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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#441 - 2011-11-22 10:21:11 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Or how about my personal favorite. 150k ehp triple plate mega. 1126 dps, 860 ms with agility boost and once again can fit a heavy cap injector.

An abaddon fit similarly has 2.5% less DPS but 10% more EHP and about three times the range, and deals more damage at ranges beyond 7.5km

I'm glad you're impressed with the changes but you'll soon see they're not nearly enough. a 2.5% dps advantage is not a good enough reason to put yourself in the zone of scramwebneut despair, especially when you have to give up EHP to do it which more than negates your advantage in the first place


I fly a Megathron on a regular basis and **** face. it's all how you fly it. Need proof? Yesterdays fleet engagement should shine some light.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tara+Read

And I think you fail to see why I fly gallente as a pilot including the Mega. I LIVE for being in "scramwebneut" despair range. Being in your enemies face, grinding them into the dust... Yeah... That's why I love flying close quarters. Either you or them no holds barred. Either you go up in flames or I do.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#442 - 2011-11-22 10:59:36 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Being in your enemies face, grinding them into the dust... Yeah... That's why I love flying close quarters. Either you or them no holds barred. Either you go up in flames or I do.



Quoting this for hilarity.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#443 - 2011-11-22 11:09:40 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
That's why nobody flies Harbs - not because of some fitting skills every one-year old has maxed anyway.


I like how you ignore my post regarding this matter, about how a Drake has more range, better tank and similar speed.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#444 - 2011-11-22 12:15:28 UTC
Number of 'Nerf Gallente!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Amarr!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Caldari!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Minmatar!' threads in past year: Countless!

That's saying something.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#445 - 2011-11-22 12:29:17 UTC
Saying that the majority of the Eve population is too dumb to deal with a race which deals with the current Eve metagame (bring more than your opponents and slug it out) more effectively than the other races due to having the speed to get out of your standard lol-I-blob-u camp?

Yeh, you may be right.
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
#446 - 2011-11-22 13:14:31 UTC
It's funny that even after the hybrid "buff" info is released , on sisi you still see no rails there
( except for the handful testing the Naga). There is hardly any mention of it here. It is almost as if it is a given that hybrids means blasters.Somehow rails don't count.

Tell me, in exactly what application would anyone use rails,post "buff" as opposed to another weapons system?

What good is a long range weapons system, or the ships that fly it, when they can be scanned down on grid, when most Caldari ships don't even have drones to cope with the first inty that tackles them?

In what application does CCP envision rails being used effectively?

What would you use an Eagle for, fitted with rails?( bear in mind this is supposed to be Caldaris' "Heavy" hac)?

At least for gods sake get rid of on grid scanning so there might be at least SOME point to using rails.

As a question to the devs, is CCP considering getting rid of on grid scanning, and it's accompanying "I win" warp to function?

Make rails relevant. No need to make them OP, but even post patch they arent particularly viable.The introduction of one new ship that can employ them with some effect doesnt solve the problem, it simply masks the issue.

Or you might consider giving ships that have range, and not dps , the speed to dictate the range, as opposed to making them slower and negating any inherent abilities the ship/weapons system might have;or , here's a novel idea, enough grid and cpu to effectively fit, say, an eagle without having to stuff it full of fitting mods, thus killing its tank and any ability to fit mods to aid it's still woeful tracking?

Would be nice if CCP made it so that you might have to actually think a moment as to how to deal with a railboat before you blew it up. Kinda like they do with Minmatar ships.
kyrv
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#447 - 2011-11-22 13:21:36 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Two thoughts:


  • Lose the ~9% DPS increase that short range ammo got with the projectile buff. The purification of damage type was more then enough.

  • Reduce the tracking enhancer falloff bonus from 30% to 15%.


Discuss.



The tracking enhancer had such an obvious upgrade comming for it that it was unbelieveable it hadn't been introduced with it, just that amaising but as you were saying about the close projectile range I believe they were going to give that extra tracking too.. no it is obvious its perfect.. i'd just like to see anything new they ship out in future.
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#448 - 2011-11-22 13:22:45 UTC
no way, i just trained all of that stuff.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#449 - 2011-11-22 18:23:45 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Number of 'Nerf Gallente!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Amarr!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Caldari!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Minmatar!' threads in past year: Countless!

That's saying something.


This is an interesting point. Before Monaclegate, I don't remember many Nerf Minmatar threads - though there were a pretty large number of nerf Angels threads earlier in the year. There was also the usual slice of Nerf Caldari threads, mostly for the Drake and Tengu. There were also the random Nerf Amarr threads usually centered around the Zealot and Geddon... and the ever present Boost Gallente threads which I have usually thought of as fairly reasonable.

However, sometime after Monaclegate some small segment of the community has taken it upon itself to demand that projectiles and Minmatar ships be nerfed into total oblivion by reversing the entire projectile boost -- and more. Of course we have the usual troll suspects like Naomi and more recently Zarnak (the OP)... but there's a bit more to this one as well.

The thing about this request is that there's undeniably something to it - and everyone has their own pet theory as to what's causing the problem. Either way, its being blown way out of proportion by people taking the low road and comparing them to Gallente/Hybrids. I believe it's reasonable to say that Hybrids are recognized as being substandard - and thus comparisons involving them are worse than useless - they're outright misleading. Any argument that's made about X being better than hybrids can apply to any X - lasers, projectiles, missiles, drones, whatever.

This is why I keep insisting that we talk about functioning weapons platforms - lasers, projectiles, and non-cruise Missiles. And on that note, I think it's pretty obvious that's not a clear cut answer for whether projectiles are better than lasers (the other functioning turret system). In all reality, the answer for Projectiles vs Lasers comes down to the ships themselves, your personal preference, the metagame that you find yourself playing against.

Again, I am totally fine with a projectile nerf, but IMO it needs to be relatively tiny. If there is an imbalance, it's certainly not huge - at least when you compare it to functioning weapons system. At any rate, the situation is delicate enough that I wouldn't want to risk nerfing Minmatar until we've had a chance to see how the hybrid boost goes - because to do so is complete folly.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
#450 - 2011-11-22 18:59:23 UTC
Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:
It's funny that even after the hybrid "buff" info is released , on sisi you still see no rails there
( except for the handful testing the Naga). There is hardly any mention of it here. It is almost as if it is a given that hybrids means blasters.Somehow rails don't count.

Tell me, in exactly what application would anyone use rails,post "buff" as opposed to another weapons system?

What good is a long range weapons system, or the ships that fly it, when they can be scanned down on grid, when most Caldari ships don't even have drones to cope with the first inty that tackles them?

In what application does CCP envision rails being used effectively?

What would you use an Eagle for, fitted with rails?( bear in mind this is supposed to be Caldaris' "Heavy" hac)?

At least for gods sake get rid of on grid scanning so there might be at least SOME point to using rails.

As a question to the devs, is CCP considering getting rid of on grid scanning, and it's accompanying "I win" warp to function?

Make rails relevant. No need to make them OP, but even post patch they arent particularly viable.The introduction of one new ship that can employ them with some effect doesnt solve the problem, it simply masks the issue.

Or you might consider giving ships that have range, and not dps , the speed to dictate the range, as opposed to making them slower and negating any inherent abilities the ship/weapons system might have;or , here's a novel idea, enough grid and cpu to effectively fit, say, an eagle without having to stuff it full of fitting mods, thus killing its tank and any ability to fit mods to aid it's still woeful tracking?

Would be nice if CCP made it so that you might have to actually think a moment as to how to deal with a railboat before you blew it up. Kinda like they do with Minmatar ships.



Crickets? I thought as much....
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#451 - 2011-11-22 19:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:

Crickets? I thought as much....


5 hours is hardly "crickets".

-Liang

Ed: FWIW, I mostly agree with you about removing grid scanning and making rails relevant without being OP. Then again, I think those are largely the same thing. (I don't agree so much about the Minmatar/Projectile QQ at the end of the post)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#452 - 2011-11-22 19:38:57 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Number of 'Nerf Gallente!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Amarr!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Caldari!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Minmatar!' threads in past year: Countless!

That's saying something.


There have been a substantial number of nerf Caldari threads, some of them started by the same Amarrian supremacists arguing that projos are overpowered.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2011-11-22 20:20:42 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Number of 'Nerf Gallente!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Amarr!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Caldari!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Minmatar!' threads in past year: Countless!

That's saying something.


There have been a substantial number of nerf Caldari threads, some of them started by the same Amarrian supremacists arguing that projos are overpowered.

No.
There's been 'Nerf Drake!', 'Nerf Tengu!' and 'Nerf Falcon', but never 'Nerf Caldari!'
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#454 - 2011-11-22 20:26:54 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Amarrian supremacists arguing that projos are overpowered.


Ha ha ha! Racist focks!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#455 - 2011-11-22 20:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
DarkAegix wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Number of 'Nerf Gallente!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Amarr!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Caldari!' threads in past year: None
Number of 'Nerf Minmatar!' threads in past year: Countless!

That's saying something.


There have been a substantial number of nerf Caldari threads, some of them started by the same Amarrian supremacists arguing that projos are overpowered.

No.
There's been 'Nerf Drake!', 'Nerf Tengu!' and 'Nerf Falcon', but never 'Nerf Caldari!'


This seems like a pretty weak dodge to me. Just say that there's been Nerf Caldari threads and move on - because there have been and there will be and we'd be disturbed if there weren't.

-Liang

Ed: Besides, most Nerf Minmatar threads are centered around the Hurricane and Vagabond. Occasionally you see complaints of Arty Maelstrom fleets, but that's relatively rare.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#456 - 2011-11-22 21:37:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Besides, most Nerf Minmatar threads are centered around the Hurricane and Vagabond. Occasionally you see complaints of Arty Maelstrom fleets, but that's relatively rare.

This TBH, though it is worth noting that the cane isn't really OP, but rather the harb is kinda shite. Compared to the drake there's nothing wrong with the cane, and the myrm has a small niche, but unlike most gallente ships, it actually performs EXTREMELY well in said niche. The harb in all this tends to get shafted, and, because the myrm has a much more narrow scope of usefulness and the harb is flat out worse, the cane ends up looking OP.

The problem with minmatar, as far as I can tell, is falloff bonuses. The bonuses to falloff (10%/level) are from a time when TEs didn't give their insane bonuses themselves (which was also a mistake IMO, and one based on the laughable idea that falloff is only half as useful as optimal), and when combined with TEs in their current form you end up with ships that have really good damage projection, while at the same time being able to dictate range and escape if need be. Axing either the falloff bonuses from the hulls, the TEs, or a combination of the 2 (maybe 5%/lvl and 15% TE bonus) would solve this issue nicely.

On rails:
On grid scanning needs to go, absolutely. Either that, or on grid warping (which would do a better job of fixing the problem IMO)

On the number of nerf threads: Liang has it right. Before the RMT fiasco there were lots of nerf angel threads, but no one seemed to be complaining about minmatar ships (drakes topped people's hate lists back then). I would even go as far as to say that I saw more talk of nerfing scorch than I did about nerfing ACs.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#457 - 2011-11-22 21:51:23 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
which was also a mistake IMO, and one based on the laughable idea that falloff is only half as useful as optimal


Eh, its certainly not equal to optimal either. IMO they couldn't introduce falloff to TDs without giving them an opposing force in TEs and TCs. Still, I'm not inclined to nerf falloff on TEs and TCs because it'd unnecessarily splash over to Hybrids. The falloff bonuses are also not so suspect to me - it shouldn't be surprising that a ship with a range bonus performs well at range.

I haven't yet formed an opinion of what the best course of action is - though if things were to remain status quo I would undoubtedly need to. I think forming opinions over GTFO or gank are a bit premature with the fallout from the Hybrid boost still in the air. Its entirely possible that any nerf would push things in the wrong direction until we actually understand the new metagame.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#458 - 2011-11-22 21:54:51 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
The problem with minmatar, as far as I can tell, is falloff bonuses. The bonuses to falloff (10%/level) are from a time when TEs didn't give their insane bonuses themselves (which was also a mistake IMO, and one based on the laughable idea that falloff is only half as useful as optimal)...


How is that laughable? All things being equal, shooting out to 99% of your optimal is 100% of your DPS. Shooting out to 99% of your falloff is... 40%?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#459 - 2011-11-22 23:14:49 UTC
It is funny how matar fanboys gathered into this thread , so many crybabies I cant count ...
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#460 - 2011-11-22 23:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
Kingwood wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Being in your enemies face, grinding them into the dust... Yeah... That's why I love flying close quarters. Either you or them no holds barred. Either you go up in flames or I do.



Quoting this for hilarity.


Hilarity? Oh you sad strange little man. Is 28km too close to you in that cane of yours? Typical kids these days. If they cant stay out of point web and scram range they wont fly it. Pussies the lot of you I say!! Lol.