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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Author
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1521 - 2013-10-09 22:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Thank you for the voice of sanity, it was feeling like me against the forces of .....? Never mind lol
Every time i get suckered in, start explaining trying to find a reasonable solution then bam same old same old.
How on earth do they all have the same attack tecnique?


Honestly, it's starting to feel like Deja Vu thanks to the fact that Bouh and his alts are here. Page after page of him arguing that the Abaddon, the Raven, and the Typhoon need to be nerfed because the Hyperion sucks. God that got old fast.

Kaarous used Redirect!

It had no effect!

Roll

ps. I think CCP has heard that you want +10 virus str, it''s not really a big secret.

But then, maybe if you post it one more time they will change their minds? Worth a try maybe?


Because your post is constructive and has substance, right?


I was merely pointing out that unproven accusations and mentioning other threads and other events in an attempt to take the spotlight off of the valid points I was trying to make (while still trying to keep it lighthearted by making a pokemon reference) was not helping the discussion move forward.

I didn't think it would be seen as trolling but you are within your rights to report whatever posts you feel have overstepped the bounds as well as reporting me as an alt for whoever.

That said, saying 5 virus strength less is 'gimping' anything borders on the ludicrous. I can do the hardest hacking content in the game currently with a 95% success rate with T1 equipment and a lv4 skill in the covops. With T2 and lv5 skill I have EVEN BETTER CHANCES with the sisters exploration frigate and cruiser.

:)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1522 - 2013-10-09 22:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevermind that T2 cov ops frigates and pirate frigates are not the same ship class.


You are indeed correct! The pirate ship is a T1 hull while the cov ops is a T2 hull.

Thus the bonuses are different with the T2 getting higher ones. That is the way it is everywhere if I am not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong)

Just gonna add this here so I don't pollute the thread too much Pirate

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Please bring all your alts out, why make it any harder for CCP than needed, you obviously feel immune from their actions, bring them all to the party and show off.Let me know how that works out for you? Ah if they ban you you can't can you.
Is the concept that more than one person disagrees so far fetched to you?

See the irony of this is that CCP known who are who's alts. The only reason to post it publicly is to influence forum readers or intimidate people, not to actually accomplish anything constructive.

Heck I don't even think he's really reporting anyone for alt posting or he'd be in for a very rude surprise.

Or of course redirection. Eh, it's a valid tactic I guess.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1523 - 2013-10-09 22:24:10 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevermind that T2 cov ops frigates and pirate frigates are not the same ship class.


You are indeed correct! The pirate ship is a T1 hull while the cov ops is a T2 hull.

Thus the bonuses are different with the T2 getting higher ones. That is the way it is everywhere if I am not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong)

Think theres a few more, keep them coming.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1524 - 2013-10-09 22:27:49 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevermind that T2 cov ops frigates and pirate frigates are not the same ship class.


You are indeed correct! The pirate ship is a T1 hull while the cov ops is a T2 hull.

Thus the bonuses are different with the T2 getting higher ones. That is the way it is everywhere if I am not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong)


I just checked, and it turns out the Devoter has the exact same +4% to armor resists that the Maller has... which is very strange, I thought T2 got bigger bonuses just because? Wait, unless... maybe, just maybe, T2 and pirate vessels have MORE hull and role bonuses rather than bigger ones?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1525 - 2013-10-09 22:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevermind that T2 cov ops frigates and pirate frigates are not the same ship class.


You are indeed correct! The pirate ship is a T1 hull while the cov ops is a T2 hull.

Thus the bonuses are different with the T2 getting higher ones. That is the way it is everywhere if I am not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong)


I just checked, and it turns out the Devoter has the exact same +4% to armor resists that the Maller has... which is very strange, I thought T2 got bigger bonuses just because? Wait, unless... maybe, just maybe, T2 and pirate vessels have MORE hull and role bonuses rather than bigger ones?

Well if you take into account the T2 resists then the total effect is more on the T2 ship.

Like if we were to translate that 4% into the topic at hand, say the covops and SOE ships had both 10% to virus strength per level but the covops had a higher base virus str over the SOE ships (2 vs 1) then you'd end up with 10 and 5 repectively even though that bonus is the same.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1526 - 2013-10-09 22:30:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Please try to scan a 3/10 and take your covert ops frigate into it and complete it, bet you cant but the SOE frigate can


First of all Omnathious, if you think 5 unbonused (for damage, anyway) light drones and no guns can crack the tank on one of those faction spawns whilst dodging fire from the rest of the rats in a 3/10, be my guest and try it. You'll die, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

It has 4 low slots, the average armor tank for a frigate only uses 3, that gives you room for a DDA.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1527 - 2013-10-09 22:34:25 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Please try to scan a 3/10 and take your covert ops frigate into it and complete it, bet you cant but the SOE frigate can


First of all Omnathious, if you think 5 unbonused (for damage, anyway) light drones and no guns can crack the tank on one of those faction spawns whilst dodging fire from the rest of the rats in a 3/10, be my guest and try it. You'll die, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

It has 4 low slots, the average armor tank for a frigate only uses 3, that gives you room for a DDA.

Nah put the whole list in there, you are immune, you think CCP Won't touch you and you can disrupt all the forums for as long as you want.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1528 - 2013-10-09 22:34:46 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Please try to scan a 3/10 and take your covert ops frigate into it and complete it, bet you cant but the SOE frigate can


First of all Omnathious, if you think 5 unbonused (for damage, anyway) light drones and no guns can crack the tank on one of those faction spawns whilst dodging fire from the rest of the rats in a 3/10, be my guest and try it. You'll die, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

It has 4 low slots, the average armor tank for a frigate only uses 3, that gives you room for a DDA.


I have a challenge for you then Bouh. Try that in a Probe. Like I said, you will die.
Anize Oramara wrote:

Well if you take into account the T2 resists then the total effect is more on the T2 ship.


True, and you said bonuses. It's not like T2s get damage built into their hull stats either. The bonuses on a T2, funny enough, are precisely the same as their T1 counterpart, they just have more of them, and unlike most T1s they get a role bonus.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1529 - 2013-10-09 22:36:01 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Please try to scan a 3/10 and take your covert ops frigate into it and complete it, bet you cant but the SOE frigate can


First of all Omnathious, if you think 5 unbonused (for damage, anyway) light drones and no guns can crack the tank on one of those faction spawns whilst dodging fire from the rest of the rats in a 3/10, be my guest and try it. You'll die, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

It has 4 low slots, the average armor tank for a frigate only uses 3, that gives you room for a DDA.


Also, with the high payouts usually assosiated with high sec exploration (guirista 3/10s and 4/10s) the pimp on those exploration ships tend to be quite high and it may well be capable of doing those combat sites.

However, 3/10 and 4/10s will be run by the SOE CRUISER that has damage bonused sentries.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1530 - 2013-10-09 22:40:40 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also, with the high payouts usually assosiated with high sec exploration (guirista 3/10s and 4/10s) the pimp on those exploration ships tend to be quite high and it may well be capable of doing those combat sites.

However, 3/10 and 4/10s will be run by the SOE CRUISER that has damage bonused sentries.


Lol, no. The "pimp" on those ships is minimal, because it's still fairly easy to swat them out of the sky with a catalyst and scoop their loot.

And I will continue to do DED sites in highsec with my Navy Omen, since it actually has some speed on it to outrun ninja looters, while the SoE ship is very sluggish.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1531 - 2013-10-09 22:43:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I have a challenge for you then Bouh. Try that in a Probe. Like I said, you will die.

best way to challenge him is to send him a PM, telling me wont get you anywhere.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1532 - 2013-10-09 22:43:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Please try to scan a 3/10 and take your covert ops frigate into it and complete it, bet you cant but the SOE frigate can


First of all Bouh, if you think 5 unbonused (for damage, anyway) light drones and no guns can crack the tank on one of those faction spawns whilst dodging fire from the rest of the rats in a 3/10, be my guest and try it. You'll die, by the way.

Second of all:

Quote:
Diminishing reutrns are a part of eve, paying a large amount for a samll gain is very common.


Within a ship class, yes. Outside of or between ship classes, no. That much is obvious from actually playing the game. Nevermind that T2 cov ops frigates and pirate frigates are not the same ship class.

Why would I take a Frigate into a 3/10. That's a cruiser level site.... kinda like.... Oh, the stratios was made for.
Also, 80 DPS doesn't crack the tank on those faction spawns? News to me. And why are you dodging fire from the rest of the rats, kill them first. You don't aim for the hardest to kill thing in the room, aim for the easiest and thin things out a bit so you can manage, then kill the hard one.

Now, in saying all that, I do feel the frigate is undergunned and could benefit from another high slot, so you can probe + 2 turrets.
And the cruiser would fit it's flavour much better with less drone DPS & more gun DPS. Since currently it is barely tolerable using lasers as it's weapons. And needs more substantial DPS bonuses to make lasers actually solid on it. Which would require dropping the drone DPS to compensate. (Which also solves the decloak and assign drones instantly issue people have raised.)
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#1533 - 2013-10-09 22:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Anize Oramara wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Please try to scan a 3/10 and take your covert ops frigate into it and complete it, bet you cant but the SOE frigate can


First of all Omnathious, if you think 5 unbonused (for damage, anyway) light drones and no guns can crack the tank on one of those faction spawns whilst dodging fire from the rest of the rats in a 3/10, be my guest and try it. You'll die, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

It has 4 low slots, the average armor tank for a frigate only uses 3, that gives you room for a DDA.


Also, with the high payouts usually assosiated with high sec exploration (guirista 3/10s and 4/10s) the pimp on those exploration ships tend to be quite high and it may well be capable of doing those combat sites.

However, 3/10 and 4/10s will be run by the SOE CRUISER that has damage bonused sentries.

I have some confidence that the frigate will be able to do 3/10 sites, but will have to confirm once they hit Sisi
Edit: After checking some stats for 3/10 overseer repair rates, i can for sure say that 5 light drones will be able to kill them. The most repair/second for them is around 5hp/s.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1534 - 2013-10-09 22:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also, with the high payouts usually assosiated with high sec exploration (guirista 3/10s and 4/10s) the pimp on those exploration ships tend to be quite high and it may well be capable of doing those combat sites.

However, 3/10 and 4/10s will be run by the SOE CRUISER that has damage bonused sentries.


Lol, no. The "pimp" on those ships is minimal, because it's still fairly easy to swat them out of the sky with a catalyst and scoop their loot.

And I will continue to do DED sites in highsec with my Navy Omen, since it actually has some speed on it to outrun ninja looters, while the SoE ship is very sluggish.


Good luck getting a catalyst to catch any but the most noob of highsec carebears. The short range would mean it would probably get killed by rats before it could get to the frig orbiting who knows where while the drones sort out the rats.

That said I have been quite surprised at how cheap some of the dedspace armor tank stuff is these days and would be quite interested in seeing how that would effect the SOE ships' performance.

I have been quite impressed at the performance of AFs for example and even the ishkur(sp? the frigate one) and they can easily do 3/10s.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Deviant X
Deviant Inc
#1535 - 2013-10-09 22:57:43 UTC
This back and forth is driving me nuts. It's a pain to sift through the muck to read insightful ideas.

I think we need to wait and see if there is a BS in the works. All indicators say .... YES. Place holder bunk model? check. Place holder stats? Check.

I still feel CCP is trying to provide a linear improvement for combat sites:

Frigate: hi-sec.
Cruiser: hi-sec and low-sec.
Battle Ship: All the above plus null and WH.

It would be AWESOME if they did BC for null and BS for WH.... just saying. I know that's not going to happen as zero pirate factions have dedicated BC's. But one could hope.

Perhaps a comment from a dev on the goal, vision for each ship?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1536 - 2013-10-09 23:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Deviant X wrote:
This back and forth is driving me nuts. It's a pain to sift through the muck to read insightful ideas.

I think we need to wait and see if there is a BS in the works. All indicators say .... YES. Place holder bunk model? check. Place holder stats? Check.

I still feel CCP is trying to provide a linear improvement for combat sites:

Frigate: hi-sec.
Cruiser: hi-sec and low-sec.
Battle Ship: All the above plus null and WH.

It would be AWESOME if they did BC for null and BS for WH.... just saying. I know that's not going to happen as zero pirate factions have dedicated BC's. But one could hope.

Perhaps a comment from a dev on the goal, vision for each ship?

Well there is THIS comment from CCP Rise that might shed some light?
CCP Rise wrote:
The cruiser missing the Cloak CPU bonus is intentional, the CPU is set with that in mind.

If you guys can show me fits that you feel SHOULD work with the cloak and don't because of missing the bonus please let me know, but we were able to run 6/10s with it set like this and it gives it some interesting tradeoffs when deciding what to do with it.


The cruiser can do 6/10s, that's a low sec site. The frig can do 2/10s easily and maybe even 3/10s, those are securely high sec.

It's a thought.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1537 - 2013-10-09 23:11:13 UTC
Here I was, happily reading the new replies and keeping to myself for once, and then I saw this. Let's begin.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:

That is understandable, also from an explorers point of view it would be crazy to take an astero over a covert ops at the moment, paying more to take a ship that does it's core role less well would make no sense.I also understand why you would be reluctant to hope that the ship rebalancing the covert ops is due would give it new life, that has not always been the case.
Currently though,The covert ops will still be able to do everything it did before and will benefit greatly from the new warp changes.the ship is losing none of it's capabilities.


I am an explorer. It is what I do. I travel 15, 30, 45 jumps from my home system to find interesting places whose names and scenery I have never seen before. Along the way, I scan. If I see something I like, I will investigate it. Wormholes, analyzer sites, combat sites, beacons, anything. From my point of view, it's crazy to take a Covops for this.

A Covops, while small and slick and fast, forces me to skip combat sites, ignore DED plexes, stay away from the Abandoned Shipyard or Decayed Pirate Ruins on my overview beckoning for further investigation. It also has a disturbingly small cargo hold, meaning I can't just jump from gate to gate and site to site. I have to stop and empty the damn thing because it keeps filling up. Sometimes this means abandoning useful loot like datacores or the new loot for making the new T2 scanning equipment. It's annoying and frustrating and it adds slowness, restriction and tedium to something that would otherwise be enjoyable.

The SoE ships will, if their combat ability is not blunted too much, set me free to explore the way I want to.

I will sell my Cheetah in less than one-tenth of a second and fly a Stratios, even with only +5 virus strength. I'd fly the Astero if I didn't think it looked terrible, and I'll probably give the finished aesthetics a chance on SiSi anyhow.

By the way, an exploration ship's so-called "core role" is not limited to hacking. An exploration ship must be capable of finding sites, be they combat or analysis, and then completing those sites. If anything, I'd argue that a covops ship cannot complete combat sites at all and thus performs its "core role" as an exploration ship less well than the proposed SoE ships.

Quote:

Who in their right mind would use a subpar ship instead of the covert ops for exploring, and as for PvE a warping cloak does nothing for PvE.
Personally i think the SOE ships should not be able to fit a combat scanner, they should require at least the same skills as the covert ops,or have the currently proposed limited scanning and hacking skills until the skills are gained,the astero should be at least twice as expensive as the covert ops.


Who in their right mind would go out exploring in a ship that forces them to abandon potential earnings because it cannot hope to even attempt combat? Speaking of combat, warping while cloaked does nothing for PvE? Have you ever been in hostile space even once?

As far as probe launchers go, if you look more closely, you'll find that these ships are already pre-nerfed to very heavily discourage the use of expanded launchers. Certainly you'll be able to fit one, but it's more along the lines of shoehorning than actually fitting. You'll pay a significant price in fittings for trying to fit a covops cloak and an expanded launcher to either ship, especially the Stratios which has no CPU bonus for covops cloaks.

One last thing - Cost is not a balancing factor. It doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in serious discussion.

Quote:

T3's are a really different issue, I am not experienced in them but the general opinion is that they are currently broken anyway.I cannot see them losing the cloak and exploration abilities though either way, but again the price and skill differentiation still applies.


Your commentary on T3s probably should have stopped at the point where you admitted to not being experienced in them. As a Loki pilot, allow me to enlighten you a bit. Currently, highsec exploration as a whole is pointless in a T3; either the ships are denied entry at the acceleration gate or a smaller and faster ship is overwhelmingly better. Lowsec exploration is a little better for T3s, but not too much; you still see some gates that deny entry and the sites aren't particularly hard, meaning you don't really need that virus bonus. Furthermore, since it's lowsec, speed and agility are of the essence and a frigate always has more of these than any cruiser. The only place in lowsec where a T3 is truly useful are DED 5/10s and 6/10s. Lowsec is generally much more populated and thus much more dangerous than the vast majority of nullsec and so you'll find that a covops cloak is essential or possibly even required. The covops cloak, however, comes at the cost of significant DPS loss (in the case of the Legion it neuters your DPS into near-uselessness).

When you move into nullsec and WH exploration, you can start getting better usefulness out of your T3. The gates stop refusing to let you kill the rats beyond them and the sites are hard enough for that +10 strength to be something other than grossly overkill. If you add a nullifier onto that covops cloak because of bubbles, you suddenly find that you've slashed your T3's exploration ability - in some cases tremendously. Believe me, the parts of a T3 that people find to be broken are not the exploration-related ones. They're complaining about the nullifier, the command links, the tank a T3 can mount, the enormous DPS provided by the "popular" subsystems.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1538 - 2013-10-09 23:27:07 UTC
Oh by the way, not a lot of point using your alts to try and goad me, I have informed CCP, Formally that the sheer amount of trolling with multiple identities, has made it completely pointless to attempt to use the forums for their intended purpose.
I will no longer be attempting intelligent discussion as It is impossible to identify real identifies amongst the trolls and alts.
Suckering someone along into trying to find solutions and agreement between seemingly irreconcilable differences then bam ha ha you fell for it is trolling,and I may return when CCP clears this garbage out and allows the forums to function.
Good bye and thanks for all the crap.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1539 - 2013-10-09 23:29:54 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Oh by the way, not a lot of point using your alts to try and goad me, I have informed CCP, Formally that the sheer amount of trolling with multiple identities, has made it completely pointless to attempt to use the forums for their intended purpose.
I will no longer be attempting intelligent discussion as It is impossible to identify real identifies amongst the trolls and alts.
Suckering someone along into trying to find solutions and agreement between seemingly irreconcilable differences then bam ha ha you fell for it is trolling,and I may return when CCP clears this garbage out and allows the forums to function.
Good bye and thanks for all the crap.

The irony here is incredible
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1540 - 2013-10-09 23:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Oh by the way, not a lot of point using your alts to try and goad me, I have informed CCP, Formally that the sheer amount of trolling with multiple identities, has made it completely pointless to attempt to use the forums for their intended purpose.
I will no longer be attempting intelligent discussion as It is impossible to identify real identifies amongst the trolls and alts.
Suckering someone along into trying to find solutions and agreement between seemingly irreconcilable differences then bam ha ha you fell for it is trolling,and I may return when CCP clears this garbage out and allows the forums to function.
Good bye and thanks for all the crap.

The irony here is incredible

Placeholder When I can consider a reply to you (insert list here) that does not break all forum rules, I will place it here.
Enjoy your forum, you will not have a lot of fun when it is just your alts arguing with yourself.
Placeholder place response such as is permitted from CCP here.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE