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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#361 - 2011-11-16 22:32:25 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
A real fix would be to nerf Minmatar speed so that it's possible for catch them in a blasterboat.


It seems like it might be prudent to see where the hybrid weapon and ship changes land before complaining about this particular problem. But hey, we could always massively boost hybrids and then massively nerf projectiles because that's not going to cause problems at all.

/facepalm

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#362 - 2011-11-16 22:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Goose99 wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Falloff was changed from 10% per level to 5% per level. The Grimpak Idea Attention is to do this to all ships that currently have the falloff bonus as they are the worst offenders.


Bad idea, obviously result of EFT warrioring. The only larger ships with 10% falloff bonus are expensive boats like Mach, Vargur and Sleipnir. 10% falloff bonus from small boats like Wolf doesn't make it as op due to the speed in that class.

Vargur is bad for pvp. Machs and Sleipnir are too expensive to field en mass. It's the cheap non-10% falloff bonused boats, like canes and rifters, seen in every corner of Eve, that made Winmatar what it is.

A real fix would be to nerf Minmatar speed so that it's possible for catch them in a blasterboat.


Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
A real fix would be to nerf Minmatar speed so that it's possible for catch them in a blasterboat.


It seems like it might be prudent to see where the hybrid weapon and ship changes land before complaining about this particular problem. But hey, we could always massively boost hybrids and then massively nerf projectiles because that's not going to cause problems at all.

/facepalm

-Liang


The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#363 - 2011-11-16 23:41:18 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Im going to shrink the rest of this



The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.


Most of the complaints I have seen, aren't that you can kite easily in Minnie ships but more that they can disengage so easily. I dont necessarily agree with this as you can get a kiting fit on most races ships (minus Gallente) that will also have this trait.

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#364 - 2011-11-16 23:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Goose99 wrote:

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.


Less fittings, less cap use, 10% damage and 5% tracking to rails, 5% damage and 20% tracking to blasters, faster and more agile ships, faster reloads, smaller ammo (and more cap charges), and more.... -_-

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Thomas Orca
Broski is ded
#365 - 2011-11-17 00:20:39 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.


I wouldn't laugh at "Less fittings". One of the primary causes of Winmatar is the fact that they are stupidly easy to fit in comparison to other races.
Goose99
#366 - 2011-11-17 00:34:00 UTC
Thomas Orca wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.


I wouldn't laugh at "Less fittings". One of the primary causes of Winmatar is the fact that they are stupidly easy to fit in comparison to other races.


ACs are easy to fit, it helps, but that's not what created Winmatar. Lasers are harder to fit, but it didn't break Amar. Hybrids won't suddenly be fixed just with more fittings, and it can be easily fixed through something other than fittings. Fittings don't make or break a race. Speed does.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.


Less fittings, less cap use, 10% damage and 5% tracking to rails, 5% damage and 20% tracking to blasters, faster and more agile ships, faster reloads, smaller ammo (and more cap charges), and more.... -_-

-Liang


Yeah, thx for the info. And like 5 m/s faster too... Although it certainly didn't feel like I can take on Winmatar now on sisi though.Lol

Korg Tronix wrote:


Most of the complaints I have seen, aren't that you can kite easily in Minnie ships but more that they can disengage so easily. I dont necessarily agree with this as you can get a kiting fit on most races ships (minus Gallente) that will also have this trait.


That comes with the territory of being the fastest.Cool

True kiting - being both faster while outranging you - is uniquely Winmatar, and there's no way to beat it, which is what's causing all the whine. You don't stand a chance.

You don't hear people call amar boat with Scorch "kiting," because it's slower. You can eventually catch up if you don't pop first. You stand a chance.

Yes, you can nano fit to kit something... other than nano Minmatar. The speed at which your nano fit levels off will always be slower than that of the equivalent Minmatar boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#367 - 2011-11-17 00:34:29 UTC
Thomas Orca wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.


I wouldn't laugh at "Less fittings". One of the primary causes of Winmatar is the fact that they are stupidly easy to fit in comparison to other races.


Dude if the hybrid fittings change went just a little bit further... oh god. Just a tiny bit... >:-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Thomas Orca
Broski is ded
#368 - 2011-11-17 00:40:23 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Thomas Orca wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.


I wouldn't laugh at "Less fittings". One of the primary causes of Winmatar is the fact that they are stupidly easy to fit in comparison to other races.


Dude if the hybrid fittings change went just a little bit further... oh god. Just a tiny bit... >:-)

-Liang


Then they'd almost be like Minmatar Big smile
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2011-11-17 00:46:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Less fittings, less cap use, 10% damage and 5% tracking to rails, 5% damage and 20% tracking to blasters, faster and more agile ships, faster reloads, smaller ammo (and more cap charges), and more.... -_-

-Liang


*Remembers Axel's 3rd "Berserk" movie and wonders if Rails will truly be coming back into style*

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#370 - 2011-11-17 00:48:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Goose99 wrote:
True kiting - being both faster while outranging you - is uniquely Winmatar, and there's no way to beat it, which is what's causing all the whine. You don't stand a chance.

You don't hear people call amar boat with Scorch "kiting," because it's slower. You can eventually catch up if you don't pop first. You stand a chance.


"Whenyou're flying an HML nanodrake at 30km and pwning face, that's not 'kiting', it's a method whereby you use range to mitigate damage while leveraging superior damage projection of your own. This is very similar to kiting, but since it's not a Minmatar ship, using Minmatar weapons, it's not."

Quote:
Yes, you can nano fit to kit something... other than nano Minmatar. The speed at which your nano fit levels off will always be slower than that of the equivalent Minmatar boat.


Hookbills kite Firetails, pretty easily.
Nanodrake kites AC Cane, pretty easily.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#371 - 2011-11-17 00:54:36 UTC
Discussion veers towar the topic of hybrids:

DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE

lol
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2011-11-17 08:25:33 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Discussion veers towar the topic of hybrids:

DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE

lol


?

so you agree with goose99 that kiting is only possible with minmatar ships?
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#373 - 2011-11-17 09:43:25 UTC
Irrespective of the merits for nerfing the Minmatar ships and the modules that support them expressed in this thread, I have issue with the concept of nerfing things in general as a solution. Nerfing and balancing are not the same thing. Nerfing a thing merely creates a temporary power vacuum which is then promptly filled by the next flavor of the month. This is as much true in EVE Online as it is in other MMOs, where you can observe a pattern of things being nerfed only to have some other thing being decried as overpowered a few weeks later by the same people.

More than that, I think it reeks of cowardice and laziness. Why nerf anything? I personally think there is a lot of satisfaction to be had in watching my alliance mates log in by the hundreds and slam themselves into super-capital ships in their disposable battle cruisers. Is this indicative of a power imbalance? Sure. Should something be done about it? Yes, and in fact something is being done about it in Crucible. But was it necessary? That's where I am unsure. Sure, you can say that I am comparing apples to oranges when I liken Minmatar sub-capitals to super-capitals in general, but the point remains the same—there is a thing, commonly called out as being overpowered and imbalanced, which can and demonstrably has been taken down through numbers, through tactics, or through some other tool available to the players.

We can do so much more than whinge on the forums about imbalances. If we truly believe that A Thing is imbalanced, then perhaps the single best way to force change is to overwhelmingly embrace it or analyse and adopt whatever mechanics make that particular Thing so good and apply it to other Things. Hurricanes with AutoCannons and Medium Energy Neutralizers was the Clusterfuck Coalition's response to the proliferation of super-capitals, and it works; but, with greater or fewer numbers one could just as easily have used Armageddons or Thoraxes to accomplish the same thing.

We have within us, each and every one of us, the capacity for innovative thinking and adaptability. Let us use it!

Whinging on forums just makes us appear weak, lazy, and cowardly.

Overcoming obstacles puts us in control of the game.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#374 - 2011-11-17 09:46:24 UTC
How much have you had to drink tonight?ShockedRoll
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#375 - 2011-11-17 09:48:08 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
How much have you had to drink tonight?ShockedRoll

I hope you're following me, space buddy, because it's about to get furious.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#376 - 2011-11-17 15:16:59 UTC
Enough is Enough: Nerf Whiners.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Goose99
#377 - 2011-11-17 16:29:31 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Discussion veers towar the topic of hybrids:

DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE

lol


?

so you agree with goose99 that kiting is only possible with minmatar ships?


When you're slower but has more range, where it's possible for the opponent to catch up and kill you, it's not kiting, and thus balanced.

When you're faster and has more range, where it's impossible for the opponent to catch up and kill you, it's kiting, and thus unbalanced.

And no, nano drake is lulz, and will never be faster than nano cane. In the best case, cane warp away and you get to survive.Lol
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#378 - 2011-11-17 17:01:13 UTC
To be honest. Even a Dual-repair-Mrymidon with pulse lasers. Kites very well and has a really good tank. Most ships can catch the thing, but I'm able to maintain range for a very long time before that happens alot. Pilots who believe that a increase in speed will be enough are r3tard3d. It may be useful in a 1 v 1 situation, but not most other situation were range is alot more important. Gallente are seen threw somewhat of a prism or most close range ships. They're not able to deal with multiple targets unless they're able to tank alot of damage or do so much damage things drop and numbers dont matter as much.

So active tanking (myrmidon) and Insane damage (daredevil, thrasher). Even a brutix with rigs and active reps is as fast as a drake without nano's. THink there is like 50m/sec diff. All the Drake has to do is prolong any atempts the brutix makes to catch it. In a 1 v 1 sit. Eve has been slowly becoming 1 v many and direct engagements are not very viable. That is with any close range setup. Be it either ham-drake, armor-hurricane. 2 ships with weapon systems that are not hybrids but have the same issue.

BOOST CLOSE RANGE PVP!
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#379 - 2011-11-17 17:32:48 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
How much have you had to drink tonight?ShockedRoll

I hope you're following me, space buddy, because it's about to get furious.



St Martin !!

Boujoulais Nouveau -I'm gonna get drunk for all you guys tonight don't worry Lol

Maybe I'll find hybrids good enough after being drunk Lol
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#380 - 2011-11-17 21:19:12 UTC
Break it down to the basics:

Amarr should be masters of medium range. Nice optimal. Poorer tracking up close.

Gallente should be masters of point blank combat. We'll see how they fare once the changes hit TQ.

Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.

Now let's suppose for the sake of argument that the Gallente are once again masters of short range. Let's also suppose that they can now more easily close the gap with Amarr. Would people use them? High risk and do or die vs. the Winmatar platform that doesn't have to risk it all every time.

When Minmatar are out of wack the game notices alot more. When ships were going super fast in the nano age - Amarr medium range meant absolutely nothing. When the range of Minmatar ships got drastically increased - almost doubling in some cases - Gallente are completely shut out. In the old days that kiting window was 5km - 10km. You can make a mistake in that window. You can get caught. Not so much when your window is 20km+