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Phoenix
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Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#1 - 2013-10-09 21:12:33 UTC
Has to be one of the better looking game effects I think. Watching a salvo of torpedoes launch from it tends to bring a "That Looks Cool" in fleet.

Yes, for no other reason than I like it, I fly a Phoenix. Usually it is against stationary objects because as everyone knows in the Dread line up, it isn't even in the line up. I know people who never saw one on the field till they saw me in one. That aside, why not make some changes to make this a viable ship to be in?

If you think about it, do something to make it better against the stationary targets. Make it the dread people want to use for structures and I dare even say they could be used effectively against other dreads in siege since they are relatively non-moving unless bumped.

Also it hold 15 rounds which is like a fourth of the other two that actually have to reload. Its rate of fire is the slowest as well. How about making it a ship that isn't just there for a hair extra DPS? Slowcat Carriers can most times out DPS this dread.
Ginger Barbarella
#2 - 2013-10-09 22:08:54 UTC
But it's a Dreadnought. Dreadnought. The name alone says awesome, even if its POS-bashing days are over. Lol

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-10-10 01:48:45 UTC
Kregan Gadhar wrote:
Has to be one of the better looking game effects I think. Watching a salvo of torpedoes launch from it tends to bring a "That Looks Cool" in fleet.

Yes, for no other reason than I like it, I fly a Phoenix. Usually it is against stationary objects because as everyone knows in the Dread line up, it isn't even in the line up. I know people who never saw one on the field till they saw me in one. That aside, why not make some changes to make this a viable ship to be in?

If you think about it, do something to make it better against the stationary targets. Make it the dread people want to use for structures and I dare even say they could be used effectively against other dreads in siege since they are relatively non-moving unless bumped.

Also it hold 15 rounds which is like a fourth of the other two that actually have to reload. Its rate of fire is the slowest as well. How about making it a ship that isn't just there for a hair extra DPS? Slowcat Carriers can most times out DPS this dread.



The Phoenix in it's current form is not terribly useful outside of structure bashing.

Citadel Torpedoes and Citadel Cruise missiles don't stack up against turret dps. At least when it comes to blapping subcaps. Moros/Rev are still leaders of the pack.

The Phoenix is theoretically capable of some stupid alpha numbers on paper. Actually blapping subcaps with one in PvP is not advised. ADHC has used Pheonix for C5 anom escalations only when things are webbed and painted to ****, you can alpha Sleeper Battleships off the field quite easily. Citadel launchers suffer from low magazine sizes and longish load times pushing their effective DPS down.

Pretty much the only reason to fly one is because you like the hull, and/or big missile explosion animations. Which are gorgeous.
Blodhgarm Dethahal
8 Sins of Man
Stray Dogs.
#4 - 2013-10-10 03:35:37 UTC
Could just change the bonus from kinetic only to all damage types (or make it a rate of fire bonus which would be a little DPS buff). This gives it the ability to hit resist holes very well and have its own unique edge.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#5 - 2013-10-10 12:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Janeway84
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Could just change the bonus from kinetic only to all damage types (or make it a rate of fire bonus which would be a little DPS buff). This gives it the ability to hit resist holes very well and have its own unique edge.


I dont fly the Phoenix but this sounds like a logical idea +1
Imo they should give dreads drone bays with like 800 m3 drone bay space for lights, mediums, heavy drones.
maybe have a bonus for dreads so that they can still use their drones while in siege mode unlike carriers who must pull the drones in when going triage P

Seen phoenix in action once or twice and only advantage it got it doesnt need targets to be webbed to very low speeds to hit them compared to turret ships, but they dmg is still pretty low imo.
Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#6 - 2013-10-10 13:01:14 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:


The Phoenix in it's current form is not terribly useful outside of structure bashing.

Citadel Torpedoes and Citadel Cruise missiles don't stack up against turret dps. At least when it comes to blapping subcaps. Moros/Rev are still leaders of the pack.

The Phoenix is theoretically capable of some stupid alpha numbers on paper. Actually blapping subcaps with one in PvP is not advised. ADHC has used Pheonix for C5 anom escalations only when things are webbed and painted to ****, you can alpha Sleeper Battleships off the field quite easily. Citadel launchers suffer from low magazine sizes and longish load times pushing their effective DPS down.

Pretty much the only reason to fly one is because you like the hull, and/or big missile explosion animations. Which are gorgeous.



Pretty much what I already said. It isn't even useful for structure bashing because of the fact that even the Naglfar out DPS the ship. I even said in the second paragraph the reason I fly it is I like it. I guess I don't understand the repeat of what I said, just worded differently.
Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#7 - 2013-10-10 13:05:17 UTC
Janeway84 wrote:
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Could just change the bonus from kinetic only to all damage types (or make it a rate of fire bonus which would be a little DPS buff). This gives it the ability to hit resist holes very well and have its own unique edge.


I dont fly the Phoenix but this sounds like a logical idea +1
Imo they should give dreads drone bays with like 800 m3 drone bay space for lights, mediums, heavy drones.
maybe have a bonus for dreads so that they can still use their drones while in siege mode unlike carriers who must pull the drones in when going triage P

Seen phoenix in action once or twice and only advantage it got it doesnt need targets to be webbed to very low speeds to hit them compared to turret ships, but they dmg is still pretty low imo.



Drone Bays were removed from the dreads. I don't see them giving them back, they wanted the dreads to be fleet run ships that had to have support with them.

The missiles still hit when another ship is moving, but the because of all the changes they made to missiles in an attempt to make them better or nerf in some cases, only handicapped the Phoenix even more.

Not wanting to make it "THE" dread to fly, but make it worth flying outside of aesthetics.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-10-10 13:22:19 UTC
Phoenix needs the kinetic damage bonus changed to omni, then it needs a pretty hefty damage increase, something like 30%. That'll give it a decent role as an anti-capital/structure dreadnought, while leaving it bottom of the pile in the blap game.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-10-23 03:13:51 UTC
Kregan Gadhar wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:


The Phoenix in it's current form is not terribly useful outside of structure bashing.

Citadel Torpedoes and Citadel Cruise missiles don't stack up against turret dps. At least when it comes to blapping subcaps. Moros/Rev are still leaders of the pack.

The Phoenix is theoretically capable of some stupid alpha numbers on paper. Actually blapping subcaps with one in PvP is not advised. ADHC has used Pheonix for C5 anom escalations only when things are webbed and painted to ****, you can alpha Sleeper Battleships off the field quite easily. Citadel launchers suffer from low magazine sizes and longish load times pushing their effective DPS down.

Pretty much the only reason to fly one is because you like the hull, and/or big missile explosion animations. Which are gorgeous.



Pretty much what I already said. It isn't even useful for structure bashing because of the fact that even the Naglfar out DPS the ship. I even said in the second paragraph the reason I fly it is I like it. I guess I don't understand the repeat of what I said, just worded differently.


The main purpose of the Phoenix is to find out who in your alliance is prone to making bad decisions.

It's not just that Citadel missile turrets have damage application issues with both explosion radius and velocity, but your missiles are so slow a battleship with no prop mod on can outrun them. So anything you want to hit with the thing means you are sacrificing rig slots for rigors or flares, and your target needs to be painted to **** and covered with more webs than Spiderman comic. Also, a very small quantity of smartbombs present on the field completely and totally nullifies any damage the Pheonix can do.

So it serves three purposes, none of which involve blapping other players in PvP.

You can blap Sleepers with a dedicated PvE support group.
You can grind structures with them.
You can end up as an ALOD on TMC.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-10-23 03:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Incindir Mauser
Gypsio III wrote:
Phoenix needs the kinetic damage bonus changed to omni, then it needs a pretty hefty damage increase, something like 30%. That'll give it a decent role as an anti-capital/structure dreadnought, while leaving it bottom of the pile in the blap game.


I disagree.

CCP should make the Phoenix the ultimate point-blank AoE DPS monster. Let them fit a full rack of eight bomb launchers, with bonuses, etc. And then right before the whole of nullsec finishes training into them because they're awesome anti-blob platforms... nerf them back to where they are now.

Oceans of tears. Oceans.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#11 - 2013-10-23 06:29:24 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Phoenix needs the kinetic damage bonus changed to omni, then it needs a pretty hefty damage increase, something like 30%. That'll give it a decent role as an anti-capital/structure dreadnought, while leaving it bottom of the pile in the blap game.


I disagree.

CCP should make the Phoenix the ultimate point-blank AoE DPS monster. Let them fit a full rack of eight bomb launchers, with bonuses, etc. And then right before the whole of nullsec finishes training into them because they're awesome anti-blob platforms... nerf them back to where they are now.

Oceans of tears. Oceans.


I support this.
Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-10-23 07:32:25 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
At least when it comes to blapping subcaps. Moros/Nag are still leaders of the pack.



FTFY

2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.

My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-10-23 08:32:15 UTC
Camper101 wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
At least when it comes to blapping subcaps. Moros/Nag are still leaders of the pack.


FTFY


Yep, bad DPS of bad damage types. The only reason to fly a Revelation now is if you can't be bothered reloading. It should have a meaningful range advantage over Nag and Moros, but the range of capital turrets is so homogeneous that this basically doesn't exist.
Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#14 - 2013-10-23 13:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kregan Gadhar
Incindir Mauser wrote:
The main purpose of the Phoenix is to find out who in your alliance is prone to making bad decisions.
- Again this is not a reason that CCP should be making ships or nerfing them. If they are a litmus test and that is it, pull them from the game or again, fix them. Not hard, that was the purpose of this post. I don't understand why you are posting to threads with comments like this that don't apply to where the conversation is going.

Incindir Mauser wrote:
It's not just that Citadel missile turrets have damage application issues with both explosion radius and velocity, but your missiles are so slow a battleship with no prop mod on can outrun them. So anything you want to hit with the thing means you are sacrificing rig slots for rigors or flares, and your target needs to be painted to **** and covered with more webs than Spiderman comic. Also, a very small quantity of smartbombs present on the field completely and totally nullifies any damage the Pheonix can do.


Kregan Gadhar wrote:
If you think about it, do something to make it better against the stationary targets. Make it the dread people want to use for structures and I dare even say they could be used effectively against other dreads in siege since they are relatively non-moving unless bumped.
I re-quote myself because it applies again to where this post was headed. I know the weakness of the dread already as does everyone else posting here. Looking to have them make some changes that don't make it super powerful. Making suggestions on what should be changed to make it a ship that is viable and not one that is rarely built.


Incindir Mauser wrote:
So it serves three purposes, none of which involve blapping other players in PvP.

Again, this was never said that it should serve the purpose of blapping nor should it ever if missiles can be taken out with smartbombs. This is Eve PVP 101 stuff.

Incindir Mauser wrote:
You can blap Sleepers with a dedicated PvE support group.
You can grind structures with them.
You can end up as an ALOD on TMC.


I guess your definition and everyone elses for blap I believe are different, but yes I know it can be used with sleepers. Again, not the point of this discussion and still not often used even in WH's.

Structure grinding is still better done with other ships. This isn't a "purpose" for the ship it is just a role that it can actual do and work, otherwise it still fails to be the ship to do this with since ALL the other dreads do it better and quicker. Oh yeah, I made this point already.

Third supposed purpose, CCP doesn't make ships so they get posted on TMC. This isn't a reason or purpose for a ship, this is a failure and again, not on topic with this post here.

You are trolling this post why?
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2013-10-23 14:59:01 UTC
Both the Phoenix & the Leviathan need to be reworked. As they stand they get no love at all.

Simple solution: Let them use Capital Hybrids instead.

Logical solution: CCP fix the broken Capital Torp/Cruise launchers

Best solution: The Gallente, Amarr, & Minmatar races should be purged from existence by the MIGHT of the CALDARI RACE.

o7 Caldari bred

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Denuo Secus
#16 - 2013-10-23 16:01:54 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
At least when it comes to blapping subcaps. Moros/Nag are still leaders of the pack.


FTFY


Yep, bad DPS of bad damage types. The only reason to fly a Revelation now is if you can't be bothered reloading. It should have a meaningful range advantage over Nag and Moros, but the range of capital turrets is so homogeneous that this basically doesn't exist.


If my EFT-Fu isn't really bad the Revelation pulls ahead in DPS at 60km and more. All ammo types/ranges considered ofc.
Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-10-23 18:27:21 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
At least when it comes to blapping subcaps. Moros/Nag are still leaders of the pack.


FTFY


Yep, bad DPS of bad damage types. The only reason to fly a Revelation now is if you can't be bothered reloading. It should have a meaningful range advantage over Nag and Moros, but the range of capital turrets is so homogeneous that this basically doesn't exist.




If my EFT-Fu isn't really bad the Revelation pulls ahead in DPS at 60km and more. All ammo types/ranges considered ofc.


EFT FU is right. But a dread dropped at 60? Never happened. Also: in that case a rail moros out dpses any dread at 200. Would u fly one tho? ;)

2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.

My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#18 - 2013-10-23 19:02:23 UTC
Phoenix?

No, just no.

Not today spaghetti.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#19 - 2013-10-25 07:49:00 UTC
Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#20 - 2013-10-25 14:57:59 UTC
Yeah, some different ideas posted there and not bad. Would be funny to have FoF citadel or such firing from a Phoenix. Wouldn't have to actually lock the target.

Not that I am holding my breath that CCP will change these things. They have never listened to my suggestions in the past on surveys, I don't see that changing now. Just trying to post and make things be brought to light.
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