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Ishukone Ships and Surrounding issues... Coming SOON (TM)

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Pingu
Cosmos Butt Pirates
#281 - 2013-10-10 14:34:52 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Molica Iwaira wrote:
Just BAN this insane illegal isk pumping abomination called gambling sites... All of them!

I cannot think of any other game balance breaker in such huge proportions than this - sadly - sanctioned and even rewarded form of "to your face" cheating.

How can CCP who is so meticulous about even tiny exploitations let this facade go - is beyond all reason.

Out of game skills of running an organized website to suck insane amount of isk with zero mastery of in game skills??

WTF??! This is exploitation!



Please explain why it is both insane and illegal without all the hyperbole and frothing at the mouth.


He could mean that the endorsement of lottery sites is illegal under Icelandic law. Might not be illegal, and I am not an Icelandic law expert, but not really the sort of thing you want to experiment with in a court.

http://eng.innanrikisraduneyti.is/laws-and-regulations/english/lotteries/
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#282 - 2013-10-10 15:05:53 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
It's fun to see how the posting dynamic changes when it's a dev thread. c'mon trolls, where you at?


Technically all threads belong to the Dev's...
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#283 - 2013-10-10 15:10:50 UTC
Careby
#284 - 2013-10-10 15:14:56 UTC
I can understand why CCP might prefer to give in-game gifts. They cost CCP virtually nothing (ignoring whatever design and coding it takes to create them, and ignoring any losses due to unforeseen repercussions among the customer base). And ignoring the existence of collectors willing to pay lots of isk for rare items, they would be harmless symbolic gestures. Surely the Scorpion Ishukone Watch gifts were not primarily intended by CCP to be ISK windfalls for the recipients.

But collectors do exist in the game, resulting in some pretty worthless-seeming items selling for some pretty fantastic amounts of ISK. To the average individual player, 15 billion iSK is quite a windfall.

So it seems to me that CCP should fully understand and take to heart that some of their players put a very high value on pixels, and when gifts are deemed appropriate, it might be less problematic to give out-of-game items. While some of us might not like CCP giving even an out-of-game gift to some particular organization or other for some arbitrary reason or other, I think very few of us would see it as a problem with the game. Unlike in-game marketable gifts, which will always be seen as having a potential effect on the level of the playing field.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#285 - 2013-10-10 15:15:01 UTC
This is a peacetime reimbursable posting op. Please do not use any excessively blingy posting modules

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#286 - 2013-10-10 15:19:27 UTC
This is the only way CCP can inject life into the Eve community, by outrage :)
Artimis Scout
Wormhole Cartography
#287 - 2013-10-10 15:21:28 UTC
Just an FYI, at the end of month CCP will be spawing rare ships, clothing and multi-billion ISK implants to certain people in secret.
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#288 - 2013-10-10 15:22:56 UTC
Artimis Scout wrote:
Just an FYI, at the end of month CCP will be spawing rare ships, clothing and multi-billion ISK implants to certain people in secret.


Citation required.
Artimis Scout
Wormhole Cartography
#289 - 2013-10-10 15:27:35 UTC
Miilla wrote:
Artimis Scout wrote:
Just an FYI, at the end of month CCP will be spawing rare ships, clothing and multi-billion ISK implants to certain people in secret.


Citation required.


https://store.eve.com/collector-s-edition/eve-the-second-decade-collector-s-edition-116

Citation Given
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#290 - 2013-10-10 15:32:39 UTC
Careby wrote:
it might be less problematic to give out-of-game items.


What if they sell the out-of-game items for cash, and use that cash to convert PLEX to ISK?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#291 - 2013-10-10 15:36:48 UTC
Artimis Scout wrote:
Just an FYI, at the end of month CCP will be spawing rare ships, clothing and multi-billion ISK implants to certain people in secret.

...which anybody can get and is in no way favoring any particular in-game group.

If you think this is an issue you still don't understand what the problem is.
Careby
#292 - 2013-10-10 15:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Careby
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Careby wrote:
it might be less problematic to give out-of-game items.


What if they sell the out-of-game items for cash, and use that cash to convert PLEX to ISK?


A. Scandal!
B. Cash is fungible and cannot be traced back to CCP.
C. Once in the form of cash, it's up to the owner how to use it - buy pizza, hookers and blow, plex.


What if a high-level CCP employee uses their salary to buy a new car, and the car dealer uses his profit on selling the car to buy his daughter EVE: The Second Decade Collector's Edition, and she trades the tattoo for ISK in-game?

(Correct answer: There are no girls in EVE!)
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#293 - 2013-10-10 15:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
A Research Alt wrote:

--Spawning people billions of ISK is wrong
--Spawning people billions of ISK in the form of otherwise unobtainable ships is wrong
--Spawning people billions of ISK because they are already super rich is wrong
--Spawning people billions of ISK secretly is wrong
--Somer Blink is not a community website
--Somer Blink is not a charity
--Somer Blink is a business
--"We got away with it before" is not an acceptable reason to continue doing the wrong thing
--There were and are far more deserving people than Somer
--Said people do not deserve billions of ISK anymore than Somer did


This is a manufactured crisis. CCP is a business and it has the right and, more importantly, the responsibility to take efforts to maintain good relations with organizations that improve the quality of the gaming experience for its customers. Somer Blink easily fits in that category, along with others like Chribba, Eve University, etc. Let's look at each one of these arguments that "A Research Alt" put together that so many people thoughtlessly "liked":

"Spawning people billions of ISK is wrong." B.S. - Oh really? Did you complain about the Gnosis? How about those nice and lovely implants that we got? Or about about the free Aurum? Everyone one of us has been a recipient of free isk. So no, its not wrong.

"Spawning people billions of ISK in the form of otherwise unobtainable ships is wrong." Why? Because you don't have the isk to buy one? They aren't unobtainable. In fact, they are now MORE obtainable since more are in the system. Just because you aren't space rich and can't get an otherwise useless ship doesn't automatically make something "wrong."

"Spawning people billions of ISK because they are already super rich is wrong." Wow. Really? Being space rich is a crime? Let me tell you something. Chribba, as a good example, is very space rich.. but considering how much he has done for CCP, I would not think twice if CCP gave him a one of a kind ship, or gifted him with a special prize every now and again.

"Spawning people billions of ISK secretly is wrong." Maybe they wouldn't have to do is secretly if people used their heads to think rather than just stupid rage about what they didn't get.

"Somer Blink is not a community website" - Yes, it is. A large number of people in game play on Somer Blink and it is talked about a lot in game. So yeah, since the community likes to use it, it is a "community" website.

"Somer Blink is not a charity" - What does this have to do with anything? So what?

"Somer Blink is a Business" - Yep, a business no one is required to access, but quite a large number do for their own personal enjoyment. Their business model also brings a certain level of content to the game as well.

"We got away with it before" is not an acceptable reason to continue doing the wrong thing" - Since I already disproved what you think is "wrong", they really didn't get away with it.. because it WASN'T WRONG!!!

"There were and are far more deserving people than Somer" - Yep.. but oh wait, a lot of them are space rich so they are now suddenly disqualified because bad people have lots of ISK.

"Said people do not deserve billions of ISK anymore than Somer did" - Um, maybe you got caught up in what you were writing because this doesn't make sense. What "said people"? Are you talking about the "far more deserving ones"?

Stop feeding this garbage crisis. There are plenty of serious issues that CCP needs to work on. This CLEARLY isn't one of them. If you need one to be bothered by, go to the Terms of Service thread and voice frustrations there.. THAT is a serious issue. This issue is one that shows me who thinks they are sick with personal "entitlement" issues.

And let's be VERY clear.. you aren't entitled to anything. Even to play this game.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#294 - 2013-10-10 16:08:44 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
bullshit


Please, stick your tongue farther up CCP and Trebor's assholes. I don't think it's all the way in yet.
Xtreem
Knockaround Guys Inc.
#295 - 2013-10-10 16:08:45 UTC
Easiest way to limit the damage

All ISW given out to employees and promo to blink get renamed to another type of scorp leaving the originals given out their worth back.
They let people know how many of each ship they will give away in total so people are aware, Ie we will be giving out a max of XX of this type of Limited disk.

They are not bias and hold the draws themselves or only give at CCP event (like the original release of the ISW)

They should also takes some notes on the things they keep seeming to get wrong :)
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#296 - 2013-10-10 16:13:16 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Orakkus wrote:
bullshit


Please, stick your tongue farther up CCP and Trebor's assholes. I don't think it's all the way in yet.


I take it that was your best response? No wonder you were easily induced to liking "A Research Alt"'s post.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#297 - 2013-10-10 16:23:31 UTC
I wish posts had a "dislike" button, because this one is a prime candidate.
Orakkus wrote:


This is a manufactured crisis. CCP is a business and it has the right and, more importantly, the responsibility to take efforts to maintain good relations with organizations that improve the quality of the gaming experience for its customers. Somer Blink easily fits in that category, along with others like Chribba, Eve University, etc. Let's look at each one of these arguments that "A Research Alt" put together that so many people thoughtlessly "liked":

Congrats, you're the most passionately and aggressively wrong person I've seen defending this issue, not merely stating that CCP has a right to do this, but saying they must do it. Do you realize that they might have a responsibility to maintain the integrity of the sandbox nature of EVE? Do you think that maybe these organizations do not need subsidies, and that players would keep the community services going for their own good, without the extra carrot?
Quote:

"Spawning people billions of ISK is wrong." B.S. - Oh really? Did you complain about the Gnosis? How about those nice and lovely implants that we got? Or about about the free Aurum? Everyone one of us has been a recipient of free isk. So no, its not wrong.

You are denser than the matter white dwarfs are made of. Those ships and items were given to everyone, thereby not effecting balance. If you can't see the difference between that and only giving a select few people items behind closed doors, I don't know what to tell you.

Quote:

"Spawning people billions of ISK because they are already super rich is wrong." Wow. Really? Being space rich is a crime? Let me tell you something. Chribba, as a good example, is very space rich.. but considering how much he has done for CCP, I would not think twice if CCP gave him a one of a kind ship, or gifted him with a special prize every now and again.

"Spawning people billions of ISK is wrong." Maybe they wouldn't have to do is secretly if people used their heads to think rather than just stupid rage about what they didn't get.

Chribba already has a one of a kind ship - a veld revelation in Amarr. That's the special privilege CCP has conveyed on him, that is how they honored him. They did not honor him by spawning items for him, they did not give him items to trade for free isk.

Spawning essentially free isk for anybody is wrong, regardless of wealth level.
Quote:

"Somer Blink is not a community website" - Yes, it is. A large number of people in game play on Somer Blink and it is talked about a lot in game. So yeah, since the community likes to use it, it is a "community" website.

"Somer Blink is not a charity" - What does this have to do with anything? So what?

"Somer Blink is a Business" - Yep, a business no one is required to access, but quite a large number do for their own personal enjoyment. Their business model also brings a certain level of content to the game as well.

It is a business venture with little in the way of culture or community. It has its fans, but it is in no way a community site that approaches some of the bigger groups in eve's websites. Why is CCP giving subsidies to a group like this, while other more worthier groups lack the same boons?
Quote:

"We got away with it before" is not an acceptable reason to continue doing the wrong thing" - Since I already disproved what you think is "wrong", they really didn't get away with it.. because it WASN'T WRONG!!

Stop feeding this garbage crisis. There are plenty of serious issues that CCP needs to work on. This CLEARLY isn't one of them. If you need one to be bothered by, go to the Terms of Service thread and voice frustrations there.. THAT is a serious issue. This issue is one that shows me who thinks they are sick with personal "entitlement" issues.

You have proved little more than your own lacking as a communicator. Your arguments have little more to them but claims with no evidence or warrants.

So you'll be perfectly fine then when Goonswarm's board of directors each gets a free 20B isk worth item because Goonswarm's turn came up on the eve profiles blogs? Of course not, think about what you are advocating for. Think of the obvious unbalancing effect this would have if you take it to it's logical conclusion.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
Careby
#298 - 2013-10-10 16:30:46 UTC
Xtreem wrote:
Easiest way to limit the damage...


Naw, let's be straight about it. Seed the market with NPC sell orders for however many of the rare ships CCP wants in the game. Start the price ridonkulously high and decrease it each day until they are all gone.

CCP can then spawn handfuls of ISK to their most favored players, who can then buy the ships, if they actually want them. (The extra ISK added to the game are removed as the ships sell, so there is no net effect on the economy.)

Problem solved. Right? No? Why would you care that some players are getting free ISK?
Sointu Luonnotar
Doomheim
#299 - 2013-10-10 16:48:15 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
This is a manufactured crisis. CCP is a business and it has the right and, more importantly, the responsibility to take efforts to maintain good relations with organizations that improve the quality of the gaming experience for its customers. Somer Blink easily fits in that category, along with others like Chribba, Eve University, etc.


ToSGate was a manufactured crisis. This is not. Somer is not a service EVE couldn't live without. If Chribba quit and took all the services he provides to us free of charge, well, that would hurt EVE quite a bit. Might not kill it, but we would be reeling from the loss of eve-files, eve-offline statistics monitor, EVE search which was invaluable during the old forums, and many many more, last but not least Tritanium production would drop at least 50% without VeldFleet. Okay, maybe just 25%.

Eve University offers golden advice for everyone, both new and old players and maintain a highly useful wiki, not to mention what all they do in-game.

Compared to all this Somer Blink does ****-all. I wouldn't shed a single tear if it was disbanded today.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#300 - 2013-10-10 16:54:47 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:
Congrats, you're the most passionately and aggressively wrong person I've seen defending this issue, not merely stating that CCP has a right to do this, but saying they must do it. Do you realize that they might have a responsibility to maintain the integrity of the sandbox nature of EVE? Do you think that maybe these organizations do not need subsidies, and that players would keep the community services going for their own good, without the extra carrot?


No one has even come close to proving that this breaks the sandbox of Eve. Many have alluded to it, but none have really figured out how it would.

Quote:

You are denser than the matter white dwarfs are made of. Those ships and items were given to everyone, thereby not effecting balance. If you can't see the difference between that and only giving a select few people items behind closed doors, I don't know what to tell you.


So, you are telling me that Ishukone Watch Scorpions, which have worst stats than standard Scropions, effect balance? And this is even more so because they were given secretly? And yet somehow, I'm dense?

Quote:

Chribba already has a one of a kind ship - a veld revelation in Amarr. That's the special privilege CCP has conveyed on him, that is how they honored him. They did not honor him by spawning items for him, they did not give him items to trade for free isk. Spawning essentially free isk for anybody is wrong, regardless of wealth level.


They didn't grant him that really. He actually had to threaten CCP for that to happen, so no, I don't consider it "an honor" that they let him keep it there, just good business sense on CCP's part. Now, I'll agree that spawning isk (i.e. the T20 scandal) that someone can continuously profit from, either because it improves your chance of victory or improves your income repeatedly is wrong. However, a single gift, given to a website or anybody because they give your own business some benefits is not wrong. It's smart.

Quote:

It is a business venture with little in the way of culture or community. It has its fans, but it is in no way a community site that approaches some of the bigger groups in eve's websites. Why is CCP giving subsidies to a group like this, while other more worthier groups lack the same boons?


Really? Are you sure about that? Somer Blink has always been a constant conversation in the fleets I've been in from Faction Warfare and Low-sec to null-sec runs. Almost daily the talk about Somer Blink and its promotions gets discussed. Are they not like that in Goonswarm fleets? I'd be very surprised if they weren't. And who decides who is worthier? It is clear by quite a few who posted on this thread that many who are upset about Somer Blink would also be upset about any number of worthier groups. A catch-22 for CCP, really.

Quote:

You have proved little more than your own lacking as a communicator. Your arguments have little more to them but claims with no evidence or warrants. So you'll be perfectly fine then when Goonswarm's board of directors each gets a free 20B isk worth item because Goonswarm's turn came up on the eve profiles blogs? Of course not, think about what you are advocating for. Think of the obvious unbalancing effect this would have if you take it to it's logical conclusion.


And what evidence do you seek? Or rather, what evidence would YOU listen to? As far as your Goonswarm example, you are right, I would not want them to get a 20Bil isk item for free. But not because they are already space rich, or because I dislike them. If, however, they can point to a public website, something useable by all players (either fun or functional) that clearly has demonstrated a significantly large amount of use by multiple groups of players (friend and foe) then I would not care that they got it because it would not be any moral violation.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander