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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Fr00b Snap
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1121 - 2013-10-06 11:22:44 UTC
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
I'm fairly confident that the cruiser hull can achieve a good passive tank with a 1600mm plate, and if it can do 700+ dps I will take out its target pretty quickly.



Cloaky Proteus can do 600+ dps with much better tank.


Your not telling me anything I don't already know... What is your point? That the stratios should be better than a t3? Straight


I`m telling you that it is tradeoff dps for tank and i do think that Stratios should be better than Proteus in terms of cloaky ganking. Because T3`s were supposed to be able to everything that specialised ships do, but less efficiently. Stratios is in fact specialised ship according to OP to cloaky gank people.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1122 - 2013-10-06 11:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Covert Ops ships are T2 ships, note they also get a +10 Virus strength.
T3, while not T2 are on the same post as T2 begin advanced ships and they get the +10 virus strength.
Exploration frigates are T1 ships and get a +5 virus strength.

These ships while being pirate ships are still T1 ships there Meta level is 8 which is where there powe comes from but they are still T1 ships and therefore only get a +5 virus strength like all T1 ships.


Your poor logic doesn't help your weak arguments.

The stratios is an exploration ship regardless of it being t2 or t1 so there is no reason for it not to be one of the best hacking ships in the game. As far as i know, there are no npc in data and relic sites so even if the soe had +10 virus strength, people will still use the t2 cover ops frigates because it is better at scanning down sites, amongst other things.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1123 - 2013-10-06 11:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
I'm fairly confident that the cruiser hull can achieve a good passive tank with a 1600mm plate, and if it can do 700+ dps I will take out its target pretty quickly.



Cloaky Proteus can do 600+ dps with much better tank.


Your not telling me anything I don't already know... What is your point? That the stratios should be better than a t3? Straight


I`m telling you that it is tradeoff dps for tank and i do think that Stratios should be better than Proteus in terms of cloaky ganking. Because T3`s were supposed to be able to everything that specialised ships do, but less efficiently. Stratios is in fact specialised ship according to OP to cloaky gank people.


And where does it say that T3 is not meant to be as good/better that t2? That's just something people have made up, proven by the fact T3 ships are the way they are.

I agree that is it okay for the soe cruiser to have more dps than a cloaky proteus because a pro has double the tank.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1124 - 2013-10-06 11:38:37 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Ah proof
Is that the same person who in 2 different threads has plus 1 archeology and tech 2 relic analysers at the same time? , the same proof where he had a direct line to the core and no nastys? In null really i called bs then and i call bs now.
Yes i do know how to use forum search.

There's the system on the screenshot as well as the initial hacking state and the final one. Hence that *prove* you *can* do it.

So yes, statisticaly you can have a bad luck and have 10 sites in a row with 3 nasty nodes juste in front of your spawn, but you will need to go in a long test sequence to retrieve the statistical balance of things, whereas the ability to do a site with no bonus is easy to test.

Now, the problem we have for "reliable ability to complete sites" testing is that you can discard the tests you don't like to build the conclusion you want whereas the the simple "ability to complete site" only need some good tests to prove itself.

But have fun if you want to go this road.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1125 - 2013-10-06 11:42:36 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

In the end, the Stratios is only a navy cruiser with cloak. Yes that's powerful, but that's all the 300M overprice will give you.


then don't buy one. Plenty of people will.

I'm not complaining. I'm actually saying the Stratios is fine and a nerf would make it underpowered for all jobs it's designed to do.

Well actually I am complaining, but it's about the whiners here who fear the "power" of this ship when it actually have nothing exceptional but the cloak, and the cloak won't save when engage in a brawl in scram range.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1126 - 2013-10-06 11:49:27 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
ps. T3 ships don't get any virus bonuses FYI

Pyfa tells me the opposite : emergent locus subsystem have +10 virus bonus.

And in the grand scheme of things, pirate ships are better T1 ships, but T2 ships are more specialized. In this regards, the Stratios is very versatile with cloak and firepower, but would take on T2 exploration ships properties with more bonus to probe or virus.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1127 - 2013-10-06 11:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Rek Seven wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Covert Ops ships are T2 ships, note they also get a +10 Virus strength.
T3, while not T2 are on the same post as T2 begin advanced ships and they get the +10 virus strength.
Exploration frigates are T1 ships and get a +5 virus strength.

These ships while being pirate ships are still T1 ships there Meta level is 8 which is where there powe comes from but they are still T1 ships and therefore only get a +5 virus strength like all T1 ships.

ps. T3 ships don't get any virus bonuses FYI

Yes they do.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1128 - 2013-10-06 11:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Covert Ops ships are T2 ships, note they also get a +10 Virus strength.
T3, while not T2 are on the same post as T2 begin advanced ships and they get the +10 virus strength.
Exploration frigates are T1 ships and get a +5 virus strength.

These ships while being pirate ships are still T1 ships there Meta level is 8 which is where there powe comes from but they are still T1 ships and therefore only get a +5 virus strength like all T1 ships.

ps. T3 ships don't get any virus bonuses FYI

Yes they do, try flying one before you start saying what they can and cant do.



Oh yeah you are right. I apologize for my mistake. It doesn't change my point though, I still think your argument is flawed. No offence intended.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1129 - 2013-10-06 12:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Now, the problem we have for "reliable ability to complete sites" testing is that you can discard the tests you don't like to build the conclusion you want whereas the the simple "ability to complete site" only need some good tests to prove itself.

But have fun if you want to go this road.[/quote]

No but although quite possible, i. Do not want to consider that, he would have had to be pretty foolish to disregard all the difficuilt ones and only show easy to prove his point,too easy to get caught out. assuming all genuinely done,it still in no way represents the reality of null in tranquility.
It is posssible that the op always has amazing luck and all the others who have horrible minigames are unlucky, we believe that +5 is great for hisec, marginaly helpful for lowsec and just not good enough with the current algorithm for assigning difficuilty and death-spawns in null.
As they say your mileage may vary.
If it stays at +5 I see no reason for this exploration ship. I actually have a helios, so no I am not actually complaining because I cannot do them as some have assumed and attacked on that basis, I am complaining because there will be no reason to use these beautiful new "exploration" ships because they won' t be.
They will be PvE or PvP ships not explorers.
Why should I take a nerfed useless ship into relic sites? I'll just use my helios.
So another Gnosis then.
So in conclusion I request CCP rise raises the virus strength to ten, BECAUSE I DAMN WELL WANT TO REQUEST IT.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1130 - 2013-10-06 12:15:46 UTC
stop compareing the ships to t3.....cause in t3 balance you will compare t3 to sisters of eve and hac's
and if you balance sisters of eve now at t3 benchmark youll just turn in circles at t3 rebalance

balance the ships at what they schould be capable of and what not.
for example:
they should kill a t1frigate that tries to gank em Attention
they should run every XYZ lvl ded Question
they should be able to gank missioning battleships in low easy TwistedArrowNO!
........
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1131 - 2013-10-06 12:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
No but although quite possible, i. Do not want to consider that, assuming all genuinely done,it still in no way represents the reality of null in tranquility.
It is posssible that the op always has amazing luck and all the others who have horrible minigames are unlucky, we believe that +5 is great for hisec, marginaly helpful for lowsec and just not good enough with the current algorithm for assigning difficuilty and death-spawns in null.
As they say your mileage may vary.
If it stays at +5 I see no reason for this exploration ship. I actually have a helios, so no I am not actually complaining because I cannot do them as some have assumed and attacked on that basis, I am complaining because there will be no reason to use these beautiful new "exploration" ships because they won' t be.
They will be PvE or PvP ships not explorers.
Why should I take a nerfed useless ship into relic sites? I'll just use my helios.
So another Gnosis then.
So in conclusion I request CCP rise raises the virus strength to ten, BECAUSE I DAMN WELL WANT TO REQUEST IT.

The ship will be *perfect* for lowsec.

I've done all sites with an Imicus, and the Stratios will be able to do all combat sites of lowsec.

And yes, there is absolutely no reason to use these ships only for relic/data sites. They are not supposed to replace covops in this matter. The whole point of these ships is to be able to do relic/data sites ON TOP of being able to fight ! So YES, covops SHOULD BE better for relic/data sites only, but the covops will never do combat sites, and that's what these ships are supposed to be better than covops at.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1132 - 2013-10-06 12:20:55 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
stop compareing the ships to t3.....cause in t3 balance you will compare t3 to sisters of eve and hac's
and if you balance sisters of eve now at t3 benchmark youll just turn in circles at t3 rebalance

balance the ships at what they schould be capable of and what not.
for example:
they should kill a t1frigate that tries to gank em Attention
they should run every XYZ lvl ded Question
they should be able to gank missioning battleships in low easy TwistedArrowNO!
........

Thank the heavens common sense the rarest commodity in EvE.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1133 - 2013-10-06 12:24:41 UTC
CCP Rise, remember the Dominix.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1134 - 2013-10-06 12:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
No but although quite possible, i. Do not want to consider that, assuming all genuinely done,it still in no way represents the reality of null in tranquility.
It is posssible that the op always has amazing luck and all the others who have horrible minigames are unlucky, we believe that +5 is great for hisec, marginaly helpful for lowsec and just not good enough with the current algorithm for assigning difficuilty and death-spawns in null.
As they say your mileage may vary.
If it stays at +5 I see no reason for this exploration ship. I actually have a helios, so no I am not actually complaining because I cannot do them as some have assumed and attacked on that basis, I am complaining because there will be no reason to use these beautiful new "exploration" ships because they won' t be.
They will be PvE or PvP ships not explorers.
Why should I take a nerfed useless ship into relic sites? I'll just use my helios.
So another Gnosis then.
So in conclusion I request CCP rise raises the virus strength to ten, BECAUSE I DAMN WELL WANT TO REQUEST IT.

The ship will be *perfect* for lowsec.

I've done all sites with an Imicus, and the Stratios will be able to do all combat sites of lowsec.

And yes, there is absolutely no reason to use these ships only for relic/data sites. They are not supposed to replace covops in this matter. The whole point of these ships is to be able to do relic/data sites ON TOP of being able to fight ! So YES, covops SHOULD BE better for relic/data sites only, but the covops will never do combat sites, and that's what these ships are supposed to be better than covops at.

.....??? So combat support/espoinage ship with relic and data analysers bolted on should be the definitive exploration ship?
And it has not had it's rebalance yet.
So... No
These ships are not just for doing combat sites, where did that idea come from certainly not from ccp, they specified very clearly what they expected and that was certainly not what they see it as.
Relic and data sites 40 jumps from a base would be exploring would it not? Stratios with +10 just right helios not so much. Oh and good luck with doing all combat sites in a stratios, I think they said ded6 a 10 would prove ..... Interesting

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1135 - 2013-10-06 12:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise, remember the Dominix.


allthough i understand you and sympathize with you this is no valid argument ...

you could say Rise remember the tempest? (ppl said they'll suck and they do so)

(this is also no argument, players are sometimes right and somtimes wrong but which, that can only be proven by facts)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1136 - 2013-10-06 12:28:25 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
stop compareing the ships to t3.....cause in t3 balance you will compare t3 to sisters of eve and hac's
and if you balance sisters of eve now at t3 benchmark youll just turn in circles at t3 rebalance

balance the ships at what they schould be capable of and what not.
for example:
they should kill a t1frigate that tries to gank em Attention
they should run every XYZ lvl ded Question
they should be able to gank missioning battleships in low easy TwistedArrowNO!
........

The point of comparing it to T3 is not to make it as OP as T3 are. It is to show that the role the Stratios will take (stealth gank ship) is already filled by T3 and that nobody ever complained about that for them despite their OPness. The OPness of T3 come from their ehp, their ability to bypass bubles, their ability to be better at link than command ships, and their ability to be better than battleships in combat fit ; all this in one hull.

But I've never ever heard about cloaky gank fit being a problem (except in carebears tears of course).

From this we can assess that the power of cloaky T3 is not too big (because several years of field testing would have shown it already).

Hence, a cloaky ship worse than a cloaky T3 should not cause any damage to the game.

PS : you don't need a cloaky T3 to gank a pve BS in lowsec...
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1137 - 2013-10-06 12:29:15 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
No but although quite possible, i. Do not want to consider that, assuming all genuinely done,it still in no way represents the reality of null in tranquility.
It is posssible that the op always has amazing luck and all the others who have horrible minigames are unlucky, we believe that +5 is great for hisec, marginaly helpful for lowsec and just not good enough with the current algorithm for assigning difficuilty and death-spawns in null.
As they say your mileage may vary.
If it stays at +5 I see no reason for this exploration ship. I actually have a helios, so no I am not actually complaining because I cannot do them as some have assumed and attacked on that basis, I am complaining because there will be no reason to use these beautiful new "exploration" ships because they won' t be.
They will be PvE or PvP ships not explorers.
Why should I take a nerfed useless ship into relic sites? I'll just use my helios.
So another Gnosis then.
So in conclusion I request CCP rise raises the virus strength to ten, BECAUSE I DAMN WELL WANT TO REQUEST IT.

The ship will be *perfect* for lowsec.

I've done all sites with an Imicus, and the Stratios will be able to do all combat sites of lowsec.

And yes, there is absolutely no reason to use these ships only for relic/data sites. They are not supposed to replace covops in this matter. The whole point of these ships is to be able to do relic/data sites ON TOP of being able to fight ! So YES, covops SHOULD BE better for relic/data sites only, but the covops will never do combat sites, and that's what these ships are supposed to be better than covops at.

.....??? So combat support/espoinage ship with relic and data analysers bolted on should be the definitive exploration ship?
And it has not had it's rebalance yet.
So... No
These ships are not just for doing combat sites, where did that idea come from certainly not from ccp, they specified very clearly what they expected and that was certainly not what they see it as.
Relic and data sites 40 jumps from a base would be exploring would it not? Stratios with +10 just right helios not so much.

Exploration encompasses anything cosmic signature you scan down, gravimetric sites were even lumped into that a while ago, but now exploration is combat, relic, data sites and wormholes.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1138 - 2013-10-06 12:34:40 UTC
I agree ALL OF THOSE. So being able to explore would be rather nice, and please stop quoting your test,you will never convince us that your test replicates the experience we see every day, you may not believe us, but we would not be so persistant if we did not believe our own eyes.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1139 - 2013-10-06 12:35:41 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
.....??? So combat support/espoinage ship with relic and data analysers bolted on should be the definitive exploration ship?
And it has not had it's rebalance yet.
So... No
These ships are not just for doing combat sites, where did that idea come from certainly not from ccp, they specified very clearly what they expected and that was certainly not what they see it as.
Relic and data sites 40 jumps from a base would be exploring would it not? Stratios with +10 just right helios not so much.

Hell, I'll explain more slowly :

A ship with +5 virus bonus can do sites in lowsec.

The Stratios can do combat sites in lowsec.

The Stratios ALSO have +5 virus bonus, so the Stratios can ALSO do relic/data sites in lowsec.

Hence, the Stratios is able to do ALL sites of lowsec.

No other ship but T3 share this abilities.

Hence Stratios AND T3 are the BEST ship to do exploration as a whole in lowsec.

If you don't care about combat sites, you don't need combat ability.

Hence Half the Stratios is USELESS.

Hence a covops will be better for relic/data sites only.

If you want to do everything in nullsec, you have the T3 which can do everything, from combat to relic/data with +10 virus bonus. Look :

Stratios will not be ideal for real nullsec combat sites (not enough tank).

So if Stratios get +10 virus bonus, it will only do relic/data sites in nullsec.

So its combat cabilities will be USELESS.

Hence the Stratios is not ideal for nullsec, but nevermind, T3 already fill the gap.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1140 - 2013-10-06 12:38:48 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I agree ALL OF THOSE. So being able to explore would be rather nice, and please stop quoting your test,you will never convince us that your test replicates the experience we see every day, you may not believe us, but we would not be so persistant if we did not believe our own eyes.

If you don't believe screenshots, there's nothing we can do for you, and you contribute nothing to the discussion as you refuse facts. There would be then no reason we even read you, because you would only be a stubborn idiot it's impossible to discuss with.