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CCP Shills on the CSM

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Frying Doom
#81 - 2013-10-07 08:22:34 UTC
Why is it for the last few years every time CCP screws up, all you ever see is the CSM saying they disapprove of CCPs actions followed by the CSM actively defending CCP?

I think in the next election we really need a "Disband the CSM" Button or at least a "None of the Above Button", so we can actually see how many people do not want the CSM, unlike the last election where these were strangely missing.

Hard to say you represent the players, if you don't know if more players would be happier without the CSM, than with it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#82 - 2013-10-07 08:41:03 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What all this grrr boils down to is: Does CCP have a legitimate right to hand out in-game rewards for out of game actions?


It boils down to: why does CCP think it's ok to hand out billions of isk to a select few and does so in secrecy.

We're not talking about 2 years up ahead when almost everybody has that gifted ship making it by then far less worth then it was at the moment of hand out.
We're talking about the here and now, not if when then.


As I understand it, the receipients themselves asked for the gift not to be publicised. Which is I think their right.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-10-07 08:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Montmazar
Malcanis wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What all this grrr boils down to is: Does CCP have a legitimate right to hand out in-game rewards for out of game actions?


It boils down to: why does CCP think it's ok to hand out billions of isk to a select few and does so in secrecy.

We're not talking about 2 years up ahead when almost everybody has that gifted ship making it by then far less worth then it was at the moment of hand out.
We're talking about the here and now, not if when then.


As I understand it, the receipients themselves asked for the gift not to be publicised. Which is I think their right.


CCP has a right to give away tech 2 BPOs too, and the recipients have a right to request silence there as well. Yes, that's true. It's also meaningless. CCP has a right to do whatever they want to their game. But is it fair? Does it enable favoritism? Does it make the game better, or worse? Making sure CCP gets the right answers to those questions is supposed to be your job, not looking down at the UN Charter and Magna Carta, taking off your reading glasses and sagely letting us know that yes, in fact, a private company can do whatever it wants with its own product within the guidelines of the law. We knew that already and we don't care. Rights are not the issue here. This is not a judicial matter. It is a matter of fairness in a spaceship game. Yes, the stakes are low, and absurd, but those stakes are the entire reason for your fake spaceship political job here, and you are failing at that job.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2013-10-07 08:49:54 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Why is it for the last few years every time CCP screws up, all you ever see is the CSM saying they disapprove of CCPs actions followed by the CSM actively defending CCP?


Because of your gigantic confirmation bias, which only allows you to see the evidence that suits your preconceptions.

Like for instance they way you've dishonestly ignored the CSM's communication about CCP's proposal to give Somer actual unique ships.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#85 - 2013-10-07 08:52:24 UTC
Montmazar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What all this grrr boils down to is: Does CCP have a legitimate right to hand out in-game rewards for out of game actions?


It boils down to: why does CCP think it's ok to hand out billions of isk to a select few and does so in secrecy.

We're not talking about 2 years up ahead when almost everybody has that gifted ship making it by then far less worth then it was at the moment of hand out.
We're talking about the here and now, not if when then.


As I understand it, the receipients themselves asked for the gift not to be publicised. Which is I think their right.


CCP has a right to give away tech 2 BPOs too, and the recipients have a right to request silence there as well. Yes, that's true. It's also meaningless. CCP has a right to do whatever they want to their game. But is it fair? Does it enable favoritism? Does it make the game better, or worse? Making sure CCP gets the right answers to those questions is supposed to be your job, not looking down at the UN Charter and Magna Carta, taking off your reading glasses and sagely letting us know that yes, in fact, a private company can do whatever it wants with its own product within the guidelines of the law.


Which T2 BPOs were created and purposed as community awards with no intrinsic value of their own?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-10-07 08:55:43 UTC
Malcanis:

Suppose CCP gave every director of Goonswarm Federation about 10 PLEX each for their contributions to the sandbox.
This comes out to, very roughly, 300 billion ISK worth of PLEX being given directly to the command staff of the largest alliance in the game.
Since PLEX doesn't refine to anything, has no intrinsic value aside from what players assign to it, and since our leadership is already ridiculously wealthy, you should have no problem with this, right? After all CCP has a right to reward its content creators.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-10-07 08:55:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Montmazar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What all this grrr boils down to is: Does CCP have a legitimate right to hand out in-game rewards for out of game actions?


It boils down to: why does CCP think it's ok to hand out billions of isk to a select few and does so in secrecy.

We're not talking about 2 years up ahead when almost everybody has that gifted ship making it by then far less worth then it was at the moment of hand out.
We're talking about the here and now, not if when then.


As I understand it, the receipients themselves asked for the gift not to be publicised. Which is I think their right.


CCP has a right to give away tech 2 BPOs too, and the recipients have a right to request silence there as well. Yes, that's true. It's also meaningless. CCP has a right to do whatever they want to their game. But is it fair? Does it enable favoritism? Does it make the game better, or worse? Making sure CCP gets the right answers to those questions is supposed to be your job, not looking down at the UN Charter and Magna Carta, taking off your reading glasses and sagely letting us know that yes, in fact, a private company can do whatever it wants with its own product within the guidelines of the law.


Which T2 BPOs were created and purposed as community awards with no intrinsic value of their own?


A T2 BPOs value is in making space money. Similarly, so too is the value of rare and unique spaceships.

Money can be exchanged for goods and services.

Next you tell me that it's cool, Somer is already really rich, ignore that BoB was also rich, and also completely ignore the favoritism issue and the issue of why a gambling ring deserves any rewards at all.

Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-10-07 08:57:45 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What all this grrr boils down to is: Does CCP have a legitimate right to hand out in-game rewards for out of game actions?


It boils down to: why does CCP think it's ok to hand out billions of isk to a select few and does so in secrecy.

We're not talking about 2 years up ahead when almost everybody has that gifted ship making it by then far less worth then it was at the moment of hand out.
We're talking about the here and now, not if when then.


As I understand it, the receipients themselves asked for the gift not to be publicised. Which is I think their right.



Malcanis,

It doesn't matter who asked for secrecy, CCP or Somer. CCP favoured Somer with gifts and it was done in an underhanded manner.


[quote] Malcanis : From Post 69
As for "out of touch", if 499,999 EVE players want CCP told that 1+1=3 and I know that 1+1=2, I'm going to tell CCP that the answer is '2'. I don't care tuppence for popularity, either with CCP or with the playerbase.

You might not care for popularity, either with CCP or with the playerbase, but it sure seems like you are trying to stay on good terms with CCP by what can be only described as defending the actions that CCP has done, and how they were done, with Somer.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2013-10-07 08:58:21 UTC
Or hell, replace PLEX with some random NEX store item with an equivalent ISK value.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#90 - 2013-10-07 09:04:59 UTC
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:
A CSM member is supposed to represent his voters and not act on his own opinions.

I support this thread.


How are the CSM supposed to know who voted for them and so who they should be representing?

YOU may or may not have voted for the dude, he doesnt know, and if you did and he doesnt share your ideals thats YOUR fault for not picking a CSM who represents your ideals. In any case he can still represent your concerns to CCP, though he does not share your sentiments he can still represent you.

NOT supported. The guy is a straight up dude.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-10-07 09:08:23 UTC
Technically the way you represent your constituents is by actually sticking to the principles you were elected on.

Of course since nobody asked "would you support another T20" this kind of got overlooked.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kate stark
#92 - 2013-10-07 09:18:01 UTC
it's not even about battleships, or blueprints, or 1 unit of trit.

the issue here is that if we don't question this decision our inaction will simply send the message that we're fine with CCP handing one they want, anything they want, without a word about it. that is why it's being compared to the t20 stuff, because that kind of thing is both stupid and dangerous.


does any one begrudge the people at blink getting a thank you for their efforts? maybe one or two, but that's not important.

are there people that are more deserving and should be higher up the list of people to be rewarded? almost certainly.

would we have been remotely upset if CCP said "we're issuing a bunch of scorpions to people we think have done something noteworthy relating to eve starting with the people at blink and soon after others who have also made notable contributions"? we'd probably a bit uneasy about essentially dumping isk in people's accounts but we'd certainly not disagree with the spirit of the gesture.

somer isn't relevant, scorpions aren't relevant. what is relevant is the god awful precedent this sets with regards to devs handing things to players out of thin air.

for what it's worth personally i have no issue with rewarding people who go above and beyond, however i don't think ingame items that affect the sandbox are the way to do it. the free gametime, and tickets to fanfest or whatever are how we should show our appreciation to those people. not by saying "here, have a fist full of isk courtesy of your favourite dev".

now i've just woken up so that could all be complete bollocks or i could have articulated my point well and i have no idea which so i'm going to just hit post and edit the stupidity out of it later.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Bronco Platz
Doomheim
#93 - 2013-10-07 09:22:03 UTC
Mabelaba wrote:
The CSM is nothing but a CCP marketing tool. Think that's obvious by now.


Fun fact: Ripard said the same in his own words:

Quote:
Mara, that analogy makes no sense whatsoever. You seem to think that the CSM can make CCP do something or not do something. I assure you this is not the case. We can influence here and there, sometimes, when CCP is in the mood to be influenced. And sometimes, we're not even told something is happening when it happens, which includes BOTH cases involving SOMER.


Malcanis wrote:
Most of them are NDA'd, alas.


This three letters are the favourit letters of CSM, right? NDA here, NDA there, "I can´t tell you because of the NDA. Haha!".

I wonder what the CSM is really for. Some guys get free trips to Iceland? (Okay, this is not really a prize;)) Getting free accounts? Get an "eyes only" insindeview to the future developement of Eve?

At the current state, the CSM is really nothing more than a PR-Gag of CCP.

This signature is under NDA. Sorry.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#94 - 2013-10-07 09:22:25 UTC
Some right morons here.

"A CSM is supposed to represent his voters opinions..."

Wrong.

You vote for a CSM based on their opinions and ideas at time of election - after they become a CSM they are entitled to their own opinions and are no longer accountable to those who elected them. But rather they are normally cozying up to CCP to put in a job application, or get as much as possible from their free holidays to Iceland.

The CSM have no authority, are not accountable and other than advise CCP and legitimise CCP actions in the eyes of many players - the CSM are redundant and detrimental to actual player feedback by means of applying an additional layer of bureaucracy for any good player ideas to now reach CCP.

I know I'm in a minority with my view on it, but I say scrap the CSM - The game is better off without the pretense that they do anything useful any motivated player couldn't do. CCP just need to get their act together and listen to a wider base of players - like how often does the F&I actually get any dev comments/input anymore. Communication is still poor from CCP.

Flame on. o/
Kialopreyst
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-10-07 09:28:49 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis:

Suppose CCP gave every director of Goonswarm Federation about 10 PLEX each for their contributions to the sandbox.
This comes out to, very roughly, 300 billion ISK worth of PLEX being given directly to the command staff of the largest alliance in the game.
Since PLEX doesn't refine to anything, has no intrinsic value aside from what players assign to it, and since our leadership is already ridiculously wealthy, you should have no problem with this, right? After all CCP has a right to reward its content creators.


Can we include FC's in this aswell? I'd love to receive theoretical PLEX for being awesome.
wowyouareacow
NANA221 Corporation
#96 - 2013-10-07 09:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: wowyouareacow
The bottom line about the Ishukone scorpions is that they can be resold in game for a lot of money.
SOMER Blink also got a ton of ISK from the recent prizes.
In doing so, CCP swung the in game economy in SOMER's favour. And I'm not sure why, seeing as SOMER are already ridiculously rich.
Kuni Oichi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-10-07 09:42:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
What all this grrr boils down to is: Does CCP have a legitimate right to hand out in-game rewards for out of game actions?


It boils down to: why does CCP think it's ok to hand out billions of isk to a select few and does so in secrecy.

We're not talking about 2 years up ahead when almost everybody has that gifted ship making it by then far less worth then it was at the moment of hand out.
We're talking about the here and now, not if when then.


As I understand it, the receipients themselves asked for the gift not to be publicised. Which is I think their right.


So you're happy that they and CCP can collude to defraud anyone who bought the ships off them then? Purchasers would have believed they were getting one of eighty odd ships, not one of over a hundred. It's a small difference but it evidently adds up to several billion given how the price on them has dropped since the news got out.


And given you think it's okay for CCP to give secret gifts worth hundreds of billions of isk to the same corporation they've enriched to the tune of X $$$ and again hundreds of billions of isk, where exactly does that leave the CSM then given you think it's okay and Ripard was desperately shilling for ccp?
Flamespar
WarRavens
#98 - 2013-10-07 09:42:32 UTC
Christ EVE players are a bunch of whiny brats at times.

CCP has a long history of rewarding players for improving the game. From the PLEX individual players can get from the buddy system to these golden scorpions.

These people work to improve your game. And you want them to do it for free.

Idiots.







Can I haz my golden scorpion now CCP?
Kate stark
#99 - 2013-10-07 09:44:46 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Christ EVE players are a bunch of whiny brats at times.

CCP has a long history of rewarding players for improving the game. From the PLEX individual players can get from the buddy system to these golden scorpions.

These people work to improve your game. And you want them to do it for free.

Idiots.







Can I haz my golden scorpion now CCP?



calls people idiots.

completely misses the point.

is that irony?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Frying Doom
#100 - 2013-10-07 09:51:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Why is it for the last few years every time CCP screws up, all you ever see is the CSM saying they disapprove of CCPs actions followed by the CSM actively defending CCP?


Because of your gigantic confirmation bias, which only allows you to see the evidence that suits your preconceptions.

Like for instance they way you've dishonestly ignored the CSM's communication about CCP's proposal to give Somer actual unique ships.

Would this be a communication where you disapprove of CCPs actions before you started to actively defend them?

Like I said

disapprove -> actively defend.
So you can say "But we didn't just act like a PR arm of CCP" but it is all the CSM seems to do for the last few years.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!