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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1821 - 2013-10-19 21:37:01 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


I think what that picture tells you is Pirate is geared more towards specialisation than navy ships are rather than you're assumption of being plain improvement over navy. .... its a big difference to note and i hope Rise also notes the difference..

That interpretation ignores the vertical arrow labelled improvement. Considering the same image was referenced for the general theme of navy being thematically a direct upgrade from T1 I would think the view that pirate > navy is supported by that image.


well unless they shrink the pair to put them next to each other than it is the only place they can put it but they don't have to put it off to the right at all.. plus the 1 higher meta means its bound to be above navy on the picture but doesn't that mean they need to be plain better than navy ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1822 - 2013-10-19 22:42:42 UTC
Xequecal wrote:

Drones_Active=Ogre II,5

That's still 700 DPS and a respectable 45k EHP, it fits with Genolution CA-1 and CA-2


& now your entire DPS is based on ogres. And you have no speed.
Meaning that during that 8 seconds anything small with a MWD burns out of your web range, then laughs at your inability to hurt them. While anything large enough for you to catch during your 8 seconds locking time can handle 5 ogres.

Still. Dropping Drone DPS, raising gun DPS solves all this issue. Because then simply the sacrifice of fitting a high slot utility instead of a gun makes for a significant DPS drop. Rather than all your DPS being PG & CPU free.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1823 - 2013-10-19 22:47:32 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


I think what that picture tells you is Pirate is geared more towards specialisation than navy ships are rather than you're assumption of being plain improvement over navy. .... its a big difference to note and i hope Rise also notes the difference..

That interpretation ignores the vertical arrow labelled improvement. Considering the same image was referenced for the general theme of navy being thematically a direct upgrade from T1 I would think the view that pirate > navy is supported by that image.


well unless they shrink the pair to put them next to each other than it is the only place they can put it but they don't have to put it off to the right at all.. plus the 1 higher meta means its bound to be above navy on the picture but doesn't that mean they need to be plain better than navy ..
That rationale suggests that CCP is incapable of producing a graphic that says what they want. It also ignores earlier versions which had pirate with no horizontal offset but directly above navy. Overall they are intended to be better. Though not always directly comparable. I'm more inclined to believe them not spacially incompetent and that the image intends what it says. I can't find the quote but I recall it even being directly stated that pirate was better but different.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1824 - 2013-10-19 22:49:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Xequecal wrote:

Drones_Active=Ogre II,5

That's still 700 DPS and a respectable 45k EHP, it fits with Genolution CA-1 and CA-2


& now your entire DPS is based on ogres. And you have no speed.
Meaning that during that 8 seconds anything small with a MWD burns out of your web range, then laughs at your inability to hurt them. While anything large enough for you to catch during your 8 seconds locking time can handle 5 ogres.

Still. Dropping Drone DPS, raising gun DPS solves all this issue. Because then simply the sacrifice of fitting a high slot utility instead of a gun makes for a significant DPS drop. Rather than all your DPS being PG & CPU free.

Ignoring that fact that ship has double web and scrambler on it?

Moving drone DPS to laser DPS makes the ship less effective for exploration fits and only helps surprise PvP fits.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1825 - 2013-10-19 22:54:55 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Xequecal wrote:

Drones_Active=Ogre II,5

That's still 700 DPS and a respectable 45k EHP, it fits with Genolution CA-1 and CA-2


& now your entire DPS is based on ogres. And you have no speed.
Meaning that during that 8 seconds anything small with a MWD burns out of your web range, then laughs at your inability to hurt them. While anything large enough for you to catch during your 8 seconds locking time can handle 5 ogres.

Still. Dropping Drone DPS, raising gun DPS solves all this issue. Because then simply the sacrifice of fitting a high slot utility instead of a gun makes for a significant DPS drop. Rather than all your DPS being PG & CPU free.

That only applies to probe fits which means the cloak+full gank variant comes out intact while screwing explorers.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1826 - 2013-10-19 23:17:51 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Ignoring that fact that ship has double web and scrambler on it?

Moving drone DPS to laser DPS makes the ship less effective for exploration fits and only helps surprise PvP fits.

Double webs + scram have limited range.
You have Cloak lock delay + lock time.
You have slow cruiser initially, with only AB to try and close range.
You can't start within 2500m or you decloak yourself anyway.

Sure you might catch the odd person.
But even then you only have 700 DPS which still won't apply perfectly due to sig size unless you are shooting a BS, since even if it's under their tracking, if it's under sig size & moving even 1m/s sig size affects DPS & 45k EHP. And are entirely drone reliant.
This is no more threatening that the cloaky T3's already are.

So what you are trying to tell me is that Cloaky T3's are OP & will break the game by being able to combat probe..... Oh wait. They haven't broken the game for years of existence already. From this I can only conclude that you are defending your T3 ships unique abilities in order to force everyone else to train T3's, rather than having viable options in the Pirate/T2 ship range to combat probe.

Yes, pushing DPS to guns won't drop the surprise gank fit DPS. Well, it actually will a bit since it will be a bonus to lasers, while the gank fits have been based on blasters. Nor does it need to drop the surprise gank fits anyway, since anyone flying in an anom should be expecting that kind of hot drop, given they only have 5 seconds from when someone hits local to warp out now before the interceptor lands on grid and tackles them possibly, if the interceptor guesses the right anom. After which the Battle cruisers follow fairly soon. So.... Gank DPS with very few targets is not a problem.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1827 - 2013-10-19 23:23:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


I think what that picture tells you is Pirate is geared more towards specialisation than navy ships are rather than you're assumption of being plain improvement over navy. .... its a big difference to note and i hope Rise also notes the difference..

That interpretation ignores the vertical arrow labelled improvement. Considering the same image was referenced for the general theme of navy being thematically a direct upgrade from T1 I would think the view that pirate > navy is supported by that image.


well unless they shrink the pair to put them next to each other than it is the only place they can put it but they don't have to put it off to the right at all.. plus the 1 higher meta means its bound to be above navy on the picture but doesn't that mean they need to be plain better than navy ..
That rationale suggests that CCP is incapable of producing a graphic that says what they want. It also ignores earlier versions which had pirate with no horizontal offset but directly above navy. Overall they are intended to be better. Though not always directly comparable. I'm more inclined to believe them not spacially incompetent and that the image intends what it says. I can't find the quote but I recall it even being directly stated that pirate was better but different.


have you seen the new golem?? there certainly not all there Shocked

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1828 - 2013-10-19 23:33:25 UTC
What do you have against the noble platypus?
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#1829 - 2013-10-19 23:35:55 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Ignoring that fact that ship has double web and scrambler on it?

Moving drone DPS to laser DPS makes the ship less effective for exploration fits and only helps surprise PvP fits.

Double webs + scram have limited range.
You have Cloak lock delay + lock time.
You have slow cruiser initially, with only AB to try and close range.
You can't start within 2500m or you decloak yourself anyway.

Sure you might catch the odd person.
But even then you only have 700 DPS which still won't apply perfectly due to sig size unless you are shooting a BS, since even if it's under their tracking, if it's under sig size & moving even 1m/s sig size affects DPS & 45k EHP. And are entirely drone reliant.
This is no more threatening that the cloaky T3's already are.

So what you are trying to tell me is that Cloaky T3's are OP & will break the game by being able to combat probe..... Oh wait. They haven't broken the game for years of existence already. From this I can only conclude that you are defending your T3 ships unique abilities in order to force everyone else to train T3's, rather than having viable options in the Pirate/T2 ship range to combat probe.

Yes, pushing DPS to guns won't drop the surprise gank fit DPS. Well, it actually will a bit since it will be a bonus to lasers, while the gank fits have been based on blasters. Nor does it need to drop the surprise gank fits anyway, since anyone flying in an anom should be expecting that kind of hot drop, given they only have 5 seconds from when someone hits local to warp out now before the interceptor lands on grid and tackles them possibly, if the interceptor guesses the right anom. After which the Battle cruisers follow fairly soon. So.... Gank DPS with very few targets is not a problem.

That is a very large wall of text that actually avoids the fact that a. Cloaking delay has not ever affected cloaky t3 and there fore will not affect this ship very much either. B. pushing the ship toward lasers hurts it as an exploration ship, every high slot beyond a cloak would remove 12.5% of the ships DPS (assuming a 50/50 DPS split)

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1830 - 2013-10-19 23:53:44 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That is a very large wall of text that actually avoids the fact that a. Cloaking delay has not ever affected cloaky t3 and there fore will not affect this ship very much either. B. pushing the ship toward lasers hurts it as an exploration ship, every high slot beyond a cloak would remove 12.5% of the ships DPS (assuming a 50/50 DPS split)

A: Cloaky T3 haven't broken the game for years & years. As I actually pointed out. And they have close to the same paper DPS, better applied DPS, and far more tank. As has been pointed out repeatedly through this thread.
And B: Oh no! Choices! Sacrifices! How dare you have to make a choice.
CCP have said, post 1 these are meant to be Laser/Drone ships. Currently they are not. Pushing them more towards laser DPS a bit also creates more fitting choices, and makes room for the Nestor to have 125 drone bay as a bonus above the cruiser (at 100 or 75), while removing the complaint of drone assist (which works with the other drone cruisers as well obviously) bypassing cloak targeting delay.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1831 - 2013-10-20 00:07:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I don't see you being active as early as I in this thread so I'm not sure where the idea of me only reading 2 lines and nothing else in the thread came from. That aside the idea you proposed was to drop 3 highslots. If leaving those same 3 highs empty doesn't accomplish your goal why did you suggest it? If it does why for it on everyone? Also even if not using the slots for guns (which several posters in the thread I supposedly haven't run ARE posting fits with guns by the way, though usually not lasers) why take away any utility options as well?

Or did you step back from the -3 high slot idea in favor of something else?

On a related note, if armor tanking DS ANP's can still help provide a substantial buffer while not touching your CPU.


I wasn't actively posting earlier as I was hoping they would arrive on SISI to be tested.

Reading back I must clarify, I never wanted the slots removed from the ship, I didn't want them tied to an all but useless bonus. I want-ed the pointless gun bonus either removed or for a dual bonus to be given. The ship as it is now has 1 usable role bonus (in a very specific role) and 1 that in rare situations may be useful, it seems most of the suggested fits are ignoring the gun bonus anyway so why not simply remove it for a bonus that opens the ship up for many more fitting options without making it any more OP than some seem to think it now is. If the 50% reduction in CPU for expanded probe launcher is wrong, how about 75% to cloak, it gives you extra cpu to play with without being too OP. Fitting trade offs are still very much needed but not going to completely nerf it.

People have said the ship would be too OP with an expanded probe launcher.. As someone else pointed out, it is in no way OP in this guise as all your dps is drones. What we could end up with would be a cruiser class ship capable of doing what now can only be done by T3's (cloak, probe) with the same damage application as an Ishtar but significantly less dps.

As for the ship being too versatile, what is wrong with a pirate class cruiser with the same abilities as a T3 (albeit less dps, less tank and significantly slower)

Quote:
What we're shooting for is ships that are themed around exploration and therefor make good platforms for a range of activities including probing, hacking, exploration combat sites, anoms, killing anom runners, spying on people, looking super sexy and generally being kind of awesome.
I see this as being achievable with a little thought and a couple of minor changes. Make it a really unique ship, let it become the T3 pirate ship (more or less)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1832 - 2013-10-20 00:51:35 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
What do you have against the noble platypus?


Christ!! where to start ..... ShockedSmile

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1833 - 2013-10-20 00:57:03 UTC
"It is in no way OP unless all your DPS is drones"

...you know very well that these ships will be fitted exclusively to take advantage of drone DPS.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1834 - 2013-10-20 01:26:15 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Ignoring that fact that ship has double web and scrambler on it?

Moving drone DPS to laser DPS makes the ship less effective for exploration fits and only helps surprise PvP fits.

Double webs + scram have limited range.
You have Cloak lock delay + lock time.
You have slow cruiser initially, with only AB to try and close range.
You can't start within 2500m or you decloak yourself anyway.

Sure you might catch the odd person.
But even then you only have 700 DPS which still won't apply perfectly due to sig size unless you are shooting a BS, since even if it's under their tracking, if it's under sig size & moving even 1m/s sig size affects DPS & 45k EHP. And are entirely drone reliant.
This is no more threatening that the cloaky T3's already are.

So what you are trying to tell me is that Cloaky T3's are OP & will break the game by being able to combat probe..... Oh wait. They haven't broken the game for years of existence already. From this I can only conclude that you are defending your T3 ships unique abilities in order to force everyone else to train T3's, rather than having viable options in the Pirate/T2 ship range to combat probe.

Yes, pushing DPS to guns won't drop the surprise gank fit DPS. Well, it actually will a bit since it will be a bonus to lasers, while the gank fits have been based on blasters. Nor does it need to drop the surprise gank fits anyway, since anyone flying in an anom should be expecting that kind of hot drop, given they only have 5 seconds from when someone hits local to warp out now before the interceptor lands on grid and tackles them possibly, if the interceptor guesses the right anom. After which the Battle cruisers follow fairly soon. So.... Gank DPS with very few targets is not a problem.


1. People do not react instantly to you decloaking. The only people you don't catch are the ones that are already aligned and up to speed, and this is very rare. You can bump to prevent a warpoff before you get a lock. Nothing bigger than a frigate will ever react fast enough to get out of overheated web range when you decloak 2km away. MWD blooms the sig and makes you lock almost instantly.

2. You're disregarding the neuts entirely. A cruiser that takes less Ogre DPS is completely ****** by the neuts and will be capped out in two cycles.

3. You can use sentry drones. You have the drone bay for it. 5 Gardes is 666 DPS and has 100% application to anything that's double webbed, regardless of what it is.

4. Cloaky Proteus tops out at 570 DPS. It has three midslots which means only one web max, which will definitely cause damage application problems with the blasters against anything smaller than a BS if you use Void. It's much better than a T3 cloaky. 700 DPS and 3 medium neuts is a lot more lethal than 570 DPS.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1835 - 2013-10-20 09:17:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Xequecal wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
So your ideia for balance is give this already overpowered ship a expanded probe launcher, and then take away 160dps?

Jesus, theres alot of stupid people in this world...


FYI: You can still do a pretty damn good gank fit with an expanded probe launcher.

[New Setup 3]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Internal Force Field Array I
Shadow Serpentis Co-Processor
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

10MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II,Navy Cap Booster 400

Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher,Core Scanner Probe I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Drones_Active=Ogre II,5

That's still 700 DPS and a respectable 45k EHP, it fits with Genolution CA-1 and CA-2


Powercreep.......... this ship is a monster, 700dps/45Ehp with cloacking and expanded probe launchers? WTF!

I hope CCP come to their senses and don't release this ships, they have to nerf the dps to 250-350 range or make this ship cost 100b isk.

The Tears Must Flow

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1836 - 2013-10-20 09:29:15 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
So your ideia for balance is give this already overpowered ship a expanded probe launcher, and then take away 160dps?

Jesus, theres alot of stupid people in this world...


FYI: You can still do a pretty damn good gank fit with an expanded probe launcher.

[New Setup 3]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Internal Force Field Array I
Shadow Serpentis Co-Processor
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

10MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II,Navy Cap Booster 400

Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher,Core Scanner Probe I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Drones_Active=Ogre II,5

That's still 700 DPS and a respectable 45k EHP, it fits with Genolution CA-1 and CA-2


Powercreep.......... this ship is a monster, 700dps/45Ehp with cloacking and expanded probe launchers? WTF!

I hope CCP come to their senses and don't release this ships, they have to nerf the dps to 250-350 range or make this ship cost 100b isk.

This ship is not going to be fit this way often (due to low EHP and CPU) In this guise yes it is OP but at a price. T2 rigs + faction CPU mod + ship cost. You want to hope it is OP. You can make pretty much any ship OP if you spend enough isk on it, don't cry simply because 1 person has no respect for his wallet and posted an OP fit.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1837 - 2013-10-20 12:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Sgt Ocker wrote:
This ship is not going to be fit this way often (due to low EHP and CPU) In this guise yes it is OP but at a price. T2 rigs + faction CPU mod + ship cost. You want to hope it is OP. You can make pretty much any ship OP if you spend enough isk on it, don't cry simply because 1 person has no respect for his wallet and posted an OP fit.


If you want to save money you can use a cheap 3% CPU implant on top of the genos and that lets you downgrade the faction co-proc to an 8m dyad co-proc, as well as equip a regular Expanded Probe Launcher I instead of the SoE faction version.
Azure Noko
CP129
#1838 - 2013-10-20 12:59:11 UTC
What about interdiction nullifier?
I think it should be on both ships.

The second cruiser with this ability for less money - that's great.

I think that SOE is more about exploration than combat...

[dreams]
Nestor - if it will have a covert ops cloak, interdiction nullifier, fast align and bonuses to scanning (sacrificing dps, ehp and all other stuff) - will be a really unique ship.
[/dreams]
Elisk Skyforge
Caldari Provisions
#1839 - 2013-10-20 13:28:37 UTC
Do you guys think projectile weapons on the Stratios would be a good idea ? will the dps going to be near the lasers ?
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#1840 - 2013-10-20 16:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Meyr
If the purpose of a vessel is intended to be in one direction (lowsec and nullsec exploration, in this instance), and a few others gimp the fit in order to make it a glass cannon, who cares? That's been a part of Eve since the beginning. The fits posted that output such huge DPS numbers are absolutely nothing you couldn't do with a cloaky Gila, Ishtar, Dominix, or Rattlesnake - except those ships can't warp cloaked.

Big deal. You still have to deal with targeting delay, being unable to cloak while targeted, the probability of having to abandon drones, and all of the other limitations that accompany using drones as a primary source of DPS in PVP.

We're not talking assigning massed drones to an instalock frigate here; these will be used on a limited basis, and in limited numbers, often solo, or with other ships such as Recons for support, making them a drone-based version of a stealth bomber, in that regard - a powerful weapon system with cloaking ability, and built-in limitations.

If you want to see how this works in PRACTICE, instead of theory, get on the test server, and ambush a ratting Ishtar with one of these fitted for 700 DPS - tell us how many times you get your butt handed to you.