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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Rubicon] Warp Speed and Acceleration

First post First post
Author
Alkyria Decile
Delstar Corp
#121 - 2013-10-03 07:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alkyria Decile
Altrue wrote:
First, thanks for finally changing this mechanic ! You rock !

Now about the changes themselves, they are pretty good... EXCEPT !

1- Attack BC should warp faster than other BCs imo.

2- Where is the orca on your chart ? Capital ship ? (If yes, this is a very bad idea imo :D)

3- You killed my rigged 20Au/sec travel rapooooor :-( (because his base warp speed will now be 10 au /sec if I read the chart correctly)



A 10 au/sec ship in rubicon will smoke a 20 Au/sec ship currently in any warp under 50 Au if my estimates based on the charts are correct. In fact i bet rigged out it would probably beat any ship under the current system at almost any feasible warp distance. Look at the big picture Shocked


Edit- And 50% longer warp times for battleships? Its already pretty boring to move them around more than a system or 2, please consider a smaller reduction in warp speeds for large ships. It already takes substantially longer just to get into warp for the larger ships, they don't need to warp for ages as well 8/
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-10-03 08:38:55 UTC
You know, if you implemented the previously suggested Don't show in local until you break your gatecloak amendment alongside this, you'll have gone a long way towards fixing the 'Local as intel tool' argument since the window of opportunity for potential targets to spot a hostile scout in local and get to safety before they land on grid will be greatly diminished.

Just thought I'd drop that thought in here.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2013-10-03 08:45:11 UTC
This change will bring a lot of nailbiting...

I mean you are an inty pilot and as you land at the gate you see a BS warping of towards two gates near each other (or celectials or wahtever).

Assuming a 50au warp, once you land you will have to wait lol almost a minute to know if you guessed right... fun times :D
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2013-10-03 09:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
Any chance we could get freighter rigs to help compensate for the slowdown since most star systems aren't beneficially huge?

Or a couple low power slots would be nice. Let freighter pilots decide between bulkheads/DCUs, cargo space, or agility. Maybe lower base capacity to balance it out.
Goran Konjich
Krompany
#125 - 2013-10-03 09:03:14 UTC
Ok thats sorted, now please drones and stuff.

I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE.

Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#126 - 2013-10-03 09:07:01 UTC
Question:

In Rubicon, the "WarpSpeedMultiplier" will now affect warp speed acceleration. Why was this parameter chosen, instead of making SHIP MASS affect acceleration?
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-10-03 09:11:45 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:
Question:

In Rubicon, the "WarpSpeedMultiplier" will now affect warp speed acceleration. Why was this parameter chosen, instead of making SHIP MASS affect acceleration?



I would like to see this too since it makes sense, but I'm guessing it is because they use mass as a balancing factor rather often and they probably feel like tying something else onto it will make it hard to adjust the stat without unintended side effects.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#128 - 2013-10-03 09:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: El 1974
I like the change in the warp mechanic, but I am less convinced about the warp speeds assigned to each ship type. The mechanics change is quite drastic. The adjustments made to the warp speeds seem insufficient to remove all the rough edges and it feels somewhat makes-shift.
Flying from one end of the universe to the other in a travel fit interceptor will now be almost as fast as when you use a cyno chain with a capital. Travel will be more about loading grid than it will be about flying your spaceship in space. An interceptor doesn't require this much speed to overtake its target.
On the other end of the spectrum the design is causing problems as well. Freighter speeds must be adjusted to avoid people not being able to make a warp between downtimes. But people complain about battleships as well. Just wait for the threadnoughts when this goes live. People will have plenty of time to post on the forums during warps.
I also noticed that in the new design the steps between each ship type are not all the same. Especially the gap between tech II cruisers and destroyers is large while their roles were reversed before.
I played around with it in a spreadsheet and came up with an alternative list which keeps Freighters at roughly the same average warp times as now, softens the nerf to the larger subcaps and made the faster ships less amazing, but still kept the interceptor twice as fast as a battleship on short warps and 3x as fast on long warps. This is more than enough to fullfil its role.
I used a base value of 2 for Freighters and increased this with 10% in each step. The warp speeds I calculated this way are shown below with between () the current and guestimated alternative warp times for a 50 AU warp:
Freighter/Titan 2 (95/62 → 69)
JF/Other Caps 2,2 (95/62 → 63)
Bs 2,4 (47 → 58)
Bs II 2,7 (47 → 52)
BC 2,9 (47 → 48)
BC II 3,2 (47 → 44)
Cr 3,5 (47 → 40)
Cr II/DST 3,9 (44/47 → 37)
De 4,3 (47 → 34)
Fr 4,7 (39 → 31)
Fr II 5,2 (39 → 28)
De II/BR 5,7 (47/37 → 25)
Int 6,3 (37/36 → 23)
Vdr
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#129 - 2013-10-03 09:52:44 UTC
While i like the new changes unless CCP`s intent is to almost kill off nullsec mining Grav sites will have to go back into scanned sigs.
There is no way that a hulk can warp out before a interceptor lands on grid even in an ideal situation.

how will this be countered?


Natasha Love
Doomheim
#130 - 2013-10-03 09:56:42 UTC
For the love of god, don't make the freighters even slower than they already are...

It's already a huge pain in the ass to do logistics and I don't see why you should hurt the people who do so much for all the other players even more...

I also don't see why a freighter should be the slowest ship to warp as there are other ships which are significantly bigger and have more mass (titans, supercaps, dreads and carriers)

Maybe you should introduce another skill bonus on freighters which makes their acceleration faster.


In total I think overall the changes make sense as the less mass you have the faster you should accelerate but I really hoped that freighters weren't going to be so much slower...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2013-10-03 10:00:57 UTC
Vdr wrote:
While i like the new changes unless CCP`s intent is to almost kill off nullsec mining Grav sites will have to go back into scanned sigs.
There is no way that a hulk can warp out before a interceptor lands on grid even in an ideal situation.

how will this be countered?





By payign attention in intel channels and having people patrolling to detect hostiles? You know its BAD mechanics that alliances can keep huge empires while having people awake only in 3-4 systems.


This is one of the best things of this expansion. Want to have 0.0 economical activities safe from interceptors and pos siphon? THen SPREAD YOUR POPULATION .. and have a daily basis organiation effort, not only answer to the blob call every 6 months.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2013-10-03 10:01:38 UTC
Natasha Love wrote:
For the love of god, don't make the freighters even slower than they already are...

It's already a huge pain in the ass to do logistics and I don't see why you should hurt the people who do so much for all the other players even more...

I also don't see why a freighter should be the slowest ship to warp as there are other ships which are significantly bigger and have more mass (titans, supercaps, dreads and carriers)

Maybe you should introduce another skill bonus on freighters which makes their acceleration faster.


In total I think overall the changes make sense as the less mass you have the faster you should accelerate but I really hoped that freighters weren't going to be so much slower...



Because those are COMBAT ships. Same way that a Nimitz carrier can move WAY faster than a cargo ship.. .even being heavier.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-10-03 10:03:52 UTC

Awesome changes.
My uber travel fit inti will be greased lightning.



Gotta say though the freighter stats need looking at.

Given that warp distances across systems tend very largelly to be in the 10 - 30 au range you have effectivelly double the warp transit times for these vessels.

It would be nicer I think to see a warp speed modifier the same as bs on these ships.

How about a table showing estimated travel times before and after for ships on a standard run lets say between Jita and Oursulaert
assuming no modification to align time or warp speed.


Retmas
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#134 - 2013-10-03 10:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Retmas
Vdr wrote:
While i like the new changes unless CCP`s intent is to almost kill off nullsec mining Grav sites will have to go back into scanned sigs.
There is no way that a hulk can warp out before a interceptor lands on grid even in an ideal situation.

how will this be countered?




a thousand times this.

Vdr and i joinly run indy for our corp, and, besides our miners themselves flat out refusing to mine in nullsec anymore due to the sheer dangers, i'm not comfortable sending them out anymore in the first place.

CCP, i seriously question if you're paying attention to the changes made even in oddessy. i cannot stress this enough - no miner with a scrap of sense will be found in nullsec after these changes. period.

it takes sixteen seconds for a hulk to align. a ceptor gang can be on top of you, in a 40 AU system, in about 14. ASSUMING perfect reactions by the miners. keeping a scout in another system is possible - if the scout is able to stare at the screen for hours on end.

i love the idea of nullified ceptors. but you've stripped the last defense from any sort of exhumer in null, and frankly they have ltitle enough going for them as stands.

and for those pvpers who want to claim "just put a scout next door" - you're telling me that a pvper can get in a single ship, by himself, and go, by himself, about his business and actually have fun, but a miner needs to run six accounts to even be bothered undocking? (one boost, one hauler, at least one scout, three exhumers.) this is unacceptable, especially when we're talking about something that you need to do for many hours on end to be profitable, and that is extraordinarily boring.

i once read a quote from miss seagull - "Enablers are the people who make the logistics for these large-scale things actually work. ... And we kind of have a history of treating these people like…****. We put these people through a lot of painful, unnecessary work."

it's the goddamn truth, and i have yet to see any sort of design decision changing that fact.

ahh, but inb4 mods claiming "this isnt the right thread for this."

i'll put a more constructive post up when it's not 6AM and i've slept, but the tl:dr of it will be - put grav sites back in sigs, or dont be surprised when nullsec mining (i.e. your source for all highend minerals - zydrine, megacyte, morphite) comes to a screeching halt.
Lifelongnoob
NerdHerd
#135 - 2013-10-03 10:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lifelongnoob
hi Fozzie

while you are tweaking warp speeds can u please increase the warp speed of freighters/jump freighters.

0.75au/s is just too slow.. even a warp speed of 1.5au/s would make life a bit easier for freighter pilots. then we freighter pilots can offer next day delivery services :P

if supers can warp at higher speeds then there should be no reason why freighters / jump freighters cant
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#136 - 2013-10-03 10:27:38 UTC
Retmas wrote:
Vdr wrote:
While i like the new changes unless CCP`s intent is to almost kill off nullsec mining Grav sites will have to go back into scanned sigs.
There is no way that a hulk can warp out before a interceptor lands on grid even in an ideal situation.

how will this be countered?




a thousand times this.

Vdr and i joinly run indy for our corp, and, besides our miners themselves flat out refusing to mine in nullsec anymore due to the sheer dangers, i'm not comfortable sending them out anymore in the first place.

CCP, i seriously question if you're paying attention to the changes made even in oddessy. i cannot stress this enough - no miner with a scrap of sense will be found in nullsec after these changes. period.

it takes sixteen seconds for a hulk to align. a ceptor gang can be on top of you, in a 40 AU system, in about 14. ASSUMING perfect reactions by the miners. keeping a scout in another system is possible - if the scout is able to stare at the screen for hours on end.

i love the idea of nullified ceptors. but you've stripped the last defense from any sort of exhumer in null, and frankly they have ltitle enough going for them as stands.

and for those pvpers who want to claim "just put a scout next door" - you're telling me that a pvper can get in a single ship, by himself, and go, by himself, about his business and actually have fun, but a miner needs to run six accounts to even be bothered undocking? (one boost, one hauler, at least one scout, three exhumers.) this is unacceptable, especially when we're talking about something that you need to do for many hours on end to be profitable, and that is extraordinarily boring.

i once read a quote from miss seagull - "Enablers are the people who make the logistics for these large-scale things actually work. ... And we kind of have a history of treating these people like…****. We put these people through a lot of painful, unnecessary work."

it's the goddamn truth, and i have yet to see any sort of design decision changing that fact.

ahh, but inb4 mods claiming "this isnt the right thread for this."

i'll put a more constructive post up when it's not 6AM and i've slept, but the tl:dr of it will be - put grav sites back in sigs, or dont be surprised when nullsec mining (i.e. your source for all highend minerals - zydrine, megacyte, morphite) comes to a screeching halt.


A miner who is ATK is aligned. You can let the inty get on grid before warping to safety.

This does hurt botting adn isBotter operations, you are correct. More profits for the rest.



.

Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#137 - 2013-10-03 10:34:16 UTC
Retmas wrote:


a thousand times this.

Vdr and i joinly run indy for our corp, and, besides our miners themselves flat out refusing to mine in nullsec anymore due to the sheer dangers, i'm not comfortable sending them out anymore in the first place.

snipped for brevity




Get a skiff, put a cyno on it. When someone "intercepts" you in the site/belt/etc, pop the cyno...watch said interceptor bug out faster than you can type "LOL" in local.

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#138 - 2013-10-03 10:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Retmas wrote:
it takes sixteen seconds for a hulk to align. a ceptor gang can be on top of you, in a 40 AU system, in about 14. ASSUMING perfect reactions by the miners. keeping a scout in another system is possible - if the scout is able to stare at the screen for hours on end.


Oh come on. Fit nanos, use a more agile miner or put a scout next door. You don't need to stare at a screen, all you need is to be able to hear a gateflash, and then have your miners warp to a few hundred km tactical so they don't waste time panic-warping 20 AU to POS/station every time a friendly jumps in but forgets to announce it in intel.

Anyway, if you're right and null mining and supply of high-ends do crash, what do you think will happen to the prices of those high-ends? You should be looking at this as an opportunity to outcompete inferior alliances' miners. Mine intelligently and reap the rewards, or just carry on acting like a generic nullbear.
Natasha Love
Doomheim
#139 - 2013-10-03 10:41:46 UTC
Lifelongnoob wrote:
hi Fozzie

while you are tweaking warp speeds can u please increase the warp speed of freighters/jump freighters.

0.75au/s is just too slow.. even a warp speed of 1.5au/s would make life a bit easier for freighter pilots. then we freighter pilots can offer next day delivery services :P

if supers can warp at higher speeds then there should be no reason why freighters / jump freighters cant


according to the new table Freighters are going to warp 1.33 AU/s and Jump Freighters 1.5AU/s - so there is a 75-100% increase in warp speed ;)
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-10-03 10:42:33 UTC
I think the covert ops is too fast both current and intended.

Interceptor should be fastest.

covert ops and combat inti to 9au, keep the tackle inti at 10au for differentiation.