09 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:

This reminds me of another paradigm I noticed when theorycrafting TQ dictors a while back: you guys should find a way to offset the speed disadvantages of armor-tanked ships IMHO, especially at this ship size.


The Eris used to be more mobile but then the Sabre crowd got angry with this. My personal issue is the cap regen is the same for all dessies while only the Eris has cap drawing weapons.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#547 - 2013-11-01 16:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Alghara wrote:
21k on EFT

And a sig the size of some battleships, 353m. If the Heretic and its 263m sig had a 4th low slot it would be OP.
Rockstara
Reaction Scientific
#548 - 2013-11-01 16:37:31 UTC
has the redesigned bubble launching module been designed with the capability to eventually put it into a covert cyno capable bubbler? That is a ship class that is currently missing and I could see being added in the future - would the module support that. I could easily see wanting such a ship to modify the bubble launcher say to only hold one charge for instance.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#549 - 2013-11-01 16:41:01 UTC
Rockstara wrote:
has the redesigned bubble launching module been designed with the capability to eventually put it into a covert cyno capable bubbler? That is a ship class that is currently missing and I could see being added in the future - would the module support that. I could easily see wanting such a ship to modify the bubble launcher say to only hold one charge for instance.

Black Ops drops are already powerful enough IMO.
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#550 - 2013-11-01 20:39:29 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Alghara wrote:
21k on EFT

And a sig the size of some battleships, 353m. If the Heretic and its 263m sig had a 4th low slot it would be OP.


The heretic is more interesting with plate when you add some plate the best fiiting is afterburner and not mwd.

Because your speed and agility is not terrible and small drone are very efficiency against you.

with flycatcher the sig is more important but your speed is very interesting and the buffer also. You can also use the shield ancillary without to have problem with you capacitor, this is not the case with armor ancillary.

Armor dictor need a little more tanking because :

remote armor is End of cycle.

plate reduce the speed and agility.


Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#551 - 2013-11-01 21:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Alghara wrote:
The heretic is more interesting with plate when you add some plate the best fiiting is afterburner and not mwd.

Because your speed and agility is not terrible and small drone are very efficiency against you.

with flycatcher the sig is more important but your speed is very interesting and the buffer also. You can also use the shield ancillary without to have problem with you capacitor, this is not the case with armor ancillary.

Armor dictor need a little more tanking because :

remote armor is End of cycle.

plate reduce the speed and agility.

I disagree, I think the Heretic will be an excellent armor fleet interdictor with these changes. How about we let people actually use them on TQ with the new bonuses before we start declaring AB to be totally superior to MWD in every situation despite the wasted hull bonus?

A 400mm plated Heretic should go 2150m/s vs your Flycatcher's 2389m/s with a 90m smaller sig and roughly equivalent resists. It will have a smaller buffer and a bit less agility but it also gets to fit a full rack of T2 rocket launchers to kill drones and other small stuff. I think that sounds pretty well balanced. Oh and it also still has a couple of mids for ewar or normal tackle.

If it really does need more tank then should get some more raw EHP. Not a fourth low slot.
Resi Kaae
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#552 - 2013-11-01 21:33:46 UTC
Is there any reason why Interdictors need to be a lot more agile/faster than Destroyers and slightly more agile faster than AF's?
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#553 - 2013-11-01 22:12:13 UTC
Resi Kaae wrote:
Is there any reason why Interdictors need to be a lot more agile/faster than Destroyers and slightly more agile faster than AF's?


Seriously, though. Interdictors are going to render AFs functionally obsolete and crap all over the small ship meta. People will still use AFs because they're a significantly shorter train and a bit cheaper, but interdictors are going to go faster, hit harder, and tank more. Assault frigates' only notional advantage, sig radius, doesn't actually count for as much as you might think due to how the tracking formula works.
Resi Kaae
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#554 - 2013-11-01 23:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Resi Kaae
I agree with you mostly except sig radius counts for a lot when you can dictate the engagement due to higher mobility and/or better ewar, you won't be dictating many engagements in an AF versus an Interdictor.

They're still quite speedy now, but that's balanced out by the AF's superior combat capability, an advantage which AF's will no longer have after these changes. You can't have a ship class that's nearly the best at everything in an environment where it will be popular.

I'm all in favour of giving the Interdictors more tank and the MWD sig radius bonus to make them more survivable in larger engagements, but now they have those boosts they no longer need to be as fast so as not to upset the solo/small gang frigate environment.

The Interdictos as proposed but with Destroyer manoeuvrability would still be perfectly viable for fleet engagements and an attractive option for solo/small gang frig warfare while still having exploitable weaknesses for wary pilots.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#555 - 2013-11-02 01:16:50 UTC
Quote:
I agree with you mostly except sig radius counts for a lot when you can dictate the engagement due to higher mobility and/or better ewar, you won't be dictating many engagements in an AF versus an Interdictor.

It does matter quite a lot under the right circumstances, but they're not particularly relevant to most of the situations where you'd be choosing between a dictor and AF.
Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#556 - 2013-11-02 01:54:05 UTC
CCP, do not listen to these guys saying give the heretic 2 mids and 4 lows. we already have a retribution we dont need another. plz god do not do that.

i would be ok with 1 mid and 5 lows on heretic if you made scripts for the interdictor bubbles so they could do some pointing in lowsec of sorts

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Mazzara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#557 - 2013-11-02 03:34:30 UTC
Maennas Vaer wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Why are we seeing an Eris with split weapon bonuses? I thought the new Roden would be able to fit either/or, not be compelled to fit both. With only 4 turrets and 4 launchers, one is forced to use split weapons. At least with 5 turrets you could fit a cloak and 2 sphere launchers and have a single weapon system. Now with that set up, we'll be forced to fit an oddball launcher or turret.

Please fix the hardpoint mounts to not force Eris pilots to use split weapons. You guys phased it out of Minmatar T1, made a GREAT way to choose which weapon system you wanted for other split weapon ships (namely Minmatar Fleet Issues), and fixed the Ares' Roden bonuses for either/or. Now, you have a throwback, old-style split weapons system on the Eris.

It really should be a ship (and indeed the whole Roden line) that lets you choose which weapons system you want to use instead of only 4 of each weapon hardpoint. It's not even about damage output. Balance that around having all of one weapon on the ship. It's about optimal range/max flight time, instant weapon damage, etc. This is a step backward, Fozzie.


This.


I agree
No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use, you can't wash shame!
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#558 - 2013-11-05 16:10:17 UTC
One more tweak to agility and mass. Slows down the Heretic slightly while using a prop mod, and brings their agility into a bit of a more balanced place relative to their combat competition like AFs.

Heretic:
Mass: 1305000 (+25000)
Agility: 3.7 (+0.13)

Flycatcher:
Agility: 3.6 (+0.2)

Eris:
Agility: 3.7 (+0.18)

Sabre:
Agility: 3.7 (+0.17)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#559 - 2013-11-05 17:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
CCP Fozzie, I wouldn't mind you not giving so many Caldari ships, like the flycatch a resistance bonus, when their Amarr equivalent do, if you fixed the blatant issue of a faction invul costing 350m. The reason shield faction parts are so expensive -typically twice that of armor modules, is that the number of factions dropping shield tanking parts are quite literally - half that of factions dropping armor modules, thus the costs. In the next expansion as part of the rebalancing, can we have more factions dropping shield tanking modules please?

Traditionally speaking, Caldari have been to shields tanking, what amarr are to armor tanking. You can't ignore that to get similar buffer numbers a flycatchers signature will be far larger than the heretics, and therefore as a fleet fit support ship, it is far poorer, its not like mass from plates makes quite the same difference anymore.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#560 - 2013-11-05 17:17:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One more tweak to agility and mass. Slows down the Heretic slightly while using a prop mod, and brings their agility into a bit of a more balanced place relative to their combat competition like AFs.

Heretic:
Mass: 1305000 (+25000)
Agility: 3.7 (+0.13)

Flycatcher:
Agility: 3.6 (+0.2)

Eris:
Agility: 3.7 (+0.18)

Sabre:
Agility: 3.7 (+0.17)


are there going to be any more changes?
the sig radius of these ships still needs work
and the slot layouts also still need work

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using