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[pyfa][rubicon][preview] Bastion Module and Marauder Changes
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#41 - 2013-10-10 03:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
This post has bastion mode

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#42 - 2013-10-10 04:01:25 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Finished multiple hours of test drive on each marauder.

Overall, except of the paladin every single one gets worse at L4(it you flown them already with mwd and 2-3 slot tank). The only reason why the paladin gets better is the way a double optimal bonus works with lasers(73.5+50km with multi and 110+50km with x-rax) and that you don't need to move much in most missions in amarr space.

The Kronos does to little dps with rails and without sentry's, it is horrible as stop and go blaster ship compared to my Vindi. The Vargur also is horrible as stop and go auto cannon ship compared to my armor mach(leave alone that it loses 320m/s top speed and is nearly 600m/s slower than the mach now), it would need a optimal bonus for artis, since you run into dps issues at higher ranges. The golem is pretty much pointless with the current mwd + torps setup, because it gets ridiculous slow. For CMs the changes improve nothing at all(if you didn't over tank it).

As for the Paladin fitting, this is how I flown it, for Blockade you need a extra EANM, for Guristas assault a extra Kin Hardener, the rest of the amarr missions can be flow with this setup(I want my sentry's back CCP, instead of the comedy tank for bads). X

[Paladin, overtanked]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer

Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Domination Target Painter

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I

Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I


Curator II x1
Hobgoblin II x4
Hobgoblin II x1


I still think that bastion and mjd is just a comedy idea, what actually does ruin the marauders in a lot of her niches(like Incs, WH, rail Kronos, ammo effective Vargur and torp golem), without adding anything important in return.



So you were running your vargur with a 2 slot tank before? That would be kinda amazing. Did you drop a tracking enhancer in the low and replace it with a nano?

You were running missions in it that had zero Ewar? Nothing but Angels then?

Would love to see you "before and after" fits, mission completion times, and salvage numbers.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#43 - 2013-10-10 04:19:10 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Miasmos, you don't use one set of crystals in a PvE Paladin, you change according to the range your enemies are at. The fact that the fit shows scorch does not mean that you use only that. And the fact that you do more DPS with close range ammo does not mean that you finish a mission faster. The main advantage that the new bastion module gives is that you can hit the whole/a bigger part of the room at once. A lot of ppl underestimate the time you need to actually target, get in range and clear the whole room, especially in missions where the spawns are not closely packed. And thats the main reason that MJD+Beams will work better for a Paladin when Rubicon hits, as shown in the graphs above.

Your "corrections" btw actually make the fit suboptimal.

1. A fourth HS is unneeded both fitting wise and for cost/effect purposes due to heavy stacking of damage mods (4DPS extra with conflag).
2. The Aerator is also suboptimal if you are acquainted with the number of salvos needed to pop many NPCs. EFT DPS does not equal in-game DPS, especially when you lose salvoes with scorch and gamma against some popular BSs and elite Cruisers making the 0.2 faster RoF (1more salvo in 20) suboptimal.
3. I can understand the DC+EANM combo, but you are still a juicy killmail. It won't avert a gank, the difference in DPS needed is 1 Tornado/Talos or a couple catas. A difference that will not stop anyone from blaping a 1bil hull if he wants it (and its not like you are in a belt among weaker tanked ships for the ganker to choose a different target).
4. Lastly, using a marauder without utilizing the new MJD bonus with the bastion module is an exercise in futility. You are trying to use the Paladin the same way you did before Rubicon, thus hurting your isk/hr. You get in, MJD once to the middle and then proceed to bastion.


4th faction heat sink keeps my ocd in check. 3 of one kind and one of a different kind, hell no I could never fly a ship like that! imo it is an insignificant difference either way.

t2 rof vs damage rig, looking at tachyons. the 257 volley damage difference seems meh, I rarely leave targets in low amounts of hp. at a difference of 65 damage a gun I don't see it meaning a whole lot. 1797/65 = 27.6 shots to make up for it. I don't think any targets i'm shooting at live through enough shots for that to make a difference. although hell .4s rof difference probably isn't really all that great either with the 1s server ticks.

anything to make them throw away more money to try and gank me is a good thing imo. and while they wont be warping in and having choices of who to shoot they will be aware of who is in the area and who is worth ganking. +30% omni resists on ~20k of hp is a decent bit. my lowest resist is 71% kinetic on 10k of armor, and 73% everything on 9625 hull.

mjds go 100km, there are very few missions where that will land you in the middle of anything significant.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#44 - 2013-10-10 04:27:22 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
So you were running your vargur with a 2 slot tank before? That would be kinda amazing. Did you drop a tracking enhancer in the low and replace it with a nano?

You were running missions in it that had zero Ewar? Nothing but Angels then?

Would love to see you "before and after" fits, mission completion times, and salvage numbers.


xl booster + invlun would probably be plenty of tank for most missions. yay shield boost bonus plus winmatar resists!

ah well my varg almost never leaves station as is, and will probably leave even less the way things look. probably my fault for running in caldari space where ACs are mostly useless unless put on a zoom zoom mach. and anything arty does I'm pretty sure tachs do better. Varg is so mismatched for guristas ecm immunity with bastion isn't even a thought. I'd probably be better off flying a cnr and just eating a few jam cycles, even with my awful missile skills.

ah well, I can't wait for the optimal bonused paladin to launch!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#45 - 2013-10-10 05:51:02 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
So you were running your vargur with a 2 slot tank before? That would be kinda amazing. Did you drop a tracking enhancer in the low and replace it with a nano?

You were running missions in it that had zero Ewar? Nothing but Angels then?

Would love to see you "before and after" fits, mission completion times, and salvage numbers.


xl booster + invlun would probably be plenty of tank for most missions. yay shield boost bonus plus winmatar resists!

ah well my varg almost never leaves station as is, and will probably leave even less the way things look. probably my fault for running in caldari space where ACs are mostly useless unless put on a zoom zoom mach. and anything arty does I'm pretty sure tachs do better. Varg is so mismatched for guristas ecm immunity with bastion isn't even a thought. I'd probably be better off flying a cnr and just eating a few jam cycles, even with my awful missile skills.

ah well, I can't wait for the optimal bonused paladin to launch!


I cant wait till the test server isn't still stuck in 1985 with Marty McFly so I can just test my own build for myself.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-10-10 07:38:56 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Miasmos, you don't use one set of crystals in a PvE Paladin, you change according to the range your enemies are at. The fact that the fit shows scorch does not mean that you use only that. And the fact that you do more DPS with close range ammo does not mean that you finish a mission faster. The main advantage that the new bastion module gives is that you can hit the whole/a bigger part of the room at once. A lot of ppl underestimate the time you need to actually target, get in range and clear the whole room, especially in missions where the spawns are not closely packed. And thats the main reason that MJD+Beams will work better for a Paladin when Rubicon hits, as shown in the graphs above.

Your "corrections" btw actually make the fit suboptimal.

1. A fourth HS is unneeded both fitting wise and for cost/effect purposes due to heavy stacking of damage mods (4DPS extra with conflag).
2. The Aerator is also suboptimal if you are acquainted with the number of salvos needed to pop many NPCs. EFT DPS does not equal in-game DPS, especially when you lose salvoes with scorch and gamma against some popular BSs and elite Cruisers making the 0.2 faster RoF (1more salvo in 20) suboptimal.
3. I can understand the DC+EANM combo, but you are still a juicy killmail. It won't avert a gank, the difference in DPS needed is 1 Tornado/Talos or a couple catas. A difference that will not stop anyone from blaping a 1bil hull if he wants it (and its not like you are in a belt among weaker tanked ships for the ganker to choose a different target).
4. Lastly, using a marauder without utilizing the new MJD bonus with the bastion module is an exercise in futility. You are trying to use the Paladin the same way you did before Rubicon, thus hurting your isk/hr. You get in, MJD once to the middle and then proceed to bastion.


TBH your graphs show a very poor pulse fit performance wise. The power of the new pulse paladin is in close range ammo which you can, as you mentioned, insta swap for the cost of one volley in time. The pulse fit deals 200 more close range dps with significantly better tracking. The dps is same as beam fit up to 50km (rat orbit). It will takesome time for it to sink in but as is, pulse paladin will be the best laser gank for L4 and anoms.

I'll argue some points:
• factioning last heat sink, matter of taste (note that your fit has a faction tank module as mockery instead)
• burst aerator II: pulse ROF and ROF in general is better the faster it is to negate overkill in average. Your point about volley counting does not apply enough to pulse, in practise, to offset the dps difference and gains from faster rof.
• damage control is a no brainer if you have the tank to fit it without a loss.
• as for miasmos fit, a 2 slot tank with damage control should do, leaving room for te.

In conclusion, I'll personally use pulse since it seems plain better unless a Gleam fit is pulled off functionally. The tach fit is not bad, it's steady as they come with a bit worse high end cap.
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-10-10 08:16:55 UTC
As a general educative point for all the newbies reading, the reason why burst aerator II is a miracle rig is the order in which stacking penalties apply.

Stacking penalties apply in a reverse order of the strenght of the affected bonus. The weakest bonus of the lot gets the worst penalties. Since burst aerator II has a stronger rate of fire bonus than a faction heat sink, it is the first in line and gets no penalties. Since collision accelerator II has a similiar strenght to faction heat sinks in the damage modifier, it gets penalized after faction sinks and before the t2 sink, at fourth penalty roll.

In the regular case of paladin/nm, the difference is about 30-50dps more out of burst aerator with a side penalty of more cap intensive lasers.

Bertrand's argument is that the minuscule volley increase kills enough ships in less volleys to offset the faster rate of fire. My counter is that this sounds like an odd guess and needs proof. After all, faster rate of fire affects the overall completion times in all circumstances (blood, sansha, drones).
Elena Ranning
008Bezirk322sschornsteinfeg432ermeiste0191r
#48 - 2013-10-11 07:45:05 UTC
Hi

Where can I see an official list of changes for ships for the upcoming expansion?
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