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Best Non-Pirate L4 boat?

Author
stoicfaux
#21 - 2013-10-06 22:52:40 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
It doesnt change it. There were extensive math posts around the time the hulls change, the ONLY cruise hull that rivals the CNR for DPS gotten down is the TFI (and TFI wins) and...maybe a golem, cant remember, it was an outsider in the converstations anyway and now its changing.

Edit: The SNI isnt a million miles awawy, but (imo) the only reason to fly one is if being lazy to abuse tank, or sub-par skills to need its tanking facets to get by. It's nice to be sure, but in the DPS race, it is an "also ran".

CNR is "best" due to damage selection, missile velocity bonus (reduces volley counting), a 25% built in rigor bonus that works at any range unlike TPs, can field sentry drones, etc.. However, it's fitting is pretty tight (i.e. difficult without high skills and faction/deadspace mods.) It has no open high slot for a tractor beam.

Golem is probably a very close 2nd to the CNR. With on-the go looting/salvaging, the extra loot probably makes up for the CNR's advantages. Downside is being more vulnerable to NPC defenders (however NPC defenders are very weird in their effectiveness, meaning, the DPS loss looks to be much less than the raw stats would indicate.)

TFI is best in raw DPS if you fill the lows full of DDAs and BCUs, but is very tight on CPU and has a very thin tank.

SNI is easy to fit (lots of cpu/grid.) However, the lower volley damage and lack of missile velocity bonus can hurt its performance. OTOH, if you disconnect, you will probably still have a ship after you reconnect. With the new 5 second TP cycles in Rubicon, you will have a plethora of mid slots to play with.

Domi's (and Ishtar's) 800 DPS and 100km optimal is very nice and very cheap. Adding some 425s makes the Domi rather competitive with other battleships.

Gunships have noticeable advantages over missiles mainly in reduced DPS loss to overkill, being able to kill frigates at range easily, etc.. With Rubicon, the Paladin's and Kronos' one minute jump drive cycle puts everything at short range (no falloff isuses) or at long range (no tracking issues) or both. OTOH, a Scorch Paladin can hit ~90km of optimal in Bastion mode.


tl;dr - There is no "best" anymore, especially if you have several "best of" categories for consideration. Fly what is fun, where fun is defined as whatever doesn't make your soul bleed from the repetitiveness of mission running.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

snake03
#22 - 2013-12-15 02:28:07 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Typhoon fleet issue is the end to all these debates every time if you're looking at DPS.

Of course, not cheap and high skills required.


TFI is beast.

[Typhoon Fleet Issue, Damsel]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Photonic CPU Enhancer I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field

Drone Link Augmentor I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
True Sansha Heavy Nosferatu

Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Warrior II x10
Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x5


Rigged for Gallante space.



No prop mod?Shocked

I'm just a modern day caveman in search of a bigger club.

Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-12-15 03:36:51 UTC
there is no perfect l4 boat.

in amarr space against sansha/blood i would say napoc or baddon.
for damage selection Raven Navy or maybe Typhoon.
for lowest ammo consumption Domi or Ishtar (watch your drones).

Megathron can be a nice ship works if i remember correct nearly as good as a Raven Navy.
Legion i did a few missions in a shield ham legion worked but didnt rly like it.
Hyperion tough to fit but good tank.
Tempest i havent found a mission fit i liked so far.

but if u get marauders i would think of using the vargur or the golem.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#24 - 2013-12-15 22:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Typhoon fleet issue is the best raw dps hull(however kind of hard to use). CNR is good and easy to use in a CM fitting, it can be extreme good with torps at high SP levels and with a lot of movement. Domi is extreme good for the price, but for my taste a bit to inflexible with the movement(if you invest some serious isk quite some hulls can beat it, but at the price point of a normal domi it is unmatched).

In the hands of a skilled player the navy apoc is a very good platform in the Amarr BS line-up, since quite similar to the mach it combines massive range, high tracking, high speed, ok turret and good sentry dps.

The tempest feels kind of underwhelming, even with max skills and to somebody that got tons of experience flying pests and machs in pve(not that I stated exactly this in the mini BS rebalance thread). It gets the job done(if you can fly it) but compared to the mach it is just gimped in every aspect. While range, mobility and dps are the obvious contenders, as I stated back then, the to weak capacitor just holds the hull back, because it is vastly depended on mobility with the mwd, and needs every single slot for tank, range, speed or dps to get at least to somewhat acceptable BS standards.

[Tempest, I blame Rise]
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Gyrostabilizer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II
Large Dynamic Fuel Valve II


Garde II x3

Edit: While the mach is generally overrated a ton by people that are bad at positioning and movement(if you got this down you might notice that the mach at certain ranges is quite bad against other hulls/fittings in the 1.5-2B price range) by it's massive tracking and range, flown actively it is one of the most enjoyable hulls for L4 and one of the fastest on top of it.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

erg cz
ErgoDron
#25 - 2013-12-16 13:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: erg cz
I wonder what is wrong so much with Armageddon navy issue? It is much cheaper (350 mio ISK) than any other navy BS. It can launch 5 sentry drones and use 7 turrets, so 12 guns shooting at the same moment. It does not have bonuses for drones or range weapons, but it can carry 5 sentry, 5 medium and 5 light drones of desired damage type, it has biggest basic armor tank and biggest cargo hold. If it would have bonuses for drones / armor or turret range - it would be OP.
From my point of view it is the best Non-Pirate L4 boat if you do not want to spend more then 400-500 Milions ISK for ship + fitting.

In this fit you can swap EANM to proper armor hardener, if you know, what kind of damage you will receive in mission:
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Armageddon Navy Issue 7 x Tachyon PVE L4 mission boat]
Reactor Control Unit II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Federation Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Large Armor Repairer

Sensor Booster II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I

Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Energy Locus Coordinator I

Read more: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/68279-Armageddon-Navy-Issue-7-x-Tachyon-PVE-L4-mission-boat.html#ixzz2ndvd4OPa
Dextrome Thorphan
#26 - 2013-12-16 13:52:06 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
T2 Raven should be more than good enough.
Train for the apoc afterwards as well anyway, extra options are always useful.



T2 raven? You mean faction raven, right?
Dextrome Thorphan
#27 - 2013-12-16 13:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dextrome Thorphan
Jena Jamson wrote:
Tengus. Agile, high damage, and small sig radius.


Tengus aren't cost-effective at all. And they do definately not perform better than Ravens in L4s...


EDIT: Unless you're doing alot of missions with mostly frigs/cruisers of course. But I try to avoid those.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-12-16 16:15:05 UTC
Outside of the marauders I would say it comes down to the Dominix and the CNR if we are talking about a "one boat to run them all" approach. Between those two I would say its more personal preference than anything else.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-12-16 21:47:13 UTC
Anything blingy without some buffer tank is just begging to be ganked. And usually will be. My advice would be to keep it cheap until you can fly/afford a Marauder. Vargur or Golem would be best due to their ability to shield fit and change damage types.
Stevez Ftw
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Holdings
#30 - 2013-12-17 10:36:04 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Typhoon fleet issue is the end to all these debates every time if you're looking at DPS.

Of course, not cheap and high skills required.


TFI is beast.

[Typhoon Fleet Issue, Damsel]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Photonic CPU Enhancer I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field

Drone Link Augmentor I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
True Sansha Heavy Nosferatu

Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Warrior II x10
Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x5


Rigged for Gallante space.

Looks great but if you doing missions in big hub very quick you would get ganked by some losers. And t2fit would struggle a bit with tank. I love machariel. Quick agile. Medium to short distance. If i had skills for missiles would probably switched to TFI tho
Treborr MintingtonJr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-12-17 11:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Treborr MintingtonJr
I would recommend the dominix for ratting in general, its a very good ship to train for and cheap, I use it in nullsec because it makes interceptors think twice when trying to tackle you when you are 100km away.

In the past I have used the Raven and CNR but their damage application to frigates is painful, sentries just pop them.
Sim Cognito
Obani Gemini Corporation
#32 - 2013-12-17 16:44:14 UTC
Jena Jamson wrote:
Tengus. Agile, high damage, and small sig radius.



Massive cost, micro-managing, wastes tons of ammo.





EFT warrioring is worthless.
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#33 - 2013-12-17 17:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: I Love Boobies
All these fancy fittings with faction and deadspace gear is going to increase your chances of getting ganked. T2 is good enough to do level 4s. Believe me, I see blinged out ships getting ganked all the time.

Anyway, I started out in a Raven years ago, switched to a CNR, then got the skills for the Golem. I decided to try a Rattlesnake for a while, then since I had the skills for the Domi, I tried it out when they switched around the drone bonuses on it. I sold my Rattlesnake, and am loving the Domi.

Put a Micro Jump Drive on it, then use T2 sentries. Get easily 800dps with it. It hits the rats hard, and it kills them even faster than my 1200dps Rattlesnake did since the drones hit better with the Domi bonuses.
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#34 - 2013-12-17 18:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
"Best" non-pirate ship would be a shield tanked navy domi, simply because it has massive dps, good projection, mostly-selectable damage type. Needs some love in the tank mods (but nothing extravagant like a gist xl or deadspace invuln). Dominix wins for value, having excellent projection and near-perfect application, on top of selectable damage and no need for expensive fittings. There's also a cast to be made for the missile boats, depending on your preferences and skills.

Sim Cognito wrote:
Jena Jamson wrote:
Tengus. Agile, high damage, and small sig radius.


Massive cost, micro-managing, wastes tons of ammo.

EFT warrioring is worthless.


Tengu's are "massive cost???" The only thing that's expensive about them is faction damage mods, which are optional. The cost of a t2 fit with c-type booster is about the same as a t2 fit navy BS, which the OP is considering. Micromanaging? There's like 1 button to press and at most 2. Ammo? give me a break...

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#35 - 2013-12-17 18:25:54 UTC
I Love Boobies wrote:
All these fancy fittings with faction and deadspace gear is going to increase your chances of getting ganked. T2 is good enough to do level 4s. Believe me, I see blinged out ships getting ganked all the time.

Anyway, I started out in a Raven years ago, switched to a CNR, then got the skills for the Golem. I decided to try a Rattlesnake for a while, then since I had the skills for the Domi, I tried it out when they switched around the drone bonuses on it. I sold my Rattlesnake, and am loving the Domi.

Put a Micro Jump Drive on it, then use T2 sentries. Get easily 800dps with it. It hits the rats hard, and it kills them even faster than my 1200dps Rattlesnake did since the drones hit better with the Domi bonuses.


Sadly I've gotten to this point too. Nice to hear your experience though. I am currently considering skilling my way into a domi with 3 artillery fitted in highs, maybe even 4 I'll see. I don't see myself selling my rattler though, there are some missions where its tank is still important. But for any mission where 'sniping' isn't needed I will fly a marauder. And if it came down to 1 ship only its "Vargur all ze way bebe!".
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-12-17 18:49:43 UTC
Batelle wrote:
"Best" non-pirate ship would be a shield tanked navy domi, simply because it has massive dps, good projection, mostly-selectable damage type.


The navy version don't have the tracking and range bonus to sentry drones, so you need to spend the extra mid slot on one extra drone tracking link to get the same bonus as the T1.

If you are going to shield tank it you need to sacrifice some mobility and/or some damage projection. Ideally you want 3 drone tracking links and both mwd and mjd, which don't leave a lot of room for a shield tank. 2 tracking links and either mwd or mjd will work, but you are going to lose some range which is annoying if you are going to be using garde.

The bonus the navy issue has to hybrid guns is not all that great on a sentry domi, ideally you want 2 high slots for drone control range and with all the drone upgrades take up some much cpu it's going to be hard to fit 4 425mm rails.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#37 - 2013-12-17 19:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
dexington wrote:
Batelle wrote:
"Best" non-pirate ship would be a shield tanked navy domi, simply because it has massive dps, good projection, mostly-selectable damage type.


The navy version don't have the tracking and range bonus to sentry drones, so you need to spend the extra mid slot on one extra drone tracking link to get the same bonus as the T1.

If you are going to shield tank it you need to sacrifice some mobility and/or some damage projection. Ideally you want 3 drone tracking links and both mwd and mjd, which don't leave a lot of room for a shield tank. 2 tracking links and either mwd or mjd will work, but you are going to lose some range which is annoying if you are going to be using garde.

The bonus the navy issue has to hybrid guns is not all that great on a sentry domi, ideally you want 2 high slots for drone control range and with all the drone upgrades take up some much cpu it's going to be hard to fit 4 425mm rails.



I put "best" in quotes because best dps is obviously not the only thing worth considering. As for your criticisms of the navy domi, of course you'll find it lacking if you try to use it exactly the same as a regular domi, true you need an extra faction omnilink to get the t1 bonus, but sentry drones and the domi were plenty good before the extra bonus came in. Of course it has worse damage projection, the answer is to be closer (you can still apply 1100-800 dps to anything in a 50-85km window). If you're thinking about 2 DLAs and 3 omnilinks, you're approaching it wrong. Also mobile depots are a thing. Another reason I quoted "best" was because making good use of the navy domi is skill intensive and requires some love in the fittings, which the OP might not want to do if he's saying no pirate battleships.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-12-19 13:33:02 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
IIshira wrote:
I love the Scorpion Navy Issue and its a great ship... It will also do about the same DPS on EFT as the Raven Navy Issue. The thing is EFT doesn't tell the whole story...

The 10% bonus to velocity and 5% bonus to explosion radius per level of Caldari Battleship on the Raven Navy Issue makes it do more actual DPS.


Rigs and 2xTP's on the SNI changes the picture.. so your comment is also EFT warrior'ing Blink


The same rigs would be on the CNR so that's no difference. I wasn't EFT warrior'ing, the velocity and percent explosion radius bonuses are right in the ships description. You don't need EFT for that. How when it comes to how much 2 target painters would help compared to the CNR's explosion radius bonus I couldn't say. The best way I would think is to take the two ships into a mission and shoot identical targets then see what kills it first.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-12-19 13:47:04 UTC
I'm currently fooling around with a cruise missile Golem. If you said the words "cruise missile" and "Golem" in the same sentence before Rubicon I would have cringed but with the new MJD and Bastion it does seem to work.

Yes I know you can use the MJD to get in range with torps. I might try this too but I want to get a bit more comfortable with the tank before I do too much "in your face" DPS with it.

With real life I haven't had as much Eve time as I'd like to test it. I did "The Blockade" last night. I started it with my CNR and warped into the mission... Ugh sensor damping was driving me crazy... I go back dock up and come out with the Golem. It was awesome not having to be on top of everything and dealing with painfully long targeting times.

I did notice that ECM takes a few seconds to drop after Bastion is engaged. I'm guessing this is them finishing their cycle of ECM before you engaged Bastion?
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-12-19 15:24:52 UTC
IIshira wrote:
I did notice that ECM takes a few seconds to drop after Bastion is engaged. I'm guessing this is them finishing their cycle of ECM before you engaged Bastion?


I think you are right about the effects lasting until the cycle ends, does permanent effects like webs and scrams end right when you enable bastion mode?. I seem to remember webs and scrams also being applied for a short duration after bastion mode is enabled, if so it's might just be a static timer.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

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