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Let's break a t2 Monopoly.
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Ginger Barbarella
#41 - 2013-10-09 22:38:03 UTC
1. I see Brewlar has a new alt...
2. Search function. Use it.
3. You really need to try to understand more about Industry before popping off about something you clearly know nothing about.

I'm not even going to try going into what either a) has been said already in this thread or b) what has already been said IN THE THOUSAND 'NERF T2 BPOs!' THREADS that have come before. CCP really needs to start banning accounts that intentionally recreate stupid, ignorant threads over and over again.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
India99
Tactical Feed.
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2013-10-10 05:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: India99
every once in a while some Brewlar Kuwakai makes a new thread about his T2 BPO crusade.

Let's discuss
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#43 - 2013-10-10 06:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Alice Loreley wrote:
Well you may be proud with your 10% profit from invention. I don't want to waste my time if the profit is below 40-50%.

I generally aim for at least 10% profit, but will consider as low as 5% depending on the market conditions. However, some items sell for over 300% profit... until others catch on and enter the market. When I was building jump freighters, I averaged at least 7% (>500m profit), then the market collapsed and I got out of that.

I tend to aim for 50% to 200% profit on T1, but that is much higher volume and lower value. There are far fewer items that qualify.

Kethas Protagonist wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
T2 BPOs do not control the markets of any decent volume items worth inventing. T2 BPOs do rule the markets of low volume items not worth inventing.

Minor quibble: a market being unprofitable for invention and a market's volume being dominated by T2 BPO production are not independent. If T2 BPOs all vanished tomorrow, presumably prices would go up in the low-volume markets. Either invention would become profitable or people would completely stop using the affected item, and I really have trouble seeing the latter happening on many items as the cost difference between BPOs and invented BPCs, and thus the price spike, is rarely egregious.

The pro-T2 BPO camp has several good arguments, but "inventors would not benefit from T2 BPO removal" is overreach.

If T2 BPO were removed, prices on those items primarily supplied by the T2 BPO would rise, and it still wouldn't affect most inventors, as the volume of those items isn't very high, so the entire market demand could be filled by very few inventors.

One extremely expensive T2 BPO = one assembly line. Invention doesn't have this limitation.

Also, T2 BPO holders tend to sell at or near the invention price, to maximize their profits.

If you are looking for a poster child to play with math, try T2 hull reppers, which I believe have abysmal volume, probably exceeded by T2 small smartbombs. [Guesses.]
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-10-10 13:04:54 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

I generally aim for at least 10% profit, but will consider as low as 5% depending on the market conditions. However, some items sell for over 300% profit... until others catch on and enter the market. When I was building jump freighters, I averaged at least 7% (>500m profit), then the market collapsed and I got out of that.

I tend to aim for 50% to 200% profit on T1, but that is much higher volume and lower value. There are far fewer items that qualify.


As others have said, % profit per item really does not matter.

What matters is these two ratios:

1) Profit per item ISK / time to make item
2) Sales volume per day of an item / Numbers of items produced by all manufacturers per day

Maximising the first means you maximise your profit per hour. Maximising the second means you stand a chance of selling it once you have made it.

It doesn't matter of your profit % is small, so long as you can make a lot of the item per hour, and sell them.
Haulie Berry
#45 - 2013-10-10 16:27:50 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Alice Loreley wrote:
By the way i build to many ships (including capitals) alone, just by my own hands without spending single isk to hear you sarcastic bullshit.


And is proud of it, to boot.




Ah... yeah, I missed that the first time around. MIMAFs always have a certain... smell... to them, though.
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-10-11 03:56:52 UTC
I am glad I found this tread before spouting off myself.

I just recently started dabbling in invention by working on items I personaly use. Getting serious is going to have to wait a few months til my next remap. (Why oh why did I get the invention bug when Perc/Wil mapped) I have had a few concerns myself about the effect of T2BPO's and if invention was worth working on any further due to certain advantages those lucky owners have. Now having read all the comments, those concerns are much diminished. I still have a lot to learn, but now I know it is worth learning as long as I take the time to research the market for what is best.
Sheri Angela
#47 - 2013-10-11 05:57:42 UTC
T2 invention is certainly profitable. I build mainly hulls, but occasional rig from time to time. Average ROI investment is around 18% across my entire portfolio of products, but a lot fluctuation in margin by product over time. While I say ROI I honestly think in cashflow.

I've only run into a few products where T2 BPO owners could keep up with demand such as the Astarte or at least that's my assumption from the consistently low price point.

TIDI = Increasing profit while decreasing service level to the customer disguised a nicely marketed benefit. What would Amazon have done here.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-10-11 19:55:26 UTC
The new decryptors helped a lot. It was profitable before them as well for many items. However, I am for the removal of t2 bpo's.

It was a poorly implemented system and should be fixed. As for how to fix it in a way that's fair for everyone(current bpo holders), I don't know.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#49 - 2013-10-12 19:50:10 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:
Only one thing isn't good at all - rarity of t2 bpo's. Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market.


Oh, how blind you are....

Dead Game.
Alice Loreley
Citadel Technologies Unit
#50 - 2013-10-12 20:55:40 UTC
Sheri Angela wrote:
T2 invention is certainly profitable. I build mainly hulls, but occasional rig from time to time. Average ROI investment is around 18% across my entire portfolio of products, but a lot fluctuation in margin by product over time. While I say ROI I honestly think in cashflow.

I've only run into a few products where T2 BPO owners could keep up with demand such as the Astarte or at least that's my assumption from the consistently low price point.


Glad to hear some new details. What do you think about t2 drones? I'm sharp on Gallente invention and as i expect this course of further action will be more than logical. But i still have a little doubt about my success because my math is based on solid probability 42%. But it's no warranty for me to receive exactly the same number of t2 bpc after invention cycle.

EVE Online: Black Hole. Coming really soon.

And... Oh, yeah, small secret - Drifters are Talocan.
Haulie Berry
#51 - 2013-10-12 21:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Rath Kelbore wrote:
The new decryptors helped a lot. It was profitable before them as well for many items. However, I am for the removal of t2 bpo's.

It was a poorly implemented system and should be fixed. As for how to fix it in a way that's fair for everyone(current bpo holders), I don't know.


If CCP thought T2 BPOs were a problem, it would be quite easy to deal with them in a fashion that would upset nobody: Simply buy them up covertly and slowly, over time, with ISK confiscated from botters/RMT.
Haulie Berry
#52 - 2013-10-12 21:38:56 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:
Sheri Angela wrote:
T2 invention is certainly profitable. I build mainly hulls, but occasional rig from time to time. Average ROI investment is around 18% across my entire portfolio of products, but a lot fluctuation in margin by product over time. While I say ROI I honestly think in cashflow.

I've only run into a few products where T2 BPO owners could keep up with demand such as the Astarte or at least that's my assumption from the consistently low price point.


Glad to hear some new details. What do you think about t2 drones? I'm sharp on Gallente invention and as i expect this course of further action will be more than logical. But i still have a little doubt about my success because my math is based on solid probability 42%. But it's no warranty for me to receive exactly the same number of t2 bpc after invention cycle.



I... what?

So let's break this down: Even with the plethora of tools available that utterly trivialize determining if a certain item is a good choice for invention, you can't figure it out on your own?

And, yet, you're still butthurt about BPOs?

What was I saying about a mix of lazy/stupid earlier? Roll
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#53 - 2013-10-12 23:13:40 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:
It was a poorly implemented system and should be fixed. As for how to fix it in a way that's fair for everyone(current bpo holders), I don't know.



They did fix it. They introduced invention. This moved alliance income from T2 BPO ownership (at the time, moons weren't worth much because all the T2 BPOs in the game didn't come near to using up all the moon goo) to moon ownership (an income source that can be shot at), and allowed anyone to start making bucketloads of ISK making T2 items.

T2 BPO owners got their monopoly broken, and everyone else got to start producing T2 items, causing prices to plummet. So now we have cheap T2 goods, and a ton of people making a ton of money off of those goods.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-10-13 02:19:20 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:
It was a poorly implemented system and should be fixed. As for how to fix it in a way that's fair for everyone(current bpo holders), I don't know.



They did fix it. They introduced invention. This moved alliance income from T2 BPO ownership (at the time, moons weren't worth much because all the T2 BPOs in the game didn't come near to using up all the moon goo) to moon ownership (an income source that can be shot at), and allowed anyone to start making bucketloads of ISK making T2 items.

T2 BPO owners got their monopoly broken, and everyone else got to start producing T2 items, causing prices to plummet. So now we have cheap T2 goods, and a ton of people making a ton of money off of those goods.


Good points. However, don't t2 bpo's have an advantage over invented bpc's? Why have remnants of an old system in place other than not wanting to be unfair to people that have purchased or at one point won valuable t2 bpo's? Maybe that's enough reason to keep them in place. It just seems it serves no purpose to have them.

I wasn't around before invention and don't own any t2 bpo's. So my point of view on the subject is admittedly limited.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#55 - 2013-10-13 02:36:50 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Good points. However, don't t2 bpo's have an advantage over invented bpc's? Why have remnants of an old system in place other than not wanting to be unfair to people that have purchased or at one point won valuable t2 bpo's? Maybe that's enough reason to keep them in place. It just seems it serves no purpose to have them.

I wasn't around before invention and don't own any t2 bpo's. So my point of view on the subject is admittedly limited.



T2 BPOs can make a small volume of one specific good at a low marginal cost with astronomical capital requirements.
Invention can make a large volume of many varied goods at a higher marginal cost with little capital requirements.

BPOs have some advantages, Invention has many advantages.


Why not remove the BPOs? Because nobody is hurt by their continued existence, so there's no reason to arbitrarily punish people for making certain legitimate investments. Not confiscating legitimately acquired goods is the default position; you need a strong reason to confiscate legitimately acquired goods from people. "Why not?" is not a strong reason to do something.

I wasn't around before invention, and I don't own any BPOs either. But the information on the state of the market pre-invention is readily available. Not to mention that divining that state is trivial.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Haulie Berry
#56 - 2013-10-13 02:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Rath Kelbore wrote:


Good points. However, don't t2 bpo's have an advantage over invented bpc's?


They have a HUGE advantage, but only if you're bad at math/finance/economics and don't know what "opportunity cost" is. The capital value of a T2 BPO makes them extremely impractical for anyone who doesn't already have a massive amount of money. Even if you acquired a BPO for "Free" via theft/scamming/GM hax/etc., you would almost certainly be better off selling it at market value and using the money for investments with better return.

If you're convinced that they have a significant advantage, however, there's something you can do about it: Go buy some T2 BPOs.

Quote:
Why have remnants of an old system in place other than not wanting to be unfair to people that have purchased or at one point won valuable t2 bpo's? Maybe that's enough reason to keep them in place. It just seems it serves no purpose to have them.


Because destroying trillions in asset value for no good gameplay reason would be extremely bad business. CCP quite cheerfully changes or removes things that are causing a problem all the time, and that's important for the welfare of the game. If, however, things that are factually known to not be problematic were to suddenly be destroyed merely to salve the butthurt of jealous newbs who can't do math? That would be a catastrophe.

It wouldn't help you, it would only hurt them. This is commonly referred to as "spite" and it probably isn't a very good design philosophy.
Alice Loreley
Citadel Technologies Unit
#57 - 2013-10-13 09:05:37 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Sheri Angela wrote:
T2 invention is certainly profitable. I build mainly hulls, but occasional rig from time to time. Average ROI investment is around 18% across my entire portfolio of products, but a lot fluctuation in margin by product over time. While I say ROI I honestly think in cashflow.

I've only run into a few products where T2 BPO owners could keep up with demand such as the Astarte or at least that's my assumption from the consistently low price point.


Glad to hear some new details. What do you think about t2 drones? I'm sharp on Gallente invention and as i expect this course of further action will be more than logical. But i still have a little doubt about my success because my math is based on solid probability 42%. But it's no warranty for me to receive exactly the same number of t2 bpc after invention cycle.



I... what?

So let's break this down: Even with the plethora of tools available that utterly trivialize determining if a certain item is a good choice for invention, you can't figure it out on your own?

And, yet, you're still butthurt about BPOs?

What was I saying about a mix of lazy/stupid earlier? Roll


Oh dear, are you still here? I was quite sure i've explained myself earlier. Are you lazy to read posts or stupid to understand what does they mean? Don't waste your time, sweet butthurt is somewhere else, waiting for you to deliver some pleasant times. Cool

EVE Online: Black Hole. Coming really soon.

And... Oh, yeah, small secret - Drifters are Talocan.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#58 - 2013-10-13 09:18:59 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Sheri Angela wrote:
T2 invention is certainly profitable. I build mainly hulls, but occasional rig from time to time. Average ROI investment is around 18% across my entire portfolio of products, but a lot fluctuation in margin by product over time. While I say ROI I honestly think in cashflow.

I've only run into a few products where T2 BPO owners could keep up with demand such as the Astarte or at least that's my assumption from the consistently low price point.


Glad to hear some new details. What do you think about t2 drones? I'm sharp on Gallente invention and as i expect this course of further action will be more than logical. But i still have a little doubt about my success because my math is based on solid probability 42%. But it's no warranty for me to receive exactly the same number of t2 bpc after invention cycle.



I... what?

So let's break this down: Even with the plethora of tools available that utterly trivialize determining if a certain item is a good choice for invention, you can't figure it out on your own?

And, yet, you're still butthurt about BPOs?

What was I saying about a mix of lazy/stupid earlier? Roll


Oh dear, are you still here? I was quite sure i've explained myself earlier. Are you lazy to read posts or stupid to understand what does they mean? Don't waste your time, sweet butthurt is somewhere else, waiting for you to deliver some pleasant times. Cool



T2 drones are better than T1 drones, but what is a conversation about the relative combat efficacy of different drones doing in your thread about how you think that Timmy shouldn't have a shiny toy if you don't get the same thing?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-10-13 10:04:27 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Good points. However, don't t2 bpo's have an advantage over invented bpc's? Why have remnants of an old system in place other than not wanting to be unfair to people that have purchased or at one point won valuable t2 bpo's? Maybe that's enough reason to keep them in place. It just seems it serves no purpose to have them.

I wasn't around before invention and don't own any t2 bpo's. So my point of view on the subject is admittedly limited.



T2 BPOs can make a small volume of one specific good at a low marginal cost with astronomical capital requirements.
Invention can make a large volume of many varied goods at a higher marginal cost with little capital requirements.

BPOs have some advantages, Invention has many advantages.


Why not remove the BPOs? Because nobody is hurt by their continued existence, so there's no reason to arbitrarily punish people for making certain legitimate investments. Not confiscating legitimately acquired goods is the default position; you need a strong reason to confiscate legitimately acquired goods from people. "Why not?" is not a strong reason to do something.

I wasn't around before invention, and I don't own any BPOs either. But the information on the state of the market pre-invention is readily available. Not to mention that divining that state is trivial.

One area I quickly noticed that BPO's have a good advantage is in making some BPCs. Take mining crystals for example. I can make a ten run copy, (leaving out decryptors) whereas a BPO owner can make a 100 run one. Fortunately that advantage drops to almost nothing with things like ships. So there are certain BPC markets I will avoid, not a big deal.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-10-13 11:13:50 UTC
Gargep Farrow wrote:
One area I quickly noticed that BPO's have a good advantage is in making some BPCs. Take mining crystals for example. I can make a ten run copy, (leaving out decryptors) whereas a BPO owner can make a 100 run one.


However those copies take longer to make than the items themselves. T2 Mining crystal BPO takes (at PE 0) a minute and a half to manufacture a single item and 5 minutes to make a 1-run copy. So that 100-run Veldspar Mining Crystal II BPC took 8.3 hours to create, in that time the BPO owner could instead have manufactured over 300 crystals