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[Rubicon] Warp Speed and Acceleration

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Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#281 - 2013-10-08 04:21:28 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Seriously, this will entirely change the way pvp works, best change ever.


In a good way, no less.

My only worry is people further deserting battleships as ships of the line in fleet/sov warfare, given the relative speed at which bombers can now ping around and threaten them, but we'll have to see how this develops. On the other hand, it makes MJDs even more viable, which is a good thing.

No sig.
Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#282 - 2013-10-08 05:19:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It is definitely an increase in their average warp times, which is intentional. But it's not back breaking and I believe that it's quite well balanced in relation to their massive cargoholds. For trips where faster warp speeds are needed, people always have the choice of taking smaller volumes in something like an industrial or DST.


Here is the thing. You are correct, it is not backbreaking, but it is another kick in the gut to a profession that has been repeatedly discounted for years.

Most freighter pilots have given up on any improvements since you introduced t3 battlecruisers, and made ganking of them so cheap, that you have to fly tiny repetitive loads to move any amount of product, even thru hi-sec. No their really is not a viable way to defend them that is FUN. So to hell with it, we all fly thru space with less then 100k m3 of stuff staying under 1.5b value, afk from our keyboards. All this is doing is further reinforcing us to do all our freighter runs afk.


You don't give freighter pilots the option of fitting their ships in any way. Eve is a game of choices, of give and take, unless you fly a freighter. (or a shuttle). They are the only ship in the game where you take all the choice out of the players hand and FORCE them to either bore 10 of their friends escorting, bore 1 of their friends webbing, or fly afk.

So no, this is not backbreaking, but it's also not necessary, and a quality of life nerf that appears to have no good reason to do other then "hey we have this nifty formula we wanna use"

And no you can't just fly an indy.
It's kinda a big jump between 45km3 and 950k
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#283 - 2013-10-08 07:21:28 UTC
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
So no, this is not backbreaking, but it's also not necessary, and a quality of life nerf that appears to have no good reason to do other then "hey we have this nifty formula we wanna use"

No good reason ?! Haha ! Funny you ! Without these words I would have thought you were serious. :-)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#284 - 2013-10-08 07:51:37 UTC
Oh, just ban freighters from highsec then, or remove them entirely. The rapid transport of large volumes of materials is arguably bad for the game anyway, as it just ends up favouring the formation of a single lagtastic hub.
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#285 - 2013-10-08 09:36:40 UTC
does that chart say it will take 69seconds to warp a non plated BS 50au?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#286 - 2013-10-08 10:09:39 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
does that chart say it will take 69seconds to warp a non plated BS 50au?

Plated or not is the same, but yep, 69s for 50 au.
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#287 - 2013-10-08 11:17:35 UTC
Can you put shuttles in the BR block?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#288 - 2013-10-08 12:17:49 UTC
Angelina Duvolle wrote:

And no you can't just fly an indy.
It's kinda a big jump between 45km3 and 950k


Yep. This here is a part of "Why hauling is really boring".

See, when it comes to ship hauling (As in, transport ships from point A to point B), you have 2 solutions. Carriers and Freighters.

That's it. Orcas are very small tbh, Jumpfreighters are good but very very expensive.

There is no middle ground. It's either too small or too big.

Can't we get something like a 300k battleship-sized industrial ? Something that has tanked-cruiser EHP, while having a BS-tier agility ?
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#289 - 2013-10-08 12:30:20 UTC
Just confirming that the warp speed changes felt both great and terrible.

Frigates - interceptors = fantastic - almost as good as I wanted them to be.

Haulers .. BS ... Freighter ... well, again, as expected - but not going to love flying them and I never did.

This is one of those changes I can only like.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2013-10-08 13:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It is definitely an increase in their average warp times, which is intentional. But it's not back breaking and I believe that it's quite well balanced in relation to their massive cargoholds.


Well, at least I'll get a lot more TV episodes watched and a fair few more books read during short freighter runs. Less EVE actually played, but overall it's balanced I guess.

Seriously though, given this is there any chance of a mini-freighter at some (near) point in the future? Something maybe somewhere around 1/3 a freighter's cargo, twice it's sub-warp speed, maybe 1/3 faster align/warp acceleration and same warp speed. Same skill requirements as the current freighters. That would give us meaningful choices about moving smaller loads faster or larger loads slower.

Saying 'use a T1/T2 indy instead' just isn't practical. T1 indy maxes out at let's say 50k m3. Smallest freighter starts at over 700k m3. That's a huge disparity (and yes, I'm ignoring the Orca intentionally)
Tikitina
Doomheim
#291 - 2013-10-08 14:36:32 UTC
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It is definitely an increase in their average warp times, which is intentional. But it's not back breaking and I believe that it's quite well balanced in relation to their massive cargoholds. For trips where faster warp speeds are needed, people always have the choice of taking smaller volumes in something like an industrial or DST.


Here is the thing. You are correct, it is not backbreaking, but it is another kick in the gut to a profession that has been repeatedly discounted for years.

Most freighter pilots have given up on any improvements since you introduced t3 battlecruisers, and made ganking of them so cheap, that you have to fly tiny repetitive loads to move any amount of product, even thru hi-sec. No their really is not a viable way to defend them that is FUN. So to hell with it, we all fly thru space with less then 100k m3 of stuff staying under 1.5b value, afk from our keyboards. All this is doing is further reinforcing us to do all our freighter runs afk.


You don't give freighter pilots the option of fitting their ships in any way. Eve is a game of choices, of give and take, unless you fly a freighter. (or a shuttle). They are the only ship in the game where you take all the choice out of the players hand and FORCE them to either bore 10 of their friends escorting, bore 1 of their friends webbing, or fly afk.

So no, this is not backbreaking, but it's also not necessary, and a quality of life nerf that appears to have no good reason to do other then "hey we have this nifty formula we wanna use"

And no you can't just fly an indy.
It's kinda a big jump between 45km3 and 950k



Freighters should be eye-bleeding-ly slow. And yes, I have flown one. I just don't do it regularly.

Leaving Titans and Freighters the baseline and making everything below faster would not create the speed differences needed to make ships truly feel the size they are in-game.

To be honest, I think the bigger ships should be even slower than they are now with the new mechanic.

Complaining about the fact that the ship designed to carry the most cargo in the game is painfully slow is kind of silly in my opinion.

Of course it is! P

Just be glad I'm not a game designer for Eve Online. Blink
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#292 - 2013-10-08 14:58:49 UTC
I'm being so negative in all the other threads that i feel like i should come in here and repeat that i really like this change :P

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#293 - 2013-10-08 15:03:03 UTC
all hail the death of null/wh mining

oh, wait.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#294 - 2013-10-08 16:28:31 UTC
Tikitina wrote:


Complaining about the fact that the ship designed to carry the most cargo in the game is painfully slow is kind of silly in my opinion.




I am not crying they are painfully slow. I am crying that they are being made SLOWER for no valid reason.

Was SOMEONE complaining that they were too fast?
Was someone organizing freighter races and I missed it?


I don't know anyone advocating they be given frigate level agility, but their is no reason to nerf them at this point. If they are adding slots and rigs to them, then certainly I'd understand nerfing their base level stats down, but this is not the case.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#295 - 2013-10-08 16:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
Tikitina wrote:


Complaining about the fact that the ship designed to carry the most cargo in the game is painfully slow is kind of silly in my opinion.




I am not crying they are painfully slow. I am crying that they are being made SLOWER for no valid reason.

Was SOMEONE complaining that they were too fast?
Was someone organizing freighter races and I missed it?


I don't know anyone advocating they be given frigate level agility, but their is no reason to nerf them at this point. If they are adding slots and rigs to them, then certainly I'd understand nerfing their base level stats down, but this is not the case.





They were too fast before, there is your reason.


Actually has CCP considered increasing the min distance to do on grid warps? Because i really do think it needs to be bigger, especially with these changes.

The entire meta has become a lot faster than it was, 150km is really quite short now. Makes breaking up gangs almost impossible to do =<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2013-10-08 17:15:44 UTC
Prepare ship for ludicrous speed! Fasten all seat-belts, seal all entrances and exits, close all shops in the mall, cancel the three ring circus, secure all animals in the zoo!

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Vdr
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#297 - 2013-10-08 20:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vdr
Pant MercenaryS wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Retmas wrote:
it takes sixteen seconds for a hulk to align. a ceptor gang can be on top of you, in a 40 AU system, in about 14. ASSUMING perfect reactions by the miners. keeping a scout in another system is possible - if the scout is able to stare at the screen for hours on end.


Oh come on. Fit nanos, use a more agile miner or put a scout next door. You don't need to stare at a screen, all you need is to be able to hear a gateflash, and then have your miners warp to a few hundred km tactical so they don't waste time panic-warping 20 AU to POS/station every time a friendly jumps in but forgets to announce it in intel.

Anyway, if you're right and null mining and supply of high-ends do crash, what do you think will happen to the prices of those high-ends? You should be looking at this as an opportunity to outcompete inferior alliances' miners. Mine intelligently and reap the rewards, or just carry on acting like a generic nullbear.

I see miner safety is an issue again. Well...
When I was new and was trying to mine, we did something like this with EVE-Uni guys:
You take some fast frig, and go make loads of off-grid bookmarks around belts in your system, positioning them so that you can be nearly-aligned to any of them most of the time while slowly flying along asteroid fields mining. You'll probably need about 5-6 bookmarks to be able to circle around belts. If something enters your system, you should be able to almost insta-warp with the exception of unlucky cases when you will be caught with your pants down while re-aligning to another bookmark. Anything else is pretty normal, jettison ore in the process of mining then tractor all cans to one spot where it can be picked up by whatever indy you are using.
It can be more of a hassle for grav sites as you will need a new sets of bookmarks every time, but for belts you won't spend too much time.


The miners isn't as much of an issue as the hauler, any mid sized to large scale mining operation use freighters and rorq/orcas for hauling ore. Which incidently became alot more dangerous in the patch when grav sites can be scanned down with the normal system scanner.

Now you get a ceptor that can blitz through systems in seconds, open up system scanner and warp to the grave site, and ontop of that, the freighters and rorqs/orcas are even slower. It already takes a freighter some where between 2-3 mins from it enters warp from the station / Pos until it lands on the grav site and have aligned out. Even if you have a scout next door you have no chance of saving the freighter when a ceptor can fly trough how many systems in 3 mins? And you can't even bubble the gates to slow it down..

I am not saying the warp speed changes are a bad idea, but if this is to be implemented without completely rendering null sec mining useless you have to do some adjustments to mining.

I would suggest making it so you have to scan down grav sites again and possibly increasing the ore bay on the orca / rorqual to lessen their exposure and maybe giving them a sensor strenght bonus so they can't be scanned down that easily when they are in the grav.


Any comments on this and the entire Question of mining and gravs from CCP Fozzie?
Was the way this affects industry considered while planning this?
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#298 - 2013-10-08 20:16:47 UTC
The ability to move interceptors around EVE lightning fast (unhindered by bubbles) is balanced by the fact that they're still just interceptors--that is, until one of them fits a cyno, and suddenly your entire capfleet can react as quickly as an inty. This needs to be impossible and not just difficult to fit.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#299 - 2013-10-08 20:57:52 UTC
Some of you folks seem to think that large gangs of interceptors are going to be running amok, completely unhindered, ganking every miner and ratter, lighting off cynos everywhere, and generally ruining the game.

Don't be so silly.

The obvious counter to a gang of 5 or 20 or 50 interceptors is.... wait for it... another gang of interceptors.

The second gang doesn't even need to be fit to kill the first gang by themselves. They just need to pursue the first gang. If they catch the first gang, they only need to tackle them long enough for a backup gang of dessies to arrive and pop 'em. And, even if they don't catch them, the first gang is going to be spending most of their time running, and not doing much of anything else.
sabastyian
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#300 - 2013-10-08 21:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: sabastyian
Sizeof Void wrote:
Some of you folks seem to think that large gangs of interceptors are going to be running amok, completely unhindered, ganking every miner and ratter, lighting off cynos everywhere, and generally ruining the game.

Don't be so silly.

The obvious counter to a gang of 5 or 20 or 50 interceptors is.... wait for it... another gang of interceptors.

The second gang doesn't even need to be fit to kill the first gang by themselves. They just need to pursue the first gang. If they catch the first gang, they only need to tackle them long enough for a backup gang of dessies to arrive and pop 'em. And, even if they don't catch them, the first gang is going to be spending most of their time running, and not doing much of anything else.

Well, there is the 7-10 second "warp lag" and then the base alignment is also slower, so figure your inty gang will quickly be outrunning the dessie gang in even 3 jumps, the destroyers will nearly be 60 seconds behind ( im using 20 au systems for this ) . Also, what interceptor do you know that can catch another interceptor and stop it from burning back to the gate? If you start chasing a hostile inty gang 4 seconds after they warp, the odds of you catching even the end of their asXXs leaving the next system will be slim.

If a group of 3 taranis enter a system, they will catch a target, kill it n roughly 30 seconds, and then be gone 60 seconds after that, total time in system... 2 minutes ( at most ) Consider anything that would stand a decent chance of killing 3 taranis is going to take 20-30 seconds to just land on field from the time "help, im tackled" is spoken, that leaves 2-3 seconds to catch the intys before they are gone.