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[Rubicon] [Updated] Interdictor Rebalance

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Author
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#361 - 2013-10-23 19:06:14 UTC
Archare wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If you decide to shoot the Jita monument in the meantime remember to take a jacket so you don't catch a cold.



You need to make that corpse gun so I can shoot my naked body at the monument.
Only naked until Rubicon...unfortunately, our pilots are not wearing their birthday suits any longer. It's too bad, really, as it really made it feel like the capsuleer commits to bonding with the pod (and ship) only, leaving all (Earthly) possessions behind. Yes, even their underpants!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#362 - 2013-10-23 19:13:53 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Bubble immune dictors would be wtfbbqop. Just saying.

Rest of your feedback I'm looking into and taking note of, keep it coming.

I see Fozzie posted on the Eve Vegas thread today, hopefully he'll come by and give us something after a week?


Bubble-immune anything is OP: "immunity to non-targeted interdiction" should be scrapped as a ship attribute across the board.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm back from Vegas and caught up on the thread. I've been discussing some version 2 stuff with Rise and Ytterbium today.

I expect version two of these changes will go to the CSM within the next day or so then on to you guys asap. Thanks for the feedback so far.

If you decide to shoot the Jita monument in the meantime remember to take a jacket so you don't catch a cold.


Here's to hoping you guys can get some meaningful improvements approved. My Sabre is sad that it can hardly fight anything and has to spend most of its time running away from stuff.

Hope Vegas was fun, and that you managed to soak up some of that sunlight for the weeks ahead!
Aust Silverfrond
Dead Star Syndicate
#363 - 2013-10-23 20:02:18 UTC
seriously, the new gallente split weapons is just dumb, please reconsider this process

Also, might not be the place for this, but can we consider moving khanid ships from missiles to drones, which is what amarrs second weapons system actual is? it seems really silly that for all t1 amarr ships you have lasers and drones, then t2 comes along and suddenly oh, missiles... ok....

It was ok when the t1 ships had a few missile ships (bring back my missile inquisitor d****t!!!! but now youve refocused several ships to be drone boats

tl:dr laser heretic, no split eris, also bubble immune sounds good
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Moist Towelettes.
#364 - 2013-10-23 20:37:58 UTC
Until there is a second set of T2 Destroyers I think you should have these stick to their racial primary weapons.

Amarr = Lasers
Gallente = Hybrids
Caldari = Missiles
Minmatar = Projectiles

And don't try to say that the Eris is already a Hybrid boat, its not. You said you were doing away with split weapon systems and you have done that except on select Navy Faction Ships, which is fine. T2 symbolizes specialization so do not split its weapons up.

Other than that it seems solid to me, maybe a shield resist bonus on the Flycatcher to compete with the Heretic's armor resist bonus?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#365 - 2013-10-23 22:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Just another reminder that "Roden = Split Weapons" is a horrible theme which should be purged at the earliest opportunity.

And that the Heretic looks to be a superior missile platform to the Flycatcher (8.75 effective launchers with selectable damage types, against 9 effective launchers in kinetic flavour only).

Fix these two things and the balance between the classes is much improved. You then have the wider issue that the dictor hull is little more than a one-use suicide bubbler, which needs some more radical alterations.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#366 - 2013-10-23 23:31:31 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Just another reminder that "Roden = Split Weapons" is a horrible theme which should be purged at the earliest opportunity.


reminder that you're stupid, they just need to do it better
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#367 - 2013-10-24 00:34:02 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Just another reminder that "Roden = Split Weapons" is a horrible theme which should be purged at the earliest opportunity.

And that the Heretic looks to be a superior missile platform to the Flycatcher (8.75 effective launchers with selectable damage types, against 9 effective launchers in kinetic flavour only).

Fix these two things and the balance between the classes is much improved. You then have the wider issue that the dictor hull is little more than a one-use suicide bubbler, which needs some more radical alterations.


Kinetic flavor is my favorite! Can't wait for the sprinkles.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#368 - 2013-10-24 09:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Damian Gene wrote:


The players give feedback, but we've seen less and less feedback from the devs! I miss scrolling down and seeing the blue tags. Can you please give us some more incite to what your thinking? What are your goals? You guys also play, so how will this change the ship class to what you'd like to fly?


Fozzie is scrambling to come up with a version 2 of this thread like was done with the industrial rebalance. Which was very, very good. You hear that Fozzie? WE STILL BELIEVE IN YOU!!

http://slackiance.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/lazybelieve.jpg
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#369 - 2013-10-24 09:49:55 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Until there is a second set of T2 Destroyers I think you should have these stick to their racial primary weapons.

Amarr = Lasers
Gallente = Hybrids
Caldari = Missiles
Minmatar = Projectiles

And don't try to say that the Eris is already a Hybrid boat, its not. You said you were doing away with split weapon systems and you have done that except on select Navy Faction Ships, which is fine. T2 symbolizes specialization so do not split its weapons up.

Other than that it seems solid to me, maybe a shield resist bonus on the Flycatcher to compete with the Heretic's armor resist bonus?


What would you think about them scrapping the Eris as a gunboat, and turning it into a T2 version of the Algos produced by CreoDron?
Quontor Zarrkos
Island Monkeys
Stay Feral
#370 - 2013-10-24 12:31:23 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Until there is a second set of T2 Destroyers I think you should have these stick to their racial primary weapons.

Amarr = Lasers
Gallente = Hybrids
Caldari = Missiles
Minmatar = Projectiles

And don't try to say that the Eris is already a Hybrid boat, its not. You said you were doing away with split weapon systems and you have done that except on select Navy Faction Ships, which is fine. T2 symbolizes specialization so do not split its weapons up.

Other than that it seems solid to me, maybe a shield resist bonus on the Flycatcher to compete with the Heretic's armor resist bonus?


This, very much this. We don't need special flavor on these things like split weapons. Just make them improved versions of the t1 destroyers with the ability to deploy bubbles. And make them able to fight stuff instead of dying to well-fit assault frigates, their primary role should still be support against small tackle from the enemy. If the sabre works and is your role model, why don't you make a hybrid, laser and missile version of it?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#371 - 2013-10-24 12:41:59 UTC
Quontor Zarrkos wrote:
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Until there is a second set of T2 Destroyers I think you should have these stick to their racial primary weapons.

Amarr = Lasers
Gallente = Hybrids
Caldari = Missiles
Minmatar = Projectiles

And don't try to say that the Eris is already a Hybrid boat, its not. You said you were doing away with split weapon systems and you have done that except on select Navy Faction Ships, which is fine. T2 symbolizes specialization so do not split its weapons up.

Other than that it seems solid to me, maybe a shield resist bonus on the Flycatcher to compete with the Heretic's armor resist bonus?


This, very much this. We don't need special flavor on these things like split weapons. Just make them improved versions of the t1 destroyers with the ability to deploy bubbles. And make them able to fight stuff instead of dying to well-fit assault frigates, their primary role should still be support against small tackle from the enemy. If the sabre works and is your role model, why don't you make a hybrid, laser and missile version of it?



Well a well fit AF shoudl be able to kill an interdictor if it can catch it. But the interdictor should not die to interceptors. OTherwise the AF would be used for what? They cannot catch the interceptors or T1 frigates that are the other things that can be killed by them (not counting stupid cruisers that forget to fit the neut)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#372 - 2013-10-24 15:20:03 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Until there is a second set of T2 Destroyers I think you should have these stick to their racial primary weapons.

Amarr = Lasers
Gallente = Hybrids
Caldari = Missiles
Minmatar = Projectiles

And don't try to say that the Eris is already a Hybrid boat, its not. You said you were doing away with split weapon systems and you have done that except on select Navy Faction Ships, which is fine. T2 symbolizes specialization so do not split its weapons up.

Other than that it seems solid to me, maybe a shield resist bonus on the Flycatcher to compete with the Heretic's armor resist bonus?


What would you think about them scrapping the Eris as a gunboat, and turning it into a T2 version of the Algos produced by CreoDron?


QFT! Both above options make perfect sense.

Fozzie - get rid of the split weapon bonus on the Eris, unless you're willing to make ALL of the high slots turrets or launchers.

This **** design you've given us here just shows you're limiting your design philosophy by what you see SOME people doing ("10MN plated fleet fits") as opposed to keeping with your long-standing policy of getting rid of split weapon systems.

You want more Gallente missiles, just like you've done with Amarr? Fine, we'll deal with it. Just don't do it like this. The Eris already has the worst reputation as a PVP Interdictor, and your changes, even with you giving it the highest 'Glass Cannon' DPS ON PAPER, do absolutely nothing to make it able to survive a confrontation with anything tougher than a 1-v-1 with SOME of the T1 frigates, and almost NONE of the T2's.

ALL of the Interdictors need to be balanced to where they can HUNT Interceptors with a reasonable chance of winning 1-v-1, but will probably NOT outlast a fight, 1-v-1, with an Assault Frigate, in addition to their role as bubble droppers.
Vanilla Vila
MATAFS
#373 - 2013-10-24 18:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanilla Vila
Interdictor should not be immune to bubble but should deploy them like bombers, either forward or backward, with a small delay.

Now they are underpowered HIC. Why fly a dictor when HIC is better (It can take a few hits anyway where the dictors are a suicide boat).

With a forward bubble, they aren't trapped in, it becomes a matter of skill to put the bubble correctly and then trying to warp off before you reach the edge, etc.

It would also go hand in hand with the class of bomb launcher, etc.
Johan March
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2013-10-24 18:15:59 UTC
Vanilla Vila wrote:
Interdictor should not be immune to bubble but should deploy them like bombers, either forward or backward, with a small delay.

Now they are underpowered HIC. Why fly a dictor when HIC is better (It can take a few hits anyway where the dictors are a suicide boat).

With a forward bubble, they aren't trapped in, it becomes a matter of skill to put the bubble correctly and then trying to warp off before you reach the edge, etc.

It would also go hand in hand with the class of bomb launcher, etc.


To be fair, dictors can do a lot of things that hictors cannot. Bubble a gate, jump through, bubble the other side. Bubble 100km away from a gate to slow down a pursuing opponent fleet (gtfo and cloak). The ability to drop a bubble and move is a significant distinction.

My favorite idea from this thread is to use the new destroyer hulls (Algos, Corax, Talwar, I forget the Amarr one) as "fleet dictors" with bonuses to agility and survivability, but low dps and "skirmish dictors" with solid dps and perhaps slightly more ehp / sig radius than their T1 counterparts.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#375 - 2013-10-24 19:51:22 UTC
Vanilla Vila wrote:
Interdictor should not be immune to bubble but should deploy them like bombers, either forward or backward, with a small delay.
...

With a forward bubble, they aren't trapped in...


You could achieve a similar effect with less coding work by just introducing the Small Micro Jump Drive. Copy the existing module and just tweak some stats (maybe it only shunts the ship forward 50km a time, but spools up much quicker). Dictors could hit and run very effectively like that, and be far less suicidal.

Then just make the Interdictors skill affect the MJD cooldown.
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Moist Towelettes.
#376 - 2013-10-24 20:13:30 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Until there is a second set of T2 Destroyers I think you should have these stick to their racial primary weapons.

Amarr = Lasers
Gallente = Hybrids
Caldari = Missiles
Minmatar = Projectiles

And don't try to say that the Eris is already a Hybrid boat, its not. You said you were doing away with split weapon systems and you have done that except on select Navy Faction Ships, which is fine. T2 symbolizes specialization so do not split its weapons up.

Other than that it seems solid to me, maybe a shield resist bonus on the Flycatcher to compete with the Heretic's armor resist bonus?


What would you think about them scrapping the Eris as a gunboat, and turning it into a T2 version of the Algos produced by CreoDron?


Defintely plausable.. a drone boat means that it does not require guns to deal damage, freeing up fitting for easier Double Bubble fits. So yes.. a drone Eris I could defintely get behind.
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2013-10-24 23:34:47 UTC
With the Tech 2 specialized tilt shouldn't these be less focused on doing damage and more on the movement control aspect.
Leave dealing more damage to a second line of T2 Destroyer's or as mentioned in another thread make the other hull a minor command ship with damage potential. Interdictor's should have a role in the low sec enviroment Much in the same way that a Stealth bomber can still be effective even with out its bomb in low sec
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#378 - 2013-10-25 01:14:23 UTC
The number of people here crying about split weapon systems is hilarious.
Yes, lets hate on the Eris because it'll track well and despite being down mids for tackle, will slap frigs around just fine with the new rocket bonuses. It's far and away the highest damage output. Plus If you don't like rockets, the ship still has the 2nd highest output after the Sabre. Not to mention, the application bonuses are at the destroyer level, so you will get them by default.

The Flycatcher has always been good, and a bit of an underdog. Now it's better, and for anything but a bubble ****, the FC outperforms the Heretic.

The Heretic should not have lost its explosion velocity bonus. IMO, if tanking is the flavor of it, drop the range bonus and give it the explosion velocity bonus back.

The Sabre is a Sabre.

A VOTE FOR SPLIT WEAPONS IS A VOTE FOR A DIVERSITY!
LONG LIVE SPLIT WEAPONS

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

LakeEnd
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2013-10-25 07:30:09 UTC
These are T2 ships, so they are supposed to be specialized, right? So why not make them specially good at tackling and surviving while doing that (speed, agility, low sig, t2 resists and what not). If you are worried about turning them to wtfbbqpwn machines that screw up balance of other ships, then remove some turrets/launchers for all I care. Make them good at their job, which is tackling fleets, offensive ability is distant second priority.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#380 - 2013-10-25 08:53:18 UTC
LakeEnd wrote:
These are T2 ships, so they are supposed to be specialized, right? So why not make them specially good at tackling and surviving while doing that (speed, agility, low sig, t2 resists and what not). If you are worried about turning them to wtfbbqpwn machines that screw up balance of other ships, then remove some turrets/launchers for all I care. Make them good at their job, which is tackling fleets, offensive ability is distant second priority.

The 'T2 are more specialised' concept has largely gone out of the window at this point.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.