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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1061 - 2013-10-05 20:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Oh CCP Rise, can you make it so the salvage drones on the cruiser are bonused to enable the salvage of the more difficult ships? Not going to be easily dock to swap for a salvage module or call up a noctis when away from home.it will save salvage drones chewing endlessly on a ship they can never salvage no matter how high the salvage drone skill is.the asteros will never be able to kill a ship where this matters i think so less relevant.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1062 - 2013-10-05 20:12:53 UTC
Reth Alithes wrote:
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Reth Alithes wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Nerfing drone DPS in any way will make Stratios useless for lowsec DED`s.


While I'm concerned about it being overpowered in PvP, this is absolutely true, unfortunately. You need fairly high DPS to be able to break overseer tanks.

I think the best solution is a 6/3/6 slot layout, that lets you fit a prop mod and relic/data analyzer for exploration mode, allows 4 guns + cloak and probe launcher, and balances heavy drone DPS in PvP by not allowing a dual-web fit, and therefore reducing the applied DPS of heavy drones.
You don't actually need that much dps to break an overseer's tank. Only about 400 of their weakest resist to kill most of them. And this ship doesn't have the tank to be able to do any of the harder (8/10 +) DED sites.

You can reduce the drone dps of this ship without stopping its ability to finish DED sites because it can't tank the DED sites where the drone dps actually matters.


If you reduce drone dps not a single person will use it for lowsec deds, everyone will just continue using Ishtar. If dps needs to be reduced for whatever reason, then it should be done in some other way, removing or reducing turrets hardpoints comes to mind.

Reducing turret hardpoints wouldn't do anything but shift the design focus of the ship away from the intended "Lasers and Drones". Beyond the fact that 4 unbonused turrets do pathetic dps, they would also make it that much harder to be cap stable and I wouldn't be surprised if many fits just forgo turrets.

4 DDAs push the ships DPS up to 772 with Ogre IIs and 731 with Garde IIs

The whole "Lasers and Drones" were because laser charges are small and last a long time, the ships main DPS is its drones and will be considered a drone ship. Nerfing the ships main DPS usually makes players unhappy.

The ships should be more like the Astero and pull its DPS from drones but just have some utility high slots and no turret hardpoints at all.

4 Heavy Pulse Lasers with Scorch do 132 DPS, Neutron Blasters will get 162 with Null, and 200 with Navy antimatter.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Amarr Priest
Doomheim
#1063 - 2013-10-05 21:21:36 UTC
To me for the cruiser version to really be effective at running DED sites, it needs to have enough DPS to run a 6 of 10 solo otherwise all you have is another high sec explorer ship with a useless cloak. For pvp it is actually not too bad for its role but it needs to be able to use a covert cyno. Also the turrets need a 5% per level damage bonus that would give it the damage to kill an overseer in a 6 of 10.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1064 - 2013-10-05 21:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Do you guys even know how EVE works?

The 700-800 DPS numbers with Ogres are POINTLESS and STUPID. It's called EFFECTIVE DAMAGE APPLICATION.

Believe it or not, the number DPS you see in EFT will NOT be the actual damage applied by your Ogres - try using Hammerheads to see how much DPS will actually be applied.
Reth Alithes
The Weasel Den
#1065 - 2013-10-05 21:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Reth Alithes
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

4 DDAs push the ships DPS up to 772 with Ogre IIs and 731 with Garde IIs

845 and 800.

4DDA = 845 & 800
3DDA = 793 & 751
2DDA = 701 & 663
1DDA = 584 & 554

All of these before guns.

Quote:
Do you guys even know how EVE works?

The 700-800 DPS numbers with Ogres are POINTLESS and STUPID. It's called EFFECTIVE DAMAGE APPLICATION.

Believe it or not, the number DPS you see in EFT will NOT be the actual damage applied by your Ogres - try using Hammerheads to see how much DPS will actually be applied.

After reading this entire thread you have said this about 15 times or so. It has been refuted that the ship has enough mid slots to make said "EFT numbers" into actual effective damage either via omnis, navigation computers, webs, or Tps. I suggest you finally take the time to read others responses instead of parroting the same sentence over and over like a broken record.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1066 - 2013-10-05 21:27:53 UTC
Reth Alithes wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

4 DDAs push the ships DPS up to 772 with Ogre IIs and 731 with Garde IIs

845 and 800.

4DDA = 845 & 800
3DDA = 793 & 751
2DDA = 701 & 663
1DDA = 584 & 554

All of these before guns.

And those numbers are pointless.

Before your Ogres even reach the cruiser you're trying to agress, you'll be dead. Even if they do, they'll miss half the time. Actual DPS is around 400 for 3 DDAs, which really isn't that bad.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1067 - 2013-10-05 21:33:17 UTC
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Nerfing drone DPS in any way will make Stratios useless for lowsec DED`s.


This is true. Drone DPS is difficult to apply to many things; this would just make running DED sites inefficient and useless.
Fr00b Snap
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1068 - 2013-10-05 21:45:26 UTC
Reth Alithes wrote:
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Reth Alithes wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Nerfing drone DPS in any way will make Stratios useless for lowsec DED`s.


While I'm concerned about it being overpowered in PvP, this is absolutely true, unfortunately. You need fairly high DPS to be able to break overseer tanks.

I think the best solution is a 6/3/6 slot layout, that lets you fit a prop mod and relic/data analyzer for exploration mode, allows 4 guns + cloak and probe launcher, and balances heavy drone DPS in PvP by not allowing a dual-web fit, and therefore reducing the applied DPS of heavy drones.
You don't actually need that much dps to break an overseer's tank. Only about 400 of their weakest resist to kill most of them. And this ship doesn't have the tank to be able to do any of the harder (8/10 +) DED sites.

You can reduce the drone dps of this ship without stopping its ability to finish DED sites because it can't tank the DED sites where the drone dps actually matters.


If you reduce drone dps not a single person will use it for lowsec deds, everyone will just continue using Ishtar. If dps needs to be reduced for whatever reason, then it should be done in some other way, removing or reducing turrets hardpoints comes to mind.

Reducing turret hardpoints wouldn't do anything but shift the design focus of the ship away from the intended "Lasers and Drones". Beyond the fact that 4 unbonused turrets do pathetic dps, they would also make it that much harder to be cap stable and I wouldn't be surprised if many fits just forgo turrets.

When 95% of this ships dps is tied up in drones you can't really reduce the turret hardpoints and say to yourself "Yeah, we made a significant impact on its damage."

And I really wouldn't say that nerfing the drone dps would make people not want to use it over the ishtar. The Stratios easier to get into, it has a scanning bonus, it has a hacking bonus, and it doesn't have to rely on a MWD + Improved cloak trip to safely get past gatecamps, and to top it off more agile and can bail out in under 5 seconds if someone appears on grid. The 20% resists across the board also give it better tanking options against non-guristas/serpentis that the Ishtar just doesn't have.


Ok, then lets sum up Stratios abilities in case if drone dps is nerfed.
Inferior to cov ops in scanning and hacking/analyzing
Inferior to Ishtar in running lowsec deds
Inferior to Proteus in ganking people running signatures/anoms
Superior to everything in looking sexy
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1069 - 2013-10-05 22:02:01 UTC
Reth Alithes wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

4 DDAs push the ships DPS up to 772 with Ogre IIs and 731 with Garde IIs

845 and 800.

4DDA = 845 & 800
3DDA = 793 & 751
2DDA = 701 & 663
1DDA = 584 & 554

All of these before guns.

And this is why you shouldn't try to math immediately after waking up from a nap.

But my point stands, guns are not needed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1070 - 2013-10-05 22:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Reth Alithes wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

4 DDAs push the ships DPS up to 772 with Ogre IIs and 731 with Garde IIs

845 and 800.

4DDA = 845 & 800
3DDA = 793 & 751
2DDA = 701 & 663
1DDA = 584 & 554

All of these before guns.

And this is why you shouldn't try to math immediately after waking up from a nap.

But my point stands, guns are not needed.

Good thing no one is making you fit guns on it.

Have fun tanking with 3 DDAs. Especially PvE.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1071 - 2013-10-05 22:26:30 UTC
We will see what happens with these once they hit Sisi on Monday. Till then further argument about paper DPS and speculated functionality is pointless.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1072 - 2013-10-05 22:35:19 UTC
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Ok, then lets sum up Stratios abilities in case if drone dps is nerfed.
Inferior to cov ops in scanning and hacking/analyzing
Inferior to Ishtar in running lowsec deds
Inferior to Proteus in ganking people running signatures/anoms
Superior to everything in looking sexy

Or one could do the same while taking into account its T1 status, even if it is faction:
Superior to everything probing related sans dedicated probers at probing.
Superior to most everything dps related sans dedicated dps boats (no need to single out the Ishtar).
Almost equal to all other pirate hulls in versatility/power, except the "WTF!" Phantasm.
Inferior to T3 in just about everything because T3 have been broken as hell for years.
Superior to everything in looking sexy (unless its made hippie rainbow coloured or something Smile).

DPS is fine at 'close to OP' as long as it has some drawback, personally suggested taking off the drone EHP bonus as it focuses it onto the PvE side of things without killing it if PvP is ones poison.
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1073 - 2013-10-05 22:43:02 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Do you guys even know how EVE works?

The 700-800 DPS numbers with Ogres are POINTLESS and STUPID. It's called EFFECTIVE DAMAGE APPLICATION.

Believe it or not, the number DPS you see in EFT will NOT be the actual damage applied by your Ogres - try using Hammerheads to see how much DPS will actually be applied.


QFT as thread is so full of stupid I want to punch a cow.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1074 - 2013-10-05 22:44:14 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Fr00b Snap wrote:
Ok, then lets sum up Stratios abilities in case if drone dps is nerfed.
Inferior to cov ops in scanning and hacking/analyzing
Inferior to Ishtar in running lowsec deds
Inferior to Proteus in ganking people running signatures/anoms
Superior to everything in looking sexy

Or one could do the same while taking into account its T1 status, even if it is faction.


This is a PIRATE ship. Not just a faction ship. Pirate ships are supposed to be far more superior than T1 ships, much better than navy faction ships, and better than T2 ships.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1075 - 2013-10-05 23:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
ConranAntoni wrote:

QFT as thread is so full of stupid I want to punch a cow.


I agree, so many people throwing around glass cannon numbers for these things on 15k EHP fits that no one in their right mind would actually use (3-4 DDA's? yeah right). Most people will be brought to their senses after they lose one or two of these things because they thought it was a solopwnmobile, and everyone else will point and laugh.

Can't wait until this comes out on SiSi.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1076 - 2013-10-05 23:04:52 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
This is a PIRATE ship. Not just a faction ship. Pirate ships are supposed to be far more superior than T1 ships, much better than navy faction ships, and better than T2 ships.

Better than T2 true, but not everything at the same time and about par with navy at the single focused navy aspect whichever it may be.
The thing that betrays the SoE Cruiser is the slot layout, it simply has way too many ways to about its business so either it is focused somewhat or something else has to give .. closest comparative hull is the Cynabal but with its damage being gun focused even that powerful ship has only some of the versatility afforded by a 5/5/5 drone platform.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1077 - 2013-10-05 23:09:12 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
This is a PIRATE ship. Not just a faction ship. Pirate ships are supposed to be far more superior than T1 ships, much better than navy faction ships, and better than T2 ships.

Better than T2 true, but not everything at the same time and about par with navy at the single focused navy aspect whichever it may be.
The thing that betrays the SoE Cruiser is the slot layout, it simply has way too many ways to about its business so either it is focused somewhat or something else has to give .. closest comparative hull is the Cynabal but with its damage being gun focused even that powerful ship has only some of the versatility afforded by a 5/5/5 drone platform.


But the thing is, it is not superior to T2 ships.

Proteus is better at cloak & gank.

Anathemas are better at exploration.

Normal pirate cruisers have more DPS.

Recon ships have undeniably better EWAR.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1078 - 2013-10-05 23:09:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
How's this for better stats?


Astero

Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +10(+5) Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists
OR
+5m^3 drone bay per level

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to drone hitpoints
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and optimal range

Slot layout: 3H(+1), 4M, 3L(-1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 32 PWG, 170 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-80) / 660(+60) / 620(+20)
Capacitor (amount) : 430
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 312 / 2.87 / 975000 / 3.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37km / 620 / 6
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 35
Cargo Capacity: 210


Stratios

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
Role Bonus: 37.5% bonus to Energy Turret tracking and optimal range
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 3 turrets (-1) , 0 launchers
Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1450(-500) / 2400 / 2450
Capacitor (amount) : 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 20
Signature radius: 150
Cargo Capacity: 550


What these changes accomplish:

ASTERO:
The Astero is made a better frigate overall - with the loss of a lowslot, there is now potential for better drone application and better damage. It should be great for doing the lowest level complexes and blitzing L1s and L2 in hostile space - maybe even better performance in wormhole space! Since there's no gun bonus and not too much tank, it won't be overpowered when it comes to PvP. The +5 virus strength will be a welcome bonus to those of us who do sites in nullsec (this can be changed back if it overshadows other ships too much). The loss of shield HP makes it so this can not be turned into an OP PvP brawler because of 4 mid slots.

STRATIOS:
The loss of a turret slot on the Stratios minimizes the potential for the neutron fits that some people think are OP (despite them being complete glass cannons)- yet damage application will be better for PvE'ers, making this ship more capable in PvE and less capable in PvP. The loss of shield HP prevents the efficiency of pure shield gank fits.
Soko Lsi
SASART Corporation
#1079 - 2013-10-05 23:38:19 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
How's this for better stats?


Astero

Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +10(+5) Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists
OR
+5m^3 drone bay per level

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to drone hitpoints
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and optimal range

Slot layout: 3H(+1), 4M, 3L(-1); 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 32 PWG, 170 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 480(-80) / 660(+60) / 620(+20)
Capacitor (amount) : 430
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 312 / 2.87 / 975000 / 3.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37km / 620 / 6
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 35
Cargo Capacity: 210


Stratios

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
Role Bonus: 37.5% bonus to Energy Turret tracking and optimal range
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 3 turrets (-1) , 0 launchers
Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1450(-500) / 2400 / 2450
Capacitor (amount) : 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 20
Signature radius: 150
Cargo Capacity: 550


What these changes accomplish:

ASTERO:
The Astero is made a better frigate overall - with the loss of a lowslot, there is now potential for better drone application and better damage. It should be great for doing the lowest level complexes and blitzing L1s and L2 in hostile space - maybe even better performance in wormhole space! Since there's no gun bonus and not too much tank, it won't be overpowered when it comes to PvP. The +5 virus strength will be a welcome bonus to those of us who do sites in nullsec (this can be changed back if it overshadows other ships too much). The loss of shield HP makes it so this can not be turned into an OP PvP brawler because of 4 mid slots.

STRATIOS:
The loss of a turret slot on the Stratios minimizes the potential for the neutron fits that some people think are OP (despite them being complete glass cannons)- yet damage application will be better for PvE'ers, making this ship more capable in PvE and less capable in PvP. The loss of shield HP prevents the efficiency of pure shield gank fits.


Finally, a well thought out post. I agree with the Stratios part 100%, don't really care about the frig, but it looks better as well. CCP Rise please note this, it is what we want :)
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1080 - 2013-10-05 23:42:40 UTC
I will reserve all further thought until I have a chance to test them.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.